The Man With the Machine Gun: FFVIII

[mirev]

I'm working on this remix of "The man with the Machine Gun" from Final Fantasy 8, got a short background melody partially finished, then realized I had the notes wrong, so I'll be going back over it, but I think it still sounds nice. Have a hear, let me know what you think.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers

EDIT: FINAL version one: http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers_five_seven

[Gario]

I'm keeping a list of how many Laguna remixes are coming out in the WIP forums, this year. I think the count is close to 8 or 9, atm... I love you, man. I can't blame anyone, though - it IS a sweeeet source to work from, lol. I'm really considering making a 'Laguna' remix album from all these remixes coming out on here.

As for the remix itself, it's a completely different approach to the track than anyone else has taken (which took me completely by surprise, here). The quality of the sounds are pretty good and the arrangement is fairly interesting. It's like a spiritual version of the source, which is interesting and fairly enjoyable.

The soundscape is pretty quiet on this one, although because of the sound you're trying to get out of it it's fairly difficult to fill. It does need to be filled, though - otherwise it sounds unfinished. I highly recommend filling the emptier parts with some ambient sound (trees rustling, perhaps, an animal chirping/making noise, etc.). That way the soundscape will fill out in a non-obtrusive way.

The volume is pretty quiet, due to the soundscape. It won't get too much louder, either, if you want to keep the sound you've got going, here. A little volume with some limiting could take this to a new height, here .

It's a touch repetitive, overall. While I hear all of the variations you're doing, there, the theme you use doesn't change, nor do the harmonies. It makes the piece pretty static and numbing, after a while... I personally think it's great like that as a ambient track you'd play in the background of something else, but not as something you'd sit down and really listen to on your own. The J's will hold that against you - OCR doesn't really want ambient tracks on there, if that's what you're shooting for.

The synths+guitar are a bit lame, here, compared to the instruments you used. Fortunately they aren't too prominent, there, so it doesn't take too much from the track. Some more subtle sounds may be the way to go, there (like a few of the background synths I hear, periodically).

I like it. Keep up the good work. It's not quite an OCR track, but it's actually pretty nice, for what it is.

[mirev]

I'm keeping a list of how many Laguna remixes are coming out in the WIP forums, this year. I think the count is close to 8 or 9, atm... I love you, man. I can't blame anyone, though - it IS a sweeeet source to work from, lol. I'm really considering making a 'Laguna' remix album from all these remixes coming out on here.

As for the remix itself, it's a completely different approach to the track than anyone else has taken (which took me completely by surprise, here). The quality of the sounds are pretty good and the arrangement is fairly interesting. It's like a spiritual version of the source, which is interesting and fairly enjoyable.

The soundscape is pretty quiet on this one, although because of the sound you're trying to get out of it it's fairly difficult to fill. It does need to be filled, though - otherwise it sounds unfinished. I highly recommend filling the emptier parts with some ambient sound (trees rustling, perhaps, an animal chirping/making noise, etc.). That way the soundscape will fill out in a non-obtrusive way.

The volume is pretty quiet, due to the soundscape. It won't get too much louder, either, if you want to keep the sound you've got going, here. A little volume with some limiting could take this to a new height, here .

It's a touch repetitive, overall. While I hear all of the variations you're doing, there, the theme you use doesn't change, nor do the harmonies. It makes the piece pretty static and numbing, after a while... I personally think it's great like that as a ambient track you'd play in the background of something else, but not as something you'd sit down and really listen to on your own. The J's will hold that against you - OCR doesn't really want ambient tracks on there, if that's what you're shooting for.

The synths+guitar are a bit lame, here, compared to the instruments you used. Fortunately they aren't too prominent, there, so it doesn't take too much from the track. Some more subtle sounds may be the way to go, there (like a few of the background synths I hear, periodically).

I like it. Keep up the good work. It's not quite an OCR track, but it's actually pretty nice, for what it is.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, this is my first song that I've actually done so any information you have for me is gladly accepted.

