Tensei Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 ^^ Pretty much the reason I've stopped playing soloqueue. The game is just way more fun with a team of people you know, even if they aren't the best at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 This is true for every team game ever. Also I thought this was relevant: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/learn/dota_and_lol League of Legends is even more of a team game – We know that teamwork is one of the most important parts of DotA, but we wanted to put even more focus on it in League of Legends. In addition to the pre-game team decisions such as summoner spells and Runes, we’ve added a number of team objectives to the map, such as epic monsters, (which replace DotA’s runes), and team experience for killing towers. Games are decided by which teams win team fights – not which guy solo farms an agility carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) Brad, I would say it's a bad idea to play tanks in pub games for that very reason. I just assume that my team is going to be useless and never do anything properly. Thus playing strong nukers (AP carries), ranged or melee AD is usually the best route. Tanky DPS is also a good bet generally (Jarvan, Lee Sin/Xin with Warmog's, Nasus, Garen, Renekton...) The other alternative is to play a very strong ganker like Xin, Singed or Trundle. If you can dominate incredibly hard early you can create a big advantage. Of course this doesn't always work, but I think playing tanks and support WILL get you really frustrated due to the very low skill of most pubs. When it comes to farming, just practice your last hitting a lot and ignore stuff in lane to get CS. A good goal is something like 70-80 creeps in 10 minutes. Once you get the rhythm of your character's attack down, it should be like second nature. Also, people often spend way too much time milling around the map when they could be farming. So instead of trying to do that when your team is too dumb to buy wards, just go farm Edited August 30, 2011 by zircon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) to be honest, the fact that it's about teamfights and not your one star overpowering their one star is a good thing. i feel it makes for a game where everyone is contributing the whole time. while you still have teams built around one character like karth, sion, or kog'maw, everyone is still a critical member of that team, and any of those players can significantly increase your chance at winning with a skillful play. i don't feel that that is represented in what little i've watched of HoN or DotA. edit: yeah, andy, i know. i don't choose to play tanks in pub games - i usually get stuck with them because i don't jump in and auto-lock my favorite character. singed, however, is someone i'm really looking forward to getting. i think that i'd be pretty darn good with him just because all you need to do is toss shit and stack belts the last few games i've led my team in creep kills, so that's definitely starting to help. it's always hard to farm early-game with tanks, but i'm getting better. udyr and amumu can annihilate creep lanes by level seven or so, so once we're out of the laning phase and the rest of the team is ratballing i'll usually stay in lanes and farm up so i've got my thornmail/frozen heart and FoN/banshