Paladin's Quest / Lennus, 3 years later (orchestral)

[adept]

Hallo Forum,

This is an orchestral remix containing various songs from the SNES game Palandin's Quest (aka Lennus).

The current revision is #98, uploaded for Mod Review.

The remix is unusually long (16 minutes) owing to the fact that it has been in development for 3 years.

Since I improved skills along the way, the tendency for the remix is to become better towards the end.

Many times, themes from the game are combined with or arranged in the style of the movie Hook.

You will find the following combinations:

Bright Homeland (Paladin) + Granny Wendy (Hook) as Leitmotiv

Calamity (Paladin) + Lost Boy Chase (Hook) as slapstick interlude

Holy Sanctuary (Paladin) + Mermaids (Hook)

Momentary Peace (Paladin) + Remembering Childhood (Hook) = "Remembering Peace"

Bright Homeland (Paladin) + Farewell Neverland (Hook) = "Farewell Naskuot" towards the end

Furthermore, the 'battle alarm' from Robin Hood is used with the battle themes, which occurs a second time at the very end.

Source breakdown

00:00 – 00:22 Lennus Ouverture

00:32 – 01:17 Momentary Peace

01:38 – 02:12 Momentary Peace II

02:12 – 02:40 Awakening Dal Gren

02:48 – 03:10 Calamity

03:20 – 03:35 Calamity II

03:49 – 04:18 freestyle – "Holy Mermaids"

04:18 – 04:37 Holy Sanctuary

04:37 – 05:45 freestyle – cont.

05:55 – 07:09 freestyle – "Sunrise over Naskuot"

07:09 – 08:15 Bright Homeland

08:15 – 09:05 freestyle – "Homeland Voyage"

09:15 – 10:07 Battle on the Plains

10:10 – 10:45 Fated Confrontation

10:53 – 11:07 Battle on the Plains II

11:35 – 11:50 Grand Victory

12:03 – 13:10 freestyle – "Remembering Peace"

13:31 – 15:09 freestyle – "Farewell Naskuot"

15:09 – 15:57 freestyle – End Titles

Remix:

https://soundcloud.com/adept_ocr/paladins-quest-rev-98

Collection of source material:

https://soundcloud.com/adept_ocr/source

Game walkthrough:

Enjoy, and comments welcome.

This was the original forum post (may 2010)

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Hi forum, I am new to ocremix.

I'm going to post an orchestral take on Paladin's Quest (Lennus).

This WIP focuses on the technical execution of the orchestral sound. Do not expect fancy or original composition. It's a straight cover.

- The remix was not based on a MIDI or sheet, it's all derived from listening to the source.

- Every track was live recorded without quantization.

- Proportional/differential controller used throughout (mod-wheel).

- Instruments: combintation from EWQLSO silver + Garritan Personal Orch

I feel that the remix went very reminescent in style of "gone with the wind"-kitsch. Hence the name.

Original chip sound:

http://snesmusic.org/v2/profile.php?profile=set&selected=1951

Remix:

Feedback very much appreciated!

Thanks

Edited November 16, 2013 by adept
Mod Review

[Anti-Syne]

This is really nice, it's got a really nice human feel to it and it comes across as very expressive. There's just a couple of points where I think it loses this realism which is a real shame, these points being when the strings play quick notes at about 0:40 and again the strings at about 1:20, at these points the strings sound very synthesised/ midi like. Apart from that for me it's near perfect.

I'm no expert on orchestration as I focus on electronic synthy music, but there's loads of people on here that are experts on orchestration, so hopefully they can give you better feedback than me.

Oh and welcome to the forum!

[phantasia]

I thought it was pretty good. Nothing spectacular so far, but you really had something going towards the end. If you can expand on that into an even stronger crescendo I think it would be awesome. Perhaps some more percussion?

[Monobrow]

First off... Paladin's Quest... Excellent source <3

I like this... Once it gets to the slow section, it's really nice.

You have a nice full orchestral sound going... Very cinematic actually. Very John Williams.

Keep going and don't be afraid of more flute...runs etc. as the slow stuff progresses.

Nice treatment. Afraid I can't comment too much right now because I feel I should hear more first. What's required to really sell this is in the details honestly.

Anyway finish this please because I love Paladin's Quest :J

Edit: turn up your woodwinds...Especially the flutes in the later sections of the WIP (the more John Williamsey parts)

[adept]

Hallo there!

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm taking note.

Update:

- its grown longer (now at 3:50)

- contains 2 songs from Paladins Quest (Lennus Overture and Momentary Peace) at the moment

- the song Awakening Dal Gren is coming next

- since there is much more thematic variety now, the previous name is no loner suitable. its called "Paladins Suite" (how imaginative!)