Here is a further developed mix, which fixes the notes and adds the second portion of the song to the melody. I'm personally trying to make it a semi-progressive mix that transitions to different instruments throughout the tune, with an abrupt fadeout at the end to conclude. I plan to add a few more background sounds to the mix and equalize the instruments so they won't over power one another. Let me know what you think.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers2

[Cyril the Wolf]

background sounds is def something that needs to be added.

I think it could still come up in volume just a little bit. I feel this version gets repetitive toward the end.

I'm of the opinion that the stereo field needs to be filled out more. However you do that is up to you of course, but i would love to hear more instruments coming in from the right or left.

cool track too!

[mirev]

background sounds is def something that needs to be added.

I think it could still come up in volume just a little bit. I feel this version gets repetitive toward the end.

I'm of the opinion that the stereo field needs to be filled out more. However you do that is up to you of course, but i would love to hear more instruments coming in from the right or left.

cool track too!

Thanks for the info, I've filled in the background some more and fixed a few note inconsistencies, added a few seconds to the track, brought in some new instruments, and rose the volume, along with doing some equalizing. I'd say I'm close to finished on this one, still have a few inconsistencies to repair, but I'm liking how it sounds. Let me know what you think.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers3-1

[No Escape]

Ok, I'll shoot a quick review as well. One things no is touching here is timing. This song's timing gets mega sloppy in a few parts, and it's pretty obvious (the biggest one being at 0:47). It's impressive that you play your leads (like me), but you gotta get it down tight. Also, as the song progressed, I got that very familiar ad lib feeling (thats how I record my leads generally), but not the warm and fuzzy one. It sounds like you "one taked" it with whatever setting you were using and picked the best one to keep. Some parts have good solid harmonies while others are almost dissonant. Don't be afraid to break it up into different tracks (I don't even have the chops to play a track full through on any instrument). This is one of my more negative reviews, but I think if you're like me, it'll help you out immensely. I didn't really step up my game until I heard The Unholy Wars by Sixto. So I'll say keep at it and impress me with your revisions

[mirev]

Ok, I'll shoot a quick review as well. One things no is touching here is timing. This song's timing gets mega sloppy in a few parts, and it's pretty obvious (the biggest one being at 0:47). It's impressive that you play your leads (like me), but you gotta get it down tight. Also, as the song progressed, I got that very familiar ad lib feeling (thats how I record my leads generally), but not the warm and fuzzy one. It sounds like you "one taked" it with whatever setting you were using and picked the best one to keep. Some parts have good solid harmonies while others are almost dissonant. Don't be afraid to break it up into different tracks (I don't even have the chops to play a track full through on any instrument). This is one of my more negative reviews, but I think if you're like me, it'll help you out immensely. I didn't really step up my game until I heard The Unholy Wars by Sixto. So I'll say keep at it and impress me with your revisions

Thanks for the info, I'm very aware of the timing and the sloppiness, one of the things that needs to be repaired. Also, the reason I'm playing it all out is because Cubase 5 won't let me select parts of a track in the millisecond range, and wants to grab everything in half second chunks, so I can't make any loops. I've grown accustomed to this major annoyance(Which I hope I can fix in the settings somewhere), so if you know how to make cubase's selection tool more sensitive, please let me know.

[mirev]

Here is my latest version, it still needs a ton of work, but it sounds pretty good in my opinion so far. The instruments are different than the previous versions. Let me know what you think.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers4-1

[No Escape]

Alright, I hear what you're trying to do, but this track still is not there yet. If Cubase won't allow you to loop, then either seek out one of the many knowledgeable Remixers on this site that can help (I can't, since I've personally never used Cubase), or use a program that's free like FL studio (which I believe most of the sequencing oriented Remixers use, including me) and you're in business. The timing issue will constantly haunt you if you don't sort it out in some way. Here are a few examples of the same source that you're covering, so you can see how high the bar is (and these are only WIPs, not finished products).

