Dota 2

[relyanCe]

It'll be funny when HoN players start playing this and ask what the items and heroes' HoN names are.

I will likely be one of the people reeducating HoNfgts

also

Also LoL is better than HoN because creep denial is a really dumb "mechanic".

[zircon]

Creep denial isn't a stupid mechanic. The strategy of laning falls into several decisions that you must make constantly; do you try to harass enemy heroes? Go for a kill? Try to get more xp/gold for yourself? Or deny the enemy xp/gold? It's fascinating, tactically. What sucks is the fact that denials and last-hitting is a rhythm game. In the past I've advocated something where instead of XP/gold going to the last hit, that you have to do, say, 25% of a creep's lifebar in damage (or more) to get that credit.

[Bleck]

Creep denial is a thing that rose out of the WarCraft 3 engine being incapable of removing it without significant alterations to the game.

It is in the game and you have to work with it, so the strategy is there - but to argue that games aren't better off without it is just pandering to nostalgia. It's the same reason that this thread even exists - people who play MOBAs are too pedantic to maybe admit that some things need to actually be changed from what they know.

[zircon]

Saying I'm just nostalgic for DotA doesn't make sense, because I've never played DotA. I came into HoN (my first MOBA game) with a completely fresh perspective. I had no idea what I was doing. Also, the argument that denial was an unavoidable artifact of the WC3 engine IS true, but that doesn't mean that it's bad. Mouse control of your hero was also unavoidable, but even though we have more options now (WASD for example) that doesn't mean those other options are better. WC3 only had 3 stats, but that doesn't mean we need more or less than 3.

What people don't like about creep denial is that it's a timing game - a pointless, twitch-based mechanic interfering with an otherwise interesting tactical decision. The ability to attack your own forces thus depleting the opponent of XP/gold and drawing in enemy forces is great for strategy. Sometimes you want to do it, other times you want to push the lane forward. Creep denial isn't something that you should always do 100% of the time, because if you did, you'd sacrifice your own XP and your lane might be adversely affected (either due to creep positioning, or your lack of focus on harassing/ganking enemy heroes.)

So, what needs to be changed is how you EXECUTE the decision... in other words, it shouldn't be a needless twitch game-within-a-game where you have to estimate your attack power compared to a creep's remaining life and your own attack animation time. The entire decision or tactic shouldn't be removed just because it wasn't done that well in DotA/HoN.

Edited October 14, 2010 by zircon

[Hemophiliac]

Hopefully they can continue using the same kinda shop system that S2 developed for HoN because that was a huge improvement over the dota shops.

interested at what may come.

[Bleck]

twitch-based mechanic

This is the problem, basically. The mechanic you suggested to replace last hitting sounds like a much better alternative - but even with that, I don't believe that creep denial is something that should be in place in any MOBA.

[Hemophiliac]

this also sounds like the argument of most players who never got denying down in general. it just sounds like laziness mostly. it is important to the game, and sound not be removed.

[Bleck]

this also sounds like the argument of most players who never got denying down in general. it just sounds like laziness mostly.

The thing about MOBA players is that they all think that they are professionals, and they expect you to be as well.

sure is getting assholish in here already

[Hemophiliac]

denying really isn't hard at all.

i'm not professional nor do i expect that of anyone else, but this is what separates average players from above-average.

[Bleck]

denying really isn't hard at all.

The thing about MOBA players is that they all think that they are professionals, and they expect you to be as well.

yaaaaaaaawn

[Reaif]

Wow Bleck. Do you realize what your argument is really predicated on? You are basically continually saying "This is hard, therefore the mechanic sucks." And then when someone comes back with a reasonable argument, you just repeat yourself with different words.

I played DotA for a long time. I started back when 5.85b was the current version. As far as creep denying goes, I don't really like it a whole lot. I'm not going to paint it as something it is not by calling it a bunch of names. I just don't like it. More a matter of personal taste. As far as their apparent decision to leave that mechanic in DotA 2 goes, I don't care terribly. At first I hated it in DotA when people started doing it, but as time went on and as I played HoN more, I got to be OK at it, and now am fairly competent at creep denying. I still don't love it, but am more than willing to put up with it to play what I think is a very enjoyable game.

Edit: Additionally, I also didn't really like it when people started sniping enemy creeps. I was content to just miss out on most of the gold that creeps had to offer lol. But again, I latched on to the tactic when it became obvious that it reaped such grand rewards, and got to be fairly proficient.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Reaif

[Tensei]

Creep Denial is a relatively simple way of controlling the location where the creeps will clash in your lane (along with techniques that are much more 'advanced', like pulling neutrals into your lane). I'm not trying to sound like a pro here or anything, but it's seriously considered one of the basic techniques in HoN, especially compared to stuff like stacking/pulling etc.

I think removing it would make the laning phase a lot more boring, and it would screw over some heroes that are already mediocre anyway (Bloodseeker).

[Bleck]

You are basically continually saying "This is hard, therefore the mechanic sucks."

Actually, I responded as such because his argument is essentially "you just hate creep denial because you're bad at the game."

It's probably hard to read posts from all the way on your high horse.

I'm not trying to sound like a pro here or anything, but it's seriously considered one of the basic techniques in HoN, especially compared to stuff like stacking/pulling etc.

Maybe it's just that difficult for MOBA players to not be elitist about things even if they try, but not once did anyone say that creep denial was really difficult.

zircon said it was irritating, and I agreed, which I guess can be interpreted as difficult if you're consistently trying to make yourself seem better at the game than everyone else?

[relyanCe]

so about dota 2

looks good eh

[Bleck]

looks good yeah and that seems to be all they are doing

[relyanCe]

looks good yeah and that seems to be all they are doing

but hey that has its own merit yknow?

like Move Sports Resort.

[Bleck]

do ho ho ho ho ho

[Reaif]

All in all, I think I will get this game for four reasons.

1) The matchmaking (assuming it works as well as it should) will be refreshing and make getting into a game with similarly skilled people easy. HoN certainly taught us a lesson about how it is not done. SC2 is a good example of how it should be done.

2) I left WC3 partially because it was so ugly. I'm not a graphics whore (I play games on my snes all the time), but WC3 is so ugly. HoN fills the void graphically, but falls short in a few other ways.

3) The other reason I left DotA was because the environment was so hostile, that it left a bitter taste in my mouth. HoN was good for a while, but kind of moved towards that as well. DotA 2 seems to be intent on fostering a good environment, which I am all for. I just hope that it turns out well, and that everyone keeps it from decaying.

4) After having left DotA, I found the lack of Death Match mode in HoN rather depressing. Assuming that DotA 2 is indeed a direct remake of DotA, I don't think I will be disappointed in this regard.

[Ajax]

4) After having left DotA, I found the lack of Death Match mode in HoN rather depressing.

Death Match was seriously my favorite game mode. I am sad that they never implemented it in HoN. The inclusion of DM in DotA 2 will constitute an insta-buy on my part.

[relyanCe]

Death Match was seriously my favorite game mode. I am sad that they never implemented it in HoN. The inclusion of DM in DotA 2 will constitute an insta-buy on my part.

Quote Quotesy McQuoterson

[Tensei]

I still disagree with the notion that being able to deny creeps is a bad thing. Nobody is FORCING you to deny, and on a casual level, many people will probably be too lazy to deny everything anyway. Besides, if you focus on denying, you also end up neglecting your own last hitting so you might end up underfarmed as well.

While it obviously comes down to whether or not you find it 'irritating', which honestly is just personal preference, I think it's hard to deny that it adds some much needed variation to the laning, which is generally considered the most boring part of the game anyway.

[Dhsu]

I think it's hard to deny

do ho ho

that it adds some much needed variation to the laning, which is generally considered the most boring part of the game anyway.

5v5 INT ONLY ALL MID

[Reaif]

5v5 INT ONLY ALL MID

LOL! I love this. SO MUCH FUN!

[Tensei]

Found this Q&A with icefrog, which gives some more info.

Most notably that with the reconnect feature you'll not only be able to rejoin your own games after dropping, but other ones as well if a player needs to be replaced. Spectators will be able to join ongoing games and there will be extensive bot support. It's looking pretty impressive if they make good on all these promises.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Tensei

[Chernabogue]

Cool, the pics look great too!