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@Monobrow

Did you mean at 2:00? I think the flute is alright at being barely noticeable under a full orchestra. If taken in isolation the flutes are set to the same loudness as for instance the cello. But I can make the "player" blow harder, as there is still some room in the mod-wheel.

[Dash Myoku]

This makes me jealous...I want fantastic sounding instruments like those to use. D:

Either way, I'm not familiar with the source...but who cares, this is a very fantastic remix and as such...I have no critique for it. ._.

Honestly though, what do you use for your orchestra sounds?

[Subz1987]

I've been listening to this for around 10 minutes before realizing that it was looping. Couldn't tell when it was looping.

This is absolutely awesome. This is the best sounding orchestra remix I've ever heard.

[Monobrow]

@Monobrow

Did you mean at 2:00? I think the flute is alright at being barely noticeable under a full orchestra. If taken in isolation the flutes are set to the same loudness as for instance the cello. But I can make the "player" blow harder, as there is still some room in the mod-wheel.

Yeah, at 2:00.

I think it's not so much as blowing harder, as just a small volume issue. My impression was just that I heard it, but barely... Every time I hear a song that uses this motif, I always really like it, and notice it in a good way... It's subtle but noticable... IMO it's just a tiny bit too subtle, and thusly it's not going to be fully appreciated. So it's mostly like, you want to keep it subtle... But my initial reaction was that it wasn't enough... My advice is, only on the first few initial notes of the run, bring the volume of those flutes up subtly, or lower the volume a tiny bit in contrast of other overpowering instruments just for those few notes, but just a TINY bit... I don't need to hear the whole run to know where it's going.

Anyway, it's kind of odd, because the highest notes in those flutes should be loud and noticable anyway, just because that part of the spectrum isn't being filled up, like the mids and most of the lows are (they are bulging)... Maybe a tiny EQ on the flutes to find more of a sweet spot in those higher ranges could help. It's really not about loudness, but about balance to me... My ears want to hear that high B flat from that flute when it starts the run.

I hope this makes sense.

Something else I noticed... I think the harp might be a little too clashing in spectrum (in terms of resonance) with other instruments... at like 1:40 ish... Not sure what you could do, would it be possible to raise it an octave? That might not be the right choice though... It's a small thing...

Like I said before, the selling point of this song is in the details... It's sounding really nice and fleshed out now, all I think that needs to be worked on is embellishments here and there, subtleties in velocity/dynamics (which you already have going) and balance. And basically an extreme acute attention to details in the end. Your strings are great, but they could flow a little bit better here and there, not sure if the samples you are using completely hinder this, but anything you can do, tricks etc., to keep the strings sound more fluid would be awesome.

Can't wait to hear what you do with the last section. Great work

[adept]

Update

I converted the whole project to GPO-4, which I now use exclusively.

Here is the latest version, including louder woodwinds and more expressive brass:

[FunkyEntropy]

If I had to make one comment about this remix, it would be that the balance is a little top-heavy. There is too much emphasis on the upper register instruments - ie. flute, oboe, violin, trumpet, 1st/3rd horn. Throw in some bass clarinet or block chords in the trombones to keep things interesting.

What you've got so far is great, but I think some additional depth would help.

[adept]

Alright ... and good suggestion. There is no tuba and no basson. Never occurred to me that currently only the strings have a bass instrument.

[adept]

there is a finished version available, see the first post in the beginning of this thread

http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29244

Edited October 23, 2013 by adept

[adept]

Since the feedback I got from outside OCR is generally positive, I have now bumped the thread to Mod Review.

- Low bass (< 100 Hz) has been reduced a little

- Minor changes and note fixes

- Which part do you like best / consider especially well-made?

- What about loudness and production value?

- Do you think a long piece (16:00) is acceptable?

https://soundcloud.com/adept_ocr/paladins-quest-rev-98

[Rozovian]

This WIP focuses on the technical execution of the orchestral sound. Do not expect fancy or original composition. It's a straight cover.

- The remix was not based on a MIDI or sheet, it's all derived from listening to the source.

- Every track was live recorded without quantization.

- Proportional/differential controller used throughout (mod-wheel).

- Instruments: combintation from EWQLSO silver + Garritan Personal Orch

Not a straight cover, it's a medley. Which, like straight covers, isn't quite what ocremix is about. I'm guessing this would be rejected for that before other arrangement, sound, or other considerations. It's length is a contributing factor, but I guess that's because your method seems to be to transition into new sources. it flows fairly well, and the choice of sources, or how they're used, makes for a compelling structure. But it's still stupidly long, making it difficult to analyze for people coming from tracks that average at a quarter of its length.

