Tips for arranging/remixing for piano

[SteelSlasher]

Ever since listening (performing at school) the Zohar/Valente remix of corridors of time I have felt ridiculously inspired to make my own arrangement of a song for piano.

I was wondering what I should need to know before trying to do something since this my first attempt at creating something. I have Finale Music with the Garritan VST plugin which i know works in FL.

So what things should i consider before attempting to arrange something?

[Nabeel Ansari]

Ever since listening (performing at school) the Zohar/Valente remix of corridors of time I have felt ridiculously inspired to make my own arrangement of a song for piano.

I was wondering what I should need to know before trying to do something since this my first attempt at creating something. I have Finale Music with the Garritan VST plugin which i know works in FL.

So what things should i consider before attempting to arrange something?

For piano?

Just keep in mind not to have things as repetitive, and put some variation in it. (not just melodic variation, but tempo and intensity too)

[Rozovian]

Best thing to know? That you suck.

I mean, if you think you suck, you'll be more receptive towards feedback, whether this is negative, positive, constructive, or whatever. And you're more motivated to learn and less inclined to whine about how you're much better than ppl's comments suggest.

Tho if you're pro enough to not need all that, just keep in mind that for ocr, it should be your own take on the source, not a cover and not a solofest.

[SteelSlasher]

Thanks for the tips, and for the record, i probably do suck and even claim to it even though people say i am amazing when i am not really.

[Ghetto Lee Lewis]

99% of sequenced piano music sounds fake. In my opinion it's more difficult getting piano to sound realistic than guitar (shreddage, anyone?).

Your best bet is producing the piano sheet music (via Finale or Sibelius, etc.) and asking one of the talented people here to perform it. Other people might even have better piano sample libraries for the sound you want. When you have a midi recording, it's pretty easy to edit out the mistakes and nuances you don't want in there, but still have a realistic sounding performance.

Make sure you specify whether it needs to be tempo synced. Non tempo synched will sound far more emotional, but is can't be combined with other instruments.

Personally, I use Tonehammer Emotional Piano. It's the best sounding piano library I've found, and for $150, it's a steal. I'd be more than happy to take a look at one of your arrangements and maybe even perform it if it's appropriate to my skill level. Unfortunately, my keyboard is only 76 keys and non-weighted, so it won't be perfect, but it's definitely better than sequenced crap.

As far as arranging tips, if you don't play piano it's probably going to suck. Period. You probably need pro tips from a real pianist if you want to make something good, unless you have god-like composer talent.

[Nabeel Ansari]

99% of sequenced piano music sounds fake. In my opinion it's more difficult getting piano to sound realistic than guitar (shreddage, anyone?).

Two problems:

1. It's not that hard to sequence good piano. Willrock pulled it off, and it's not like he's some 50 year old god sequencer either.

2. Piano is WAY easier to humanize than guitar. Shreddage is a rhythm guitar library, so your example doesn't apply. Why? Because lead guitar playing has three times the number of subtleties that rhythm guitar playing has. The piano instrument doesn't have any subtleties that you can't capture in a good sample library (no scripting needed, it's all just note intensity, unlike guitar) and there are dozens of well sampled pianos on the internet.

[Ghetto Lee Lewis]

Two problems:

1. It's not that hard to sequence good piano. Willrock pulled it off, and it's not like he's some 50 year old god sequencer either.

2. Piano is WAY easier to humanize than guitar. Shreddage is a rhythm guitar library, so your example doesn't apply. Why? Because lead guitar playing has three times the number of subtleties that rhythm guitar playing has. The piano instrument doesn't have any subtleties that you can't capture in a good sample library (no scripting needed, it's all just note intensity, unlike guitar) and there are dozens of well sampled pianos on the internet.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with your example. Can you be more specific?

I'm not talking about piano being used in a dance track. Emotional performances are unbelievably nuanced and complex. Guitars play one note at a time (or two if they're playing power chords). You switch articulations on a sequencer, and that's about it. Guitar is not very dynamic sounding when plugged into an amp, so it's easy to fake. Pianos are EXTREMELY dynamic sounding instruments, so making them sound real takes a lot of very careful precision tweaking to both tempo and velocities.

edit: I'll give you an example that would be damn hard to fake. I recorded this while very drunk on St. Patrick's Day (Waterfall of Beer by GLL): http://compo.thasauce.net/rounds/view/OHC127

[Nabeel Ansari]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with your example. Can you be more specific?

I'm not talking about piano being used in a dance track. Emotional performances are unbelievably nuanced and complex. Guitars play one note at a time (or two if they're playing power chords). You switch articulations on a sequencer, and that's about it. Guitar is not very dynamic sounding when plugged into an amp, so it's easy to fake. Pianos are EXTREMELY dynamic sounding instruments, so making them sound real takes a lot of very careful precision tweaking to both tempo and velocities.

edit: I'll give you an example that would be damn hard to fake. I recorded this while very drunk on St. Patrick's Day (Waterfall of Beer by GLL): http://compo.thasauce.net/rounds/view/OHC127

You've got it WAY backwards. Guitar isn't just tempo and velocities like piano is. If you don't understand that, well, there's no point in trying to explain. Guitar is not "easy" to fake. It's the HARDEST instrument to fake (and has been forever until something like Electri6ity came out). Humanizing piano is probably the easiest thing to do, it's only the actual coming up with the improv that's hard. Getting it to sound realistic is nothing but understanding how to adjust velocities (and edit tempo, but that's more from your head and less a realism thing). My example is Willrock's remix. There is a small synthetic quality to it, but it's more than enough to fool the common man (and will get past the judges, if the OP tries to sub).

And yes, guitars play one note at a time for leads... and 3 for powerchords, actually. But as for piano, there are zero legato sounds required. It's just pressing different keys. Guitars need to include fretboard slides and legato picking like hammer ons and pull offs, and switching strings (accounting for muting the strings properly or being able to know what's still ringing when you shift to a different string) It's ridiculously complicated to sequence a guitar able to fool someone other than the common man. It's even harder on a piano roll because you don't even know what string you're on, you only know what note you're playing.

And guitars are the most dynamic through an amp. Vibrato-type subtleties are things you can actually pick up through an amp, and stuff you do on an amped electric that you can't hear on a regular acoustic. Without a well scripted and expensive sample library, humanizing expressive guitar playing is IMPOSSIBLE. And I'm talking about lead playing, not rhythm guitar playing. But I'm derailing this thread.

The point is, to the OP, that humanizing piano isn't hard. The hard part is coming up with expressive improv. It's hard to do from your head to your speakers, because a lot of it is impulse.

[mickomoo]

Does anyone know any good piano vsts? I used pro-tools mini grand and mixed it and didn't really like the result

[Nabeel Ansari]

Does anyone know any good piano vsts? I used pro-tools mini grand and mixed it and didn't really like the result

I've heard Tonehammer's piano is pretty good, and Native Instruments has their 3 concert grand sample libraries and their Alicia's Keys library that are all really good and versatile. Emunator likes emotional piano music, so he went with Tonehammer's piano because he concluded that he'd get a better tone with it.

[Ghetto Lee Lewis]

No offense to Will Rock, but the velocities in his remix are pretty bad. They don't sound like something a pianist would play, even though most of the notes themselves are pretty much okay. To me the way the velocities and tempo are sequenced and the notes are humanized sound pretty awful actually. There are so many things wrong about this....it really hurts me listening to it, and I'm a sucker for good piano music. It just reinforces my point that 99% of piano sequencing is done wrong, probably even more than that.

My point is that it's easier to SEQUENCE a guitar with VSTi's of today. The software does most of the work for you when it comes to articulations and keyswitching and what not. The tone of the guitar is much less effected by velocities than a piano is. I wasn't talking about vibrato and pitch bends and muting when I referred to dynamics. The tone itself is less dynamic. I'm well aware that there are a lot of nuances, but software is so advanced now those nuances are extremely easy to fake, and it's easy to sequence a live sounding performance. Of course it's going to be hard sequencing a guitar if all you play is the guitar and you've never used a piano keyboard or a sampler before. Guitar software was made for people who don't play the guitar. I don't read guitar tabs, and I never will. I don't want guitar sequencing that forces me to learn guitar.

And yes, guitar sequencing has gone a long way and used to be a PAIN in the ass, but it's gotten much easier with the latest software that's available.

Piano humanizing software, on the other hand, is not very advanced. The best thing I've seen probably is Sibelius, which automatically does tempo changes, rubato and adds dynamics, but it's still far from perfect.

Back to Will Rock's arrangement, I can tell he spent a lot of time trying to make it sound real, and most people aren't even going to get that close. In the end Sequencing piano well is extremely hard, and isn't worth the time it takes. You're better off getting a real performer to record.

[Nabeel Ansari]

No offense to Will Rock, but the velocities in his remix are pretty bad. They don't sound like something a pianist would play, even though most of the notes themselves are pretty much okay. To me the way the velocities and tempo are sequenced and the notes are humanized sound pretty awful actually. There are so many things wrong about this....it really hurts me listening to it, and I'm a sucker for good piano music. It just reinforces my point that 99% of piano sequencing is done wrong, probably even more than that..