Anti- Synes mix

HeWhoisIam's mix

Gario's mix

I can see that you're trying, but sometimes you gotta change the way you do things a little to make a product better (I now sequence all my drums because I couldn't play in time)

Good luck!

Aaaaauctually, there may be a thread somewhere within this vast community on different DAW's. Any vets happen to know?

[Gario]

Mmm... I'm not sure if there's a place dedicated to DAW options. There probably is, but it's never been my concern.

I'm sure Cubase can do whatever you need it to do, since it's pretty much top of the line stuff, from what I hear. FL can get the job done, but it certainly isn't free - only the demo is free, which is a pain since it doesn't allow you to save your projects. Reaper is probably a better choice if you're looking for a free product - it has a fully functioning demo that never expires. You need a license to publish anything on it, but it's quite functional.

I'm stuck with Reason 3.0, which doesn't have nearly the functionality of these other programs. Reason is a pretty reliable sequencer as well, though... it just can't use any common soundfonts, vst/vsti plugins or the like, only Reason specific 'refills'. Alas.

Um... I lost track of where we... Oh! A new version

Wooooooaaaaaaah... this is WAY different from the older version, there. Well, let's see what we've got, here...

That drum set is annoying. It just seems to get in the way, as it is. Personally, I would simply remove the drums entirely, since the ambient nature of the track really speaks for itself (and it would change the quality of the off-timing that's rampant throughout the track). They just... don't fit. You need something a whole lot less intrusive, if you want drums in this (shakers, light Japanese percussion, all hats, etc.. something that isn't so heavy).

The synths really stick out like a sore thumb, here. They just don't mesh well with the more 'real' instruments you've got going in here. Mix them more into the background and add some reverb (not much, but some) so they blend with the other instruments better.

The 'real' instruments need some humanization, here. Personally, without the drums I feel the off-kilter effect of the beat helps in this regard, but changing the dynamics to imitate a person playing the instruments would help a great deal more. Playing with the attacks and releases of the samples helps, too.

I like the clarity of the instruments in this track. I don't hear clipping and the instruments are quite distinguishable, there. Nice work on that.

I like the complex nature of the texture, here. Tasty texture doesn't make an OCRemix yet, though, so keep at it. As an FYI, though, the Laguna mix that I posted is actually a finished product (not a WIP, like No Escape suggested) that should get to (and hopefully through) the panel sometime next week. I submit it on March 10th, and they're on March 9th, right now, so we'll see if that's the bar we're all trying to reach .

[hewhoisiam]

Holy crap?! I got an honorable mention?

*insert disclaimer last used here*

Anyways, onto 'the stuff' A minimalist intro like you seem to be going for could really use some echo/reverb effects, to nail down that you're ONLY using a few instruments and whatnot. I don't know how it is in your DAW, but mine uses envelopes and such to adjust certain aspects of a sound. IE. Filters, mix levels, etc.

My first thought is what you have is a very good intro. It's a lot of intro like material. In fact, too much in the way of length, but not in the way of ideas. You could turn this into a killer intro if you sped up a couple of transition/ideas to fit the sound scape.

However, the last praise is also the fault of this track, I always feel like it's building to something, something that never arrives. It's very neat intro ideas, but something needs to be fleshed out, into a main idea. Something needs the power and focus of this track to really make it shine. That's up to you.

Focus on something you like about the original track, and expand on that. Make it something fun, and appropriate to listen to. Really play with an idea that you want to say. 'HEY YOU! LISTEN TO THIS!

Hope this helps.

[No Escape]

As an FYI, though, the Laguna mix that I posted is actually a finished product (not a WIP, like No Escape suggested) that should get to (and hopefully through) the panel sometime next week.

I know that Gario, I was going for dramatic effect! lol

But these guys are dead on about the rest of the track as well. I didn't say anything about it because I thought I might come off as too harsh, but there are a lot of issues that need work here.

