*NO* Sonic CD (JP) 'Work It (RetroHouse Mix)'

[DarkeSword]

6Y, if y'all don't mind.

I don't mind. However, is everyone going to contest votes they don't like? I don't really feel this is one of those special circumstances. This one isn't that questionable imo. But if you guys want to continue to the vote, that's fine.

I believe the policy is if a mix is not unanimous, first to six wins. i dont think a specific request is required.

And of course it's questionable, otherwise the vote would be unanimous [/obvious]

No, we never decided on that policy. The policy is that if a judge feels very strongly about a mix either way, he (OR SHE/!?!) requests for a 6 vote.

[Vig]

Thread: "Continue Voting on ANY disputed YES's?"

if any 4Y mix is disputed, we should leave it on the panel in order to reach a more solid consensus with 5 but preferably 6 YESs

disputed meaning...not unanimous..

[Digital Coma]

1) No such hard-line policy was ever actually agreed upon. Make-believing it was in #ocrjudges doesn't count.

2) Just call it electronica.

3) Aaron, you might want to actually vote on the mix.

As with GeckoYamori's other work, this shows good mixing and production. But even though originality is at least attempted here, this is similarly an embellished step-down from the source material. Repetition, lack of dynamic contrast and development, and a terrible ending - style notwithstanding. There's absolutely nothing wrong with arranging a song in the same 'style' as the original, but there is a problem when the arrangement is weaker compositionally and just less solid.

NO

[Israfel]

Gee, sounds like Streets of Rage. I hate voting on electronic dance tracks, it's just not a genre I'm too familiar with, but nonetheless, here we go.

There's been some complaints in regards to form and development, but I'm not really hearing it with this piece. The form seems rather like a straightforward ABA affair and all the musical ideas presented are adequately explored, in my opinion, and as such I feel that the short length is justified.

And I agree with some of the others in regards to the overall high quality of the mixing and production. It's not really my sort of thing, but it seems to me like a well-made and above-average mix, so:

YES

[DarkeSword]

Make-believing it was in #ocrjudges doesn't count.

...psst...nobody said anything about #ocrjudges...

[analoq]

2) Just call it electronica.

that is bad advice because in numerous contexts 'electronica' does refer to certain subgenres of electronic music.

i'd recommend sticking with 'electronic' and/or 'dance'.

3) Aaron, you might want to actually vote on the mix.

i deserve that.

guilty as charged...

i've been listening to this remix a lot, and while i don't think it's particularly good, there's not a lot that's "wrong" with it.

the translation to house is alright, but it sounds a bit too "clean" -- it seems lacking in grit for a good 'retro' sound.

but while it doesn't quite get that authentic sound, it still sounds good enough.

it's very cheesy, but it's a decent interpretation.

yes

[danny B]

I was under the impression that it wasn't whether it got 6Y or 6N first, but an actual majority of all the judges. As long as this many people are voting, might as well go all the way, i say.

[Vig]

From now on i'm calling it polka just for spite.

[analoq]

I was under the impression that it wasn't whether it got 6Y or 6N first, but an actual majority of all the judges. As long as this many people are voting, might as well go all the way, i say.

alright, fine with me.

[zykO]

i think this genre-based rating is getting ridiculous. lets just judge whether its good music or not and leave it at that

[GrayLightning]

I agree with zyko, but the only time genre ratings or parsings need to be considered is that different genres have different rules.

[Liontamer]

I'm definitely satisfied with 6Y here. As I said before when offering this idea, we use it "as long as any NO vote make it clear that they strongly disagree with a mix's passage." It's not enough that a vote simply have some disagreement, but that you actually ask for the additional votes.

We won't always have 12 active judges; since reaching 6 on either side is the aim of these vote extensions when someone's particularly unsure of a mix, let's lock'er up, boys. If Wing or zirc feel like voting, they're welcome by all means. In any situation like this, you're welcome to voice yourself after 6Y or 6N has been reached, but you already get more than a few days courtesy of the extended voting.

This one's certainly resolved to me, and while I didn't vote YES on it, this is nonetheless an enjoyable mix that lots of people out there will enjoy and that we're collectively down with. As far as I know, this is a mix that exposes people to another genre of music not covered on OCR and thereby adds something I feel is important to the site, so thanks to Dan for bringing some house material our way.

[Vig]

I agree with zyko, but the only time genre ratings or parsings need to be considered is that different genres have different rules.

What? I really have no idea what you are trying to say here. could you clarify?

[GrayLightning]

I agree with zyko, but the only time genre ratings or parsings need to be considered is that different genres have different rules.

What? I really have no idea what you are trying to say here. could you clarify?

I mostly meant even though OCR has one main, clear standard there are special considerations that we do and have taken into account in the past. As far as technical or compositional judgements - one can't hold one singular technical standard for avant garde vs orchestral or one can't judge a rap mix's compositional content with say symphonic because different genres have different rules. Every genre dictates some different compositional, instrumental, etc. choices.

As judges, part of the decision process is to distinguish criticism of a mix rather than criticism of rules that apply to a given genre. So in that sense, I mentioned that genre distinction is sometimes necessary.

[danny B]

I'm definitely satisfied with 6Y here.

I'm not.

we're collectively down with [the mix]

No we aren't.

[analoq]

if the 2 remaining judges vote no on this mix then it'll be a tie that djp will have to break.

you can open the thread back up and try to get wingless and zircon to vote on it if you feel this mix deserves that kind of consideration --

i mean, you're a judge. you can do whatever you want.

cheers.

[The wingless]

I'm not a fan of this song.

I think it's far too repetative, which gets into arguements of what are the trademarks of the genre (if we are to assume this is textbook techno). Not a whole lot of variation/development. Plus, on the purely subjective end of things, I just don't like it, especially relative to the complexity/tightness of the original. Whenever you remix a "fully-realized" song, such as a Sonic CD song, I think it has to either A.) outdo the original or what is more likely B.) reinterpret it in a way that is enjoyably unique. This song does neither of these things for me.

So if I had my way, it'd be a NO

STOP THE PRESSES, BITCHES!

[djpretzel]

Alright, let's track down zircon...

Regarding the electronica/genre thing - my take would be that very few people on the planet Earth can reliably, unquestionably, and correctly label every last sub-genre of electronica (or whatever you want to call it). If the panel's respect and reputation hinge on us being able to truly tell the difference between techno, house, garage, two-step, jungle, d'n'b, happy hardcore, etc., etc., I think we should just give up now.

In other words, we're bound to get this wrong. I know plenty of my write-ups do. I consider it a different issue from 'notation', as electronica genres are COMMONLY screwed up, inconsistent, etc., whereas personally I had NEVER seen the word notation being used it was.

Aaron's very short, concise sentences sometimes make it seem like he MAY be condescending or trying to make someone look bad; I rarely interpret them as such myself. I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt. He's a pretty laid back guy, and I think his intentions here were good, if in my estimation potentially futile. I doubt that as he typed he laughed maniacally at how bad he was making anyone look.

We can as a panel TRY to avoid using the wrong electronica labels and aim for internal consistency - I do think that's admirable - but since I've seen so many mistakes in the 'professional' world, I have to wonder how much respect a flub here or there will truly cause us.

In summation:

1. benefit of the doubt is all-important

2. electronica genres are vague to begin with

3. I will tiebreak if zircon NOs

4. someone wake up zircon

[zircon]

I listened to this first before hearing the originals, and I was leaning yes at that point - Gecko's overall production values are always strong, with some tight synths, percussion, effects, and accompaniment. However, after hearing the originals, I'm inclined to say no. Gecko's style has never been to stray far from the original, and there's nothing wrong with that as he makes some of the most enjoyable mixes around. Nonetheless, this particular mix is too close for comfort. It's not just the arrangement of the mix either, which is relatively close (including some small variations), but also the instrumentation. The timbre of Gecko's sounds is more like an update of the original sounds, like the synths, organ, hats, snare, and kick. It's one thing to have a close arrangement and make up for it by overhauling the execution of the original, but it's another thing when both the arrangement and execution are close.

I like the style, I like the production, I like the sound of the mix in general, but it's simply not enough of a reinterpretation. Switch up the sounds more and throw in some new sections or add more variations and this'll get a yes from me.

For now, NO

[The wingless]

SUDDEN DEATH!

[Malcos]

Er, HELLO!!! Any progress on this AT ALL? Is this just gonna sit here forever? *hyperventilating* Ok ok, gotta calm down...

[Vig]

if you're getting antsy, why not vote on one of the four other remixes that you havent voted on?

[djpretzel]

Alright, looks like I get to be the bad guy.

Not every mix can or should make it to a tiebreaker, where I get to execute my semi-vice-presidential status as the final vote. When one does, it's obvious there's a lot to like about a mix, but it's also clear there are some shortcomings.

I essentially agree with the mix's advocates that the mix has strong production values, does a fair amount of instrumentation/adaptation (a step in the right direction for the ReMixer, who has already got the production side of the 'ReMix equation' down), and is catchy and chooses a well-suited genre.

I also agree with the mix's critics that the piece is a bit repetitive, a bit bland, that while it does make some changes, the arrangement is still fairly close, and that the ending is lackluster.

I don't have issues with this mix qualifying as what we call a 'ReMix' - I think it can safely fall under that umbrella. However, personally, I think the piece sounds a bit tentative, hesitant. It sounds like a ReMix waiting to happen. We certainly as a panel pass things that still have issues, but we're trying to do less of that and encourage more resubmissions for pieces that are 70-80% there... but not quite.

In general, I feel like the mixer has done a better job with interpretation, but that the mix doesn't compare well to his other material in terms of execution. It's not as memorable as GY's other stuff, which you could play and then have in your head for the next hour. I feel like the structure, length, and changes made all seem slighter than they should be.

None of these comments I'm making are 100% absolutes. They're just the best way I can articulate why I think the judges who voted no might have felt the way they did. Perhaps Gecko will disrespect the panel because we mistakenly called the mix techno, and henceforth disregard any constructive criticism, but I don't consider the mix representative of his best work, although the direction in adding a bit more interpretation is positive.

Placing myself in his shoes, I don't know what I'd think about getting 6 yesses and 7 nos from the panel. Clearly, a good number felt the mix was ready for primetime, and a single vote could have swayed it. Not exactly a mandate that the mix ACTUALLY has any serious issues. And I don't think it DOES have *serious* issues - I just think it has enough significant flaws to not tiebreak towards posting it.

I'm sure OCR listeners would enjoy it

I'm sure there are mixes currently on the site that it compares (very) favorably to, and

I'm sure that GY has talent and used it in the mix's construction.

None of those truths, however, change my concurrence with the no votes that the mix has some issues that would be much better resolved before being added to the site. I hope that this very close vote serves as a source of encouragement rather than discouragement, and I'm a fan, regardless.

No.

Hopefully, the mixer can direct any frustration towards me, and not the panel. I'm also fairly sure a resubmission that took any number of the suggestions involved into account would be passed. In a perfect world, people would analyze panel decisions each in their own private sphere or vacuum, instead of comparing the decision to others, which to some may seem unfair or unequal in the criteria/standards used.

[DarkeSword]

For anyone who loves to follow the dramarama of the Panel (), Gecko IMed me today wanted me to just mention that he respects the Judges' decision, and that he's not angry at us. And I quote:

Mr. Gecko: yeah, i thought you might add to the judging thread that i'm not pissed off or anything as djpretzel seems to imply, i still respect the judges' decisions

Shariq Ansari: oh that's good

So fear not. Gecko isn't going to quit OCR in protest.

[Vig]

I suppose this would qualify as a "Please Resubmit."