I don't follow, maybe if you said more than just "it's bad, it's awful, it's bad, it's wrong, it hurts my ears, it's wrong." I'll understand the problems you have with it, because to me it sounds fine. His piano is compressed, which is probably what you're actually talking about.

[Ghetto Lee Lewis]

I don't follow, maybe if you said more than just "it's bad, it's awful, it's bad, it's wrong, it hurts my ears, it's wrong." I'll understand the problems you have with it, because to me it sounds fine. His piano is compressed, which is probably what you're actually talking about.

It'll take me a while to point out everything, maybe later when I get home and have my headphones.

The first descending arpeggio sounds like a fade-out. Dynamics are over-exaggerated.

The left hand notes at :08 sound too soft without any louder notes to accentuate the beats. The whole section sounds basically soft and mostly monotone except for a few louder notes that appear to be completely random. You might be surprised at how little randomness is in a live performance and how deliberate variations usually are by the performer. That's why humanizing/randomizing doesn't typically work (unless it's smart humanizing designed to do tempo and velocity changes in very specific places, i.e. Sibelius).

The part at 1:15 sounds kind of clumsy to me. Some notes are being emphasized that really shouldn't be. The 1 beat on each measure is too soft, the 3 beat is too loud, etc.

Well that's a few things, and I skipped over quite a few of the more glaring ones, and sorry I can't really be that clear or specific. For the most part I hear dynamic changes that would look good on paper, but aren't being implemented right during sequencing, if that makes sense. The interpretation of dynamic changes during a performance isn't suppose to mathematically follow what's written on paper. Any experienced performer knows this and is able to give music proper rhythm and emotion during a performance. However, it's just simply not easy to put down on a sequencer.

and thanks for pointing out the compression; I'm on really bad speakers, so it's hard to tell. Compressing this type of piano performance is usually a bad thing, for the simple reason that it will nearly always end up crushing your dynamics.

[WillRock]

I think i'll chime in here

First off all, regarding my remix, I'll admit, its not totally believable. That said, I think I do a good enough job with what I have to work with. I used to be a pianist at one point, so I have a vaugue idea of how a piano should sound when its played and I think my remix does a fair enough job. Ghetto, I understand you are somewhat a perfectionist as far as piano goes in music does that doesn't mean you should bash guitar sequencing and say its much easier because its not, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact its just as hard, because you have to emulate the way a guitar is played, which is harder to do with a guitar. You can add vibrato, harmonics, as well as how you hit the note (the pick noise etc). Its so complex no one has perfected guitar sequencing near to the point of piano.

I'm just saying that any instrument is hard to seqeuence well. You have no idea how hard it was for me to get my piano mix to the level it was, and while it saddens me to see Ghetto pick it apart, I'm glad he sees the effort I put into making it sound as realistic as I could. The same goes for any instrument. Alot of people often complain about the quality of any organic instrument, be it violin, trumpet, guitar or even a flute. Every instrument has its own qualities that makes it sound natural and emulating that is hard when it comes to sequencing for anything. Don't assume any instrument is easier than another, because thats not the case.

[Ghetto Lee Lewis]

Believe me, I've tried sequencing piano, it's hard as hell to do. I'd believe you if you told me you spent dozens of hours working on that song (if not more) to try to get it to sound real. Hell, I pick apart live performances by classical pianists every so often, so you got me on that one. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell how other people are going to react to a song because my standards are usually so much higher.

I'm basing what I think of guitar sequencing based on my own experience. As far as rhythm goes, I can make several catchy riffs in 5 or 10 minutes in Shreddage that could fool all but the most experienced guitarists. I haven't used any of the high end software used for leads, but the tutorial videos I've seen really do make it look easy. And since I'm not a guitarist, I'm not acquainted with all of the numerous articulations and variations and styles of playing.

I agree with WillRock, making just about anything sound real can get very difficult without access to live performances. And if all the piano songs on OCR sounded as good as the Trial in Concert, then I think I could die happy.

[eilios]

Every instrument has its own qualities that makes it sound natural and emulating that is hard when it comes to sequencing for anything. Don't assume any instrument is easier than another, because thats not the case.

This times INFINITY. Whenever I listen to synthesized trombone it's just... ugh.

Anyhow - this thread is totally getting off track. GLL's post about piano dynamics, though, was actually pretty informative. More stuff like that would be good.

[Rozovian]

Everything fake sounds fake if you know what to listen for. Shreddage doesn't do everything, mostly just rhythm - which is what it's designed for, anyway. A piano vi could be done that automatically swings stuff slightly, automatically humanizes quantized/sequenced left-hand chords, changes velocity and delays notes according to whatever preset rhythm you've set it to, etc... Just add to those things that it responds to the mod wheel by fading to a different preset set of... settings, and you've got yourself the Sixto of piano performance... you just need a good piano sound to make it sound real. And speaking of which...

Does anyone know any good piano vsts? I used pro-tools mini grand and mixed it and didn't really like the result

PIanoteq. Look it up.

[Salluz]

Guitar sequencing can be of any difficulty. It's only that hard when you're using Slayer. Oh God, that's insatiable!

As I had mentioned in another thread:

Guitars are similar to vocals. Vocals are rich with harmonics, and so are guitars, so you'll need more attention put into the dynamics. You'll have to simulate these:

• finger play dynamics and velocities (how ones plays)
  
• string physics (how a string behaves)
  
• harmonics (which can be corrected and set to a limit if preferred)
  
• amp characteristics (just get a plug-in that's as good as an amp)
  

Basically, when you're simulating a guitar, you're building an instrument.

[zircon]

Those tips don't really have anything to do with guitar sequencing though. You're talking more about synthesizing a guitar sound, which is a waste of time when there are good samples out there. Things like string physics and harmonics aren't really relevant at all.

Here are the things that are most important, and which people most commonly get wrong:

1. Release noises. When playing guitar, there is a lot of fret noise and squeaking going on. Furthermore, when a note is stopped manually, there's a little bit of noise from that, too.

2. Related to #1, unless you're FULLY sustaining a note, don't use a release envelope. The note should basically stop suddenly since, as I said, real players will mute notes before they ring out fully.

3. Palm mute playing. Many people ignore the use of muted notes (palm mutes) entirely, so their sequenced guitar sounds awful. 99% of the time, your guitar riff is going to use some kind of muting, not just open strings. So watch for that.

4. Realistic rhythms. Listen to classic rock and metal riffs. So many people write these plain quarter-note guitar parts that no real guitarist would play simply because they lack any rhythmic interest whatsoever. That's a major giveaway of sequenced guitar, beyond the samples and other production values. Write good parts!

[Necrotic]

Those tips don't really have anything to do with guitar sequencing though. You're talking more about synthesizing a guitar sound, which is a waste of time when there are good samples out there. Things like string physics and harmonics aren't really relevant at all.

Here are the things that are most important, and which people most commonly get wrong:

1. Release noises. When playing guitar, there is a lot of fret noise and squeaking going on. Furthermore, when a note is stopped manually, there's a little bit of noise from that, too.

2. Related to #1, unless you're FULLY sustaining a note, don't use a release envelope. The note should basically stop suddenly since, as I said, real players will mute notes before they ring out fully.

3. Palm mute playing. Many people ignore the use of muted notes (palm mutes) entirely, so their sequenced guitar sounds awful. 99% of the time, your guitar riff is going to use some kind of muting, not just open strings. So watch for that.

4. Realistic rhythms. Listen to classic rock and metal riffs. So many people write these plain quarter-note guitar parts that no real guitarist would play simply because they lack any rhythmic interest whatsoever. That's a major giveaway of sequenced guitar, beyond the samples and other production values. Write good parts!

These are important things. ^ Listen to this man.

[Nabeel Ansari]

This thread has been officially derailed to be an extension of Ghetto Lee Lewis's "I hate guitarists" thread.

The point is, don't listen to Ghetto Lee 100%, because he is a very picky pianist. Sequencing piano isn't as hard for pleasing people as he makes it out to be. Just have fun with your arrangement and be LIBERAL and DYNAMIC.

[SteelSlasher]

another question which is actually on topic, how should i choose a song to remix?

[DarkeSword]

This thread has been officially derailed to be an extension of Ghetto Lee Lewis's "I hate guitarists" thread.

The point is, don't listen to Ghetto Lee 100%, because he is a very picky pianist.

This thread hasn't been "officially" anything. Stop trolling.

[eilios]

another question which is actually on topic, how should i choose a song to remix?

Make two circles, one inside the outer one. Call the outer one "1" and the inner one "2". The circles are:

1: Video game songs I like

2: Video games songs I can work with

Pick from the second category.

[Nabeel Ansari]

make two circles, one inside the outer one. Call the outer one "1" and the inner one "2". The circles are:

1: Video game songs i like

2: Video games songs i can work with

pick from the second category.

This ^^^^^