I did notice it was a bit sample-y in the beginning. I'm not sure to what extent I just tuned that out, and to what extent you improved over the course of the track, but it was noticeable. Either because of the intro or for other reasons, it never fooled me into thinking it was real, but it's close enough for that to not be particularly detracting. I imagine this would sit comfortably next to stuff by Jeremy Robson, Nutritious, Archangel, and a bunch of other orchestral remixers on ocr.

I don't know the sources well enough, and as it's a stupidly long track with a stupid amount of sources, I'm not even gonna try to analyze that whole aspect of it. Someone with a better grasp of how to analyze long tracks, and with a better grasp of the source would do a better job at that anyway. By your own admission, it's a cover (which means it's a medley), so it wouldn't get past the panel anyway. Feel free to sub it anyway. I could be wrong, the judges might have some better feedback for you, and it could clarify some stuff on cover-medleys.

Quite enjoyable, difficult to analyze, medley.

[timaeus222]

- Do you think a long piece (16:00) is acceptable?

https://soundcloud.com/adept_ocr/paladins-quest-rev-98

Ignoring every other condition, yes, a 16 minute piece is acceptable, but not recommended unless you are confident in your source breakdown abilities and can accurately write out the source usages where the claims are viable to act as true source usage. In fact, source breakdowns are recommended for remixes longer than 7 minutes, though for 4 minutes it's still very helpful.

[adept]

Thanks to both of you for taking your time.

Not a straight cover, it's a medley. Which, like straight covers, isn't quite what ocremix is about.

That comment of mine "It's a straight cover" was true in 2010, when the song was only what you hear up to the first minute. Today I would no longer say that. I would say it's 60%-70% direct source and 30%-40% rearrangement.

I did notice it was a bit sample-y in the beginning.

And I thought that was the least sample-y part! In my opinion the worst case are fast brasses at the very end.

This is an almost GPO-only production now. My original comment said that there is also EWQL silver in it but this is not true anymore. The EWQL didn't survive the transition to Mac, and I am happier with a dry sample library anyways, but I miss the punchier brasses. Today, the only instrument that does not come from GPO is the piano (from Sampletank free), because the switching of velocity layers on the GPO piano is too noticeable for the piano solo part.

GPO is notorious for its lifeless brass samples. Even with attack at maximum there is hardly any frequency content above 6 kHz. Truly depressing. I tried what I could. I used EQ and harmonic distortion to excite some higher frequencies. I used CC to shape the envelope more attack-y. Such tricks helps a bit but I can't go mad with this unless destroying everything.

Could you recommend some inexpensive library with more expressive brasses? EWQL is ruled out, they have to be dry. I was eyeing for Philharmonik but I hear that the samples are old (but not necessarily bad).

I imagine this would sit comfortably next to stuff by Jeremy Robson, Nutritious, Archangel, and a bunch of other orchestral remixers on ocr.

thanks

I don't know the sources well enough, and as it's a stupidly long track with a stupid amount of sources, I'm not even gonna try to analyze that whole aspect of it. Someone with a better grasp of how to analyze long tracks, and with a better grasp of the source would do a better job at that anyway. By your own admission, it's a cover (which means it's a medley), so it wouldn't get past the panel anyway. Feel free to sub it anyway. I could be wrong, the judges might have some better feedback for you, and it could clarify some stuff on cover-medleys.

BTW, I have prepared a collection of all the sources I used. Maybe you missed that because the link is buried deep in the edit of the first post:

https://soundcloud.com/adept_ocr/source

Ignoring every other condition, yes, a 16 minute piece is acceptable, but not recommended unless you are confident in your source breakdown abilities and can accurately write out the source usages where the claims are viable to act as true source usage.

Can you link to an example of such a breakdown?

I would really like to get this accepted.

[swansdown]

I enjoyed it. It is difficult for me to say what I like or don't like, because it's so long. I want to break it up into smaller pieces to listen to each a few times over.

The other medley's on ocremix tend to be shorter, not spending as much time on each section.

Gabe Terracciano & Shnabubula

Metroid - Suite for Violin and Piano

Scaredsim

Illusion of Gaia - Will is the Lord

Russel Cox

E.V.O. - Evolutionary Means

What you may want to do if the medley cover isn't accepted, is break things up into elements of 2-4 minutes long and make separate submissions. Tweex did an entire album of orchestral mixes for FF XI, choosing to submit only 2 to ocremix (A Descent Challenge and Battling Despair at Dawn). I could imagine you doing the same, really.

Good luck I'm glad you like Paladine's Quest enough to remix it.

[Powell D]

The music sounds really nice. Is there a chance I could use it in my Lennus remake? https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/588558-paladins-quest/79140559