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League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!


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I'm fine with jungling as it is now. It's part of the basic things you need for a solid team. You can't say tanking is overpowered because you always need a tank, it's just something you need in your team to be effective. Plus it adds taht element of tension to laning. Laning is pretty boring already, if they nerf jungling so you have to fear less that jungler gank then it will take away some fun from that phase of the game.

But I'm saying it shouldn't be a requirement. 2/1/2 should be just as valid as jungling. Riot agrees with me on this which is why they're changing it. In DotA or HoN, jungling IS an option but it's not a requirement, so it makes the game more tactically interesting on that level. Just like how tri-laning is viable in those games too. The more things that become "requirements", the less interesting the game is. I've heard that at high levels of play, it's a requirement to either pick or ban heroes like Ashe and Soraka. That's not good balance.

Then again, there's something to be said for letting things simmer. Stop buffing/nerfing things, wait a few months and see how the game evolves. That is how it's always been done in fighting games. Sometimes people discover aspects of particular underappreciated characters that make them a lot more viable, or they find counters to ones thought previously strong.

Edited by zircon
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we'll add you - we usually do an ARAM or two every night.

I think the reason jungling works so well in LoL compared to HoN/DotA has little to do with the buffs -- while they are nice and do allow a wider variety of characters to jungle, they are not the game changers that force the 2/1/1/jungle lane composition.

Tower damage is.

In HoN/DotA, the reason you can run the 1/1/3 trilane against 2/1/2 is because you expect to be able to get kills in the trilane to make up for the EXP penalties for sharing amongst three people. Similarly, the 1v2 lane in HoN is something that only a few characters (Hag, Shaman, etc) can do successfully because it is very risky. (Note: pro / premade matches with two trilanes doesn't happen in LoL and I'm not really talking about them, though similar comparisons can be made about towers making you safe under pressure).

In LoL tower diving before level 8 is not realistic -- most characters can't even survive running past the tower. If I am the solo char and they start to tower dive (assuming I have more than 1/3 health), I will usually get _both_ kills. Not sometimes, but usually. The extra tower strength makes you so much safer in LoL that the risk of putting someone in a 1v2 lane is mitigated compared to HoN/DotA where it is an unsafe activity and not usually done in pubs (because you don't trust the pub to handle it).

Compare this to LoL where 2/1/1/jungle is commonplace all the time in pub games, and no one (unless they really suck badly) bitches about having top solo.

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Red Buff is definitely the biggest problem/advantage of jungling though. It's not that it allows a wider variety of characters to jungle but it's basically the equivalent of an earlygame frostwolf skull which is insane for ganking. The benefits of having a champion constantly MIA, combined with the fact that wards last shorter and have a smaller line of sight is a way bigger factor than the viability of 1v2 lanes in LoL vs HoN.

1v2 lanes in LoL aren't a guaranteed win like you're implying, despite LoL being a bit better at countering towerdives. It's not like you can succesfully 1v2 lane a champion like Tryndamere if you're up against something like Alistar/Caitlyn. Not dying in a 1v2 lane doesn't necessarily mean anything if you lose out on XP and farm because of zoning.

In fact, the current trilane metagame in HoN exists exactly for the reason that 1v2 lanes there are so viable: if a 1/1/3 setup plays against a 2/1/2 setup, the carry in the trilane will get insanely fed as a trilane just walks all over the dual lane, while the 1v2 role can be performed by almost any ranged hero.

Also, Shaman is like, never used in high level games. Typical sidelane solos are Hellbringer, Plague Rider, Slither, Wildsoul, Hag and Pharaoh.

Edited by Tensei
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is it just me or would submitting an OCR track for Songs of the Summoned 2 be fantastic?

:D Yeah that would be pretty awesome. That contest is pretty neat. A friend of mine was thinking about it too. I'd do one myself but I'm no good with lyrics, which is a requirement. Might try to think up SOMETHING though.

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Red Buff is definitely the biggest problem/advantage of jungling though. It's not that it allows a wider variety of characters to jungle but it's basically the equivalent of an earlygame frostwolf skull which is insane for ganking. The benefits of having a champion constantly MIA, combined with the fact that wards last shorter and have a smaller line of sight is a way bigger factor than the viability of 1v2 lanes in LoL vs HoN.

Red buff is certainly an issue, sure. How would you feel white (movespeed) and green (attack speed + cooldown reduction) replacing red for the early game, and the lizard camp only spawning after the white/green had been taken once, or something like that?

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I just read the notes. A slight (but important) buff for cassiopeia, yay!. She is my 2nd favorite AP carry (my favorite being brand) and although making miasma permanently uncover grass, it is actually something I've wanted for a long time to help ease laning phase.

Also: new animation and models for Janna. <3

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Regarding HoN vs. LoL hero design, I do think HoN tends to have more interesting abilities. LoL might be more fun overall due to the general game design, but I still think HoN's hero design is more fun.

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I am looking forward to DotA 2 actually. I know that gameplaywise it's supposed to be a carbon copy of the original DotA (and HoN as well, minus the HoN exclusive heroes), and I have full confidence that if there's one company that can make the genre attractive to casual players, it'd be Valve.

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Tier 1 runes aren't bad to start with. For like 2000 IP you can buy pretty much everything you would ever want - armor penetration, attack speed, magic pen, armor, etc. They are about 50% as good as Tier 3 at 10% of the price.

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I think Tier 3 runes only really matter for Junglers and Akali. Akali has a passive that gives her bonus attack damage if she has more than 20 AP, and spell vamp if she has more than 10 AD. With the right runes you can get both of these bonuses without any items which makes a pretty big difference.

As for junglers, it usually makes the difference between being able to take blue at level 1 or not.

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someone with t3 runes will stomp someone with t1 runes if they're decent at the game, though, because the masteries make so much difference. and most of the people i play when i'm not playing with OCR folk are level 30s -_-

Yea that's true. I just mean you don't have to save up for all Tier 3 and use nothing until then. Get tier 1 runes first, and then get tier 3 stuff one by one to replace the t1 (you can also use combining to make it go faster.)

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