And I was talking about getting a *gasp* cracked version of FL, but I'm curious about Reaper as well. Is it better?

[mirev]

Mmm... I'm not sure if there's a place dedicated to DAW options. There probably is, but it's never been my concern.

I'm sure Cubase can do whatever you need it to do, since it's pretty much top of the line stuff, from what I hear. FL can get the job done, but it certainly isn't free - only the demo is free, which is a pain since it doesn't allow you to save your projects. Reaper is probably a better choice if you're looking for a free product - it has a fully functioning demo that never expires. You need a license to publish anything on it, but it's quite functional.

I'm stuck with Reason 3.0, which doesn't have nearly the functionality of these other programs. Reason is a pretty reliable sequencer as well, though... it just can't use any common soundfonts, vst/vsti plugins or the like, only Reason specific 'refills'. Alas.

Um... I lost track of where we... Oh! A new version

Wooooooaaaaaaah... this is WAY different from the older version, there. Well, let's see what we've got, here...

That drum set is annoying. It just seems to get in the way, as it is. Personally, I would simply remove the drums entirely, since the ambient nature of the track really speaks for itself (and it would change the quality of the off-timing that's rampant throughout the track). They just... don't fit. You need something a whole lot less intrusive, if you want drums in this (shakers, light Japanese percussion, all hats, etc.. something that isn't so heavy).

The synths really stick out like a sore thumb, here. They just don't mesh well with the more 'real' instruments you've got going in here. Mix them more into the background and add some reverb (not much, but some) so they blend with the other instruments better.

The 'real' instruments need some humanization, here. Personally, without the drums I feel the off-kilter effect of the beat helps in this regard, but changing the dynamics to imitate a person playing the instruments would help a great deal more. Playing with the attacks and releases of the samples helps, too.

I like the clarity of the instruments in this track. I don't hear clipping and the instruments are quite distinguishable, there. Nice work on that.

I like the complex nature of the texture, here. Tasty texture doesn't make an OCRemix yet, though, so keep at it. As an FYI, though, the Laguna mix that I posted is actually a finished product (not a WIP, like No Escape suggested) that should get to (and hopefully through) the panel sometime next week. I submit it on March 10th, and they're on March 9th, right now, so we'll see if that's the bar we're all trying to reach .

Thanks for the info, it is helping a ton. When I removed the drums entirely, it seems to remove a lot of the inconsistencies throughout the track. I'll learn how to add re verb to vst's, as that's all I'm using.

[Gario]

And I was talking about getting a *gasp* cracked version of FL, but I'm curious about Reaper as well. Is it better?

From what I hear, Reaper is at the very least an equal to FL. Zircon gave a rave review of it, claiming that if he wasn't already entrenched in FL he would've been a Reaper user. Yeah, it's one person's opinion, but that person is Zircon so it's probably accurate.

Reaper is also cheaper & legal (to a point) .

[mirev]

From what I hear, Reaper is at the very least an equal to FL. Zircon gave a rave review of it, claiming that if he wasn't already entrenched in FL he would've been a Reaper user. Yeah, it's one person's opinion, but that person is Zircon so it's probably accurate.

Reaper is also cheaper & legal (to a point) .

Yay! I solved my problem. Turn out I had to disable a "Feature"(pfft) in cubase called Snap, which supposedly automates what it thinks your going to select, so now I can make loops, although I'm preferring not to on sets that are 5 or less notes(IE Tenor Sax VST)

Here is the latest and close to final(in my opinion) version of my mix, which does have note inconsistencies in two of the instruments, with one instrument I had to strip out entirely until I can fix its composition. I think it sounds much more "full" compared to the others, and for whatever genre you would call it, I think it fits in nicely. Let me know what you think.

