Crimson Echoes released... sort of.

[Gario]

Yeah, I remember the drama about this whole internet episode on here. However, it turns out that someone who was holding onto the 99% beta finally released it to the public. I've played the hack a little bit to make sure that it wasn't the alpha that's been around for a couple years and can verify that this is at least the version that CEMemorial posted videos about years ago, if not more complete than that. Here's a link (courtesy of Gollgagh).

I don't know the creators of the hack's response to this yet, nor do I know of how Square-enix will respond (if they do). Since the leak was anonymous I hope they don't get any flak for it, but I am glad to be able to play this.

Any thoughts on the release of the game, or on the C&D, or... well, anything CE related? Let's try to keep the 'Squeenix' hate to a minimum, here, since there are already threads that bash them well enough.

EDIT: On second thought, the C&D discussion was a pretty hot topic on that other thread. Let's just stick to the game itself, for this thread.

[thephoenix]

Square is quick to shoot of C&Ds with the explanation that they don't want something to "compete against" if they decide to release a game that may come close to one already released. While I get that, they haven't touched the Chrono series in a long time, besides porting it. They show no sign or intention of continuing, and honestly, most companies take things like that as an honor that their fans have that much backing of a game after all this time. They've already hit quite a few other projects, to include a fully 3d version of Chrono Trigger remade a few years ago. The info still is on youtube for it.

Meh, good on them for leaking it anyway. I want to see SE's response.

[K.B.]

The C&D was a fake. Read the old thread (specifically here) before posting about it. Edit: or better yet don't since it's been covered.

As for the game, I've yet to see a reason to get excited.

[BardicKnowledge]

I really enjoyed the two chapter alpha I played a long while ago. It'd be nice to see the whole game. Maybe this weekend...

As for huge drama, let's avoid it please.

[Gollgagh]

(that's against OCR policy)

it is?

[Gario]

I did read the thread, and I saw a reasonable speculation turned sour when people began accusing the creators of sabotaging their own project because it 'never existed'. Because the hack is proven to be real, it hampers the theory in there that the C&D was a fake (or at least it eliminates the primary motive behind posting a fake C&D). Also, OCR seems to be the only place where the general consensus is that it was fake - most other sites that I've visited believe that it was real. Look more carefully into the subject before posting speculation as fact, next time.

The whole episode could've been one giant ploy to get the interwebz attention and generate publicity over it, in which case it's succeeding fairly well. In all likelihood, though, the C&D was real, but there's still room for opinion .

it is?

Originally posted in OCR Forum Rules

No illegal material or requests for illegal material, including but not limited to warez, ROMs...

Yup, I think it is.

[Gollgagh]

but most hacks are provided as patches and not the rom itself

[K.B.]

I didn't see the other member of the project who posted in that thread countermand Zeality's explanation, and I'm going to believe Darke that it was from Zeality. I was a bit brash though, I admit. How about this: the thread should be about the game, not the C&D.

[BardicKnowledge]

If it's a .ips patch only, link us please. I want to give this a shot

[Gollgagh]

yeah it's an .ips

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CR6ZTVXG

[thephoenix]

I looked into it more, and I agree with the "meh" feelings most seem to have towards it. It's fanfiction you can play. Nothing amazingly exciting, and the fact that they took almost too much creative license only serves to take away from the game, not add to it.

[Gario]

How about this: the thread should be about the game, not the C&D.

Alright, fair enough. I guess we already have a thread about that drama.

[DarkeSword]

FYI you can post links to patches.

Don't post links to patched ROMs.

[Gario]

Ah, alright. Gollgagh already linked to a patch, so I'll post that link on the OP leave it at that.

[higgs]

They've already hit quite a few other projects, to include a fully 3d version of Chrono Trigger remade a few years ago.

Actually Chrono Resurrection was supposed to be a "short interactive technical demo" of sorts featuring 10 locations from the original game (Crono's Room and Crono's Kitchen count as 2 locations). It was to have a basic battle system but not much gameplay and Ayla and Robo weren't supposed to be playable. It would have been awesome to play but don't mistake it for a real game.

[thephoenix]

Actually Chrono Resurrection was supposed to be a "short interactive technical demo" of sorts featuring 10 locations from the original game (Crono's Room and Crono's Kitchen count as 2 locations). It was to have a basic battle system but not much gameplay and Ayla and Robo weren't supposed to be playable. It would have been awesome to play but don't mistake it for a real game.

Well, you're both right and wrong. It was a tech demo, but it was playable, going through 10 scripted scenes in the game, flowing from one to another. All in all, it still was a remake of those scenes in full 3d, which is what I said to begin with. Nothing saying they remade the entirety of it, but they were still working on a remake.

Regardless, the sad thing with Square is how quick they are to hit ANYTHING that's fan crafted. I started creating a Final Fantasy CCG game a few years back, ended up getting some steam going behind it (released the card info for the entire first two set releases, and worked with coders on an online way of playing) and found myself getting a Cease and Desist a few months later. I have it printed and framed back at my parent's house somewhere. At that time, and up until just recently, Square showed no signs of making any FF card games of any kind. It seems as if their mindset is "If it's something popular using our IP, we need to stop it in case we decide to do the same thing."

Then again, at E3 a few years back, the Square-Enix Senior VP Shinji Hashimoto said to those asking about a Chrono Sequel, "If people want a sequel, they should buy more!" So, yeah, they can go fuck themselves. The Chrono fans have been more than loyal and patient.

[DarkeSword]

It seems as if their mindset is "If it's something popular using our IP, we need to stop it in case we decide to do the same thing."

Well, it's a company's duty to protect their IP.

[thephoenix]

Well, it's a company's duty to protect their IP.

I'd agree if they were going to lose money off of it, but this is fan based work. All credit was given, no one was stealing their IP, and there's nothing wrong with being creative and making an off-story. Hell, that'd be like saying Fan Fiction is a violation of IP (which, if you find the right lawyer, could be argued and won). Most companies love what their fans do to show that appreciation and will not only accept it, but sometimes will even promote it themselves. It's not only free marketing for them, it's potentially pushing people to go out and get the other games that drove these projects to be created. With this game here specifically, no one was going to see a profit on it at all. Sure, if they make a sequel, would they want to protect the possibility of doing a similar story to a game released? Maybe, but if you're to that point that you hit anything with a C&D like this, when they've done all this out of their appreciation for the game, it comes off as the kid at recess that brings a ball, but then when others ask to play with it, he screams "NO, ITS MINE! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!"

[DarkeSword]

I'd agree if they were going to lose money off of it, but this is fan based work. All credit was given, no one was stealing their IP, and there's nothing wrong with being creative and making an off-story. Hell, that'd be like saying Fan Fiction is a violation of IP (which, if you find the right lawyer, could be argued and won). Most companies love what their fans do to show that appreciation and will not only accept it, but sometimes will even promote it themselves. It's not only free marketing for them, it's potentially pushing people to go out and get the other games that drove these projects to be created. With this game here specifically, no one was going to see a profit on it at all. Sure, if they make a sequel, would they want to protect the possibility of doing a similar story to a game released? Maybe, but if you're to that point that you hit anything with a C&D like this, when they've done all this out of their appreciation for the game, it comes off as the kid at recess that brings a ball, but then when others ask to play with it, he screams "NO, ITS MINE! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!"

Well, infringement is still infringement, whether you intend to profit or not.

Also the "taking your ball and going home" analogy doesn't really apply.

[higgs]

What's annoying is that they only care if the IP is big and/or if there is noticeable fan interest in the fangame. Some Japanese fan team made a FOR-PROFIT fan sequel to Threads of Fate called "Duo Princess" in 2003 and it's still available to buy and yet Square Enix never stopped them:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/duoprincess/duoprincess.htm

http://egs-soft.info/product/duoprincess/duopri.html

I assume Square Enix never killed this because the Threads of Fate fan community isn't big enough, although the project did get popular enough for an English journalist to write about it on a website hosted by Kurt Kalata.

[thephoenix]

Well, infringement is still infringement, whether you intend to profit or not.

Also the "taking your ball and going home" analogy doesn't really apply.

Squaresoft has their IP, others want to utilize it without stealing it or using it wrongly (and it's not illegal in most cases to do so) and Square goes out of their way to slap away anyone that does. It comes off as if the only ones allowed to do anything with their games is Squaresoft, regardless of what you wish to do. No one makes a profit off of it at all. Just doing something fan-based isn't "infringing", and keep in mind that a C&D is a request, not a legal notification. The legality comes into play only if they decide to pursue.

Hell, I'll touch an even closer subject...music remixing could be seen as the same thing. You're taking something that was created by someone else and making your own interpretation of it. Granted, while rights already exist protecting that practice, it'd be as if Squaresoft shot artists here on OCRemix C&Ds for infringing on the rights of their music they own.

[DarkeSword]

Squaresoft has their IP, others want to utilize it without stealing it or using it wrongly (and it's not illegal in most cases to do so) and Square goes out of their way to slap away anyone that does. It comes off as if the only ones allowed to do anything with their games is Squaresoft, regardless of what you wish to do. No one makes a profit off of it at all. Just doing something fan-based isn't "infringing", and keep in mind that a C&D is a request, not a legal notification. The legality comes into play only if they decide to pursue.

No, it's still infringement. Intent has nothing to do with infringement. It doesn't matter if someone is a fan or a professional working for another company. It doesn't matter if they're doing something for-profit or not-for-profit. Infringement is infringement. If you're using someone's intellectual property for any reason, you're still infringing on their rights. IP means intellectual property, so yes, technically Square Enix is the only one allowed to do anything with their games. Because, you know, it's their property.

Hell, I'll touch an even closer subject...music remixing could be seen as the same thing. You're taking something that was created by someone else and making your own interpretation of it. Granted, while rights already exist protecting that practice, it'd be as if Squaresoft shot artists here on OCRemix C&Ds for infringing on the rights of their music they own.

Yep. I don't believe anyone here has any illusions to the contrary. We do, however, have a very good relationship with many industry folks, so we're not too worried about that sort of thing happening to us. Plus, you know, Fair Use and all that.

[thephoenix]

No, it's still infringement. Intent has nothing to do with infringement. It doesn't matter if someone is a fan or a professional working for another company. It doesn't matter if they're doing something for-profit or not-for-profit. Infringement is infringement. If you're using someone's intellectual property for any reason, you're still infringing on their rights. IP means intellectual property, so yes, technically Square Enix is the only one allowed to do anything with their games. Because, you know, it's their property.

Yep. I don't believe anyone here has any illusions to the contrary. We do, however, have a very good relationship with many industry folks, so we're not too worried about that sort of thing happening to us. Plus, you know, Fair Use and all that.

Actually, intent has a lot to do with it, especially with you bringing up fair use. Hell, if you wanted to, you could easily put this game under fair use in numerous ways. In fact, I have a pretty good feeling if they were taken to court, it'd be ruled in favor of the fan game creators. Big amount of the "infringement" cases is about intent, so you can't just rule it out. The courts tend to look at things like plagiarism, intent to profit, defamation, and numerous other things, none of which this game fall under. Read up a little more on Fair Use...both the infringement laws and Fair Use are very open-worded so it's all about how you go about it. My brother got hit with a C&D by Nexon after his MapleStory site was posting a database with the entire games information on just about everything. He had a lawyer who contacted them back and argued Fair Use, especially citing intention. So it still deserves to be noted as it's what has been the central focus of numerous cases.

[Kidd Cabbage]

I was really bummed when Square sent me a C&D for my "Obese Aeris" erotic fanfic series...

[XZero]

[Disclaimer: Not to be construed as legal advice]

Generally, to successfully demonstrate copyright infringement, the copyright holder must show by a preponderance of the evidence that (1) the copyright held is valid, (2) the defendant copied the work, and (3) the copying constituted "improper appropriation." To show (2), the plaintiff usually has to prove the defendant had access to the work and the defendant's work is similar enough to the original to show copying.

Fair use is a defense to a copyright infringement claim. Courts consider 4 statutory factors: (a) purpose and character of the use, ( nature of the copyrighted work, © amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the work as a whole, and (d) the effect of the use on the potential market for the copyrighted work. See 18 U.S.C. s. 107. thephoenix mentioned intent, which, along with considerations such as free speech, is a potentially relevant nonstatutory factor. However, he overemphasizes the importance of intent, especially since it's not a factor enumerated by the statute. Courts will consider it in the right situations, of course, but lack of intent is not good enough to satisfy the burden of demonstrating fair use that the defendant has. It's more of a social policy argument, which some judges will buy and others will disregard as something more belonging to the legislature.

For the Chrono Trigger "sequel," there are a lot of problems. The C&D order is a big one. Also, the only elements of the game that are changed are the storyline and corresponding events. All of the original game's resources are used, as demonstrated by the fact that it's a rom hack, albeit a well-done hack. I'm not in the business of advising the Crimson Echoes guys if something goes awry, but they might be in deep shit if they're found to be responsible for the so-called "leak."