P.S. For the one who was considering making an album, let me throw in my two cents. Firstly, I think it's a great idea, but secondly, I think it should be an entire recreation of the Final Fantasy 8 Soundtrack, with a mix of every song from the game. That of course, would take a lot of time and collaboration(Not to mention the original album was four hours long and spanned 4-5 discs), I think it would be a great achievement that could become a major stepping stone in the Video Game Mixers Universe.

Without further ado, my latest mix of "The man with the machine gun", let me know what you think, I'm loving the help you guys have for me, it's assisting a lot, and could use any comments you have.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers5

EDIT: I've tried Fl Studio(Not in a sense...legally), but I found it hard to work with because it seemed very...compact, hard to organize, and with waaaaaay to many boxes. Everything was in a new box, while on cubase you've got two boxes, the program box, and the composition box. Cubase also uses light colors and is strait forward, making it fast and easy. When I looked at FL Studio, it was dark and the lists on the left side were so big that they bugged out the graphical interface. Now, I probably would have found a skin I liked, and a way to feel good working with FL Studios, but for me there was a major learning curve. On cubase, except for that whole snap feature, I learned it within a few hours. So in my opinion, Cubase is better.

NOTE: Cubase is reaaaaaally bloated, so if you don't have 4 gigs of ram(Preferably 8 gigs), and a smoking processor, don't go over 6 tracks.

[Gario]

P.S. For the one who was considering making an album, let me throw in my two cents. Firstly, I think it's a great idea, but secondly, I think it should be an entire recreation of the Final Fantasy 8 Soundtrack, with a mix of every song from the game. That of course, would take a lot of time and collaboration(Not to mention the original album was four hours long and spanned 4-5 discs), I think it would be a great achievement that could become a major stepping stone in the Video Game Mixers Universe.

It would be incredible. However, I am not ready to take on a serious project like that one. Perhaps someday in a few years or so, but now right now.

I was thinking something more along this line; considering we already have more tracks from Laguna than for that album I don't see why not .

I think your track could use a hint of reverb on the master track... I suspect that's what it needs to really fill the space as much as possible. The synth that plays the texture throughout doesn't seem to mesh well, to me, either.

Other than that, I'd say be happy with it, be glad that you've learned what you have with it and move to another mix. It's not a bad remix, by any means, but it really won't get on OCR since it's more of a soundwash than a track. Sound washes are awesome, but the powers that be would consider it repetition and lose interest too quickly.

Much love to Laguna .

[Anti-Syne]

NOTE: Cubase is reaaaaaally bloated, so if you don't have 4 gigs of ram(Preferably 8 gigs), and a smoking processor, don't go over 6 tracks.

I beg you're pardon sir, but i use cubase on my laptop (which is only 2gb of Ram) and can easily go way over 6 tracks...

Anyway! Just listened to your track, the only advice i can add is expanding on Gario's advice about your synth that doesnt mesh in too well. I would add some delay to it to give it more space in the mix, play around with some delay settings and you'll instantly see some change for the better, just don't go overboard with it! To me the rest of the track is nice and relaxed and washed, but that synth is just too punchy and sits on top of everything too much.

Apart from that i like it, it's a very unique take on the source, just mostly needs polishing up now, mostly...

[mirev]

Thanks for all of the support guys, I spent the last 12 hours grinding through tiny changes that I think add a positive feel to the track, which I wouldn't have been able to do without all of your wonderful help. My latest revision can be found at the link below, and I think it sounds good enough to be considered my Semi-Final mix. Because of this, I would appreciate the most critical analysis your willing to give on it, so I may make my last changes based on your opinions before releasing a final cut.

Changes in this version:

a. The background that follows throughout the track has a reverb, is not as intrusive, and has grown more "real" sounding than synth.

b. Added a mild ambience track which utilizes a sort of "bells" or "Crystals" type sound that I think complements the mix.

c. Small edits to the guitar as a few notes were merging into other sounds and it didn't sound to good.

d. The ending was tweaked a little to have the instruments end there tracks at close(but still separate) intervals.

e. A violin track was added to keep the song fresher than previously.(I can't remember if I had it in my last revision.)

f. Small tweaks here and there(Slowed some things down slightly, which involved redoing the track )

So let me know what you think, I really like it.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers5-3

[mirev]

Another Update, this is still not my final cut, just another semi-final. I've added two short segments which finalize the composition. (IE, two verses from the source were not yet included in my track, but now have a part). I still have to adjust for some timing issues, and cut down on the business at certain intervals, but i think it's starting to round itself out. Let me know what you think.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers5-5

[mirev]

Here is the first FINAL of my track. The entire song past 2:30 has been reworked so that it is not busy like before and matches with the rest of the track.

http://soundcloud.com/mirev/prison-wanderers_five_seven

Version FIVE, Revision SEVEN.

[Inferno232]

Huh, it's almost too 'quiet' at parts. Other than that, it's very relaxing, almost Jazzy. It's nice to see someone take MWTMG in some other direction than techno. Not that there's anything wrong with that, either.

[mirev]

It appears that comments have slowed, so I'm placing the track up for Mod Review.

Up For Mod Review--8/8/2010

[djnaff]

I am a mega fan of FF8 and i must say the song has many pros and cons to it

I Dislike the intro its a little bit skattish for my liking as in i don't like the piano at the start but when it goes into it the piano is really nice sounding and really good with the main build up it could be louder may i say

6/10 for it need to add bit of volume and improve the intro and then it will be awesome!

Good luck mate

[hewhoisiam]

I figure since I'm back in town I can hit this track, again.

Disclaimer: The left ear in these headphones has 'given out' they're surround cans, but it's only missing the center speaker over there. So it kinda sounds thin and it's hard to think in EQ/panning/mastering .

Okay, the hi-hats are screaming to me as a drummer with the whole only 2 and 4 thing! They say 'MAKE HIM DO SOME BRUSH WORK HERE' It's a jazz thing, but it will really help the sound to be filled in, soft and subtle while still giving a track like this some body. Brush work is a labor of love for jazz drummers, You do count and keep time, but you have a lot of freedom to play with sweeps and taps, and taps on the cymbals. Also, some brush work will really help highlight some tempo changes.

In the 'closer to finished' department, some echo effects where you're changing the mix rate and delay rate on echos will really help parts that are coming out and going in. The thing is, you have to do the automation individually for each track you want the effect, and a mix AND delay amount. This is going to be different for each DAW and whatnot so I'm not sure how it'll work for you.

There isn't really an introduction to this track, making the whole thing kinda samie. It's all about the same volume and texture, and while unique, can't hold my interest for the full length of time. Consider just adding space to the intro. Space can do wonderful things to something like this. Along those lines, we were talking about automation, a thinner, 'more space' intro would prolly need a bit stronger reverb. Something in the middle with the same effect might also work well. You've basically taken a long source and only used a tiny bit, so it needs some pizazz.

@1:26 I kinda think the violin is harsh there. My first thought is a slower attack on that bad boy. I like the sound, just tone down the atk a bit. Maybe consider holding out that note slightly longer and putting a volume envelope on it to fade it out.

Hope that helps

[halc]

i can't believe it's not techno!

so yeah, this is a pretty interesting take on the source here in terms of style, albeit still rather conservative. some of the part-writing actually seems a little 'overhumanized' to me, and there are a few sour notes in the arrangement. the soundscape is pretty thin as well, there's definitely room for some lush background chords or something.

the sampled wind instruments are all over the map in terms of quality, but the one problem the all share is mechanical attack/release. try tweaking (or even automating ) the ASDR values on your samples and see if you can't get a more fluid sound.

i really like the idea and style of this mix, but it has a bit of a ways to go in terms of production, and the arrangement needs to go more places. there are some good variations, but there's not a lot of momentum or build to keep the listener interested. you have some great creative ideas, so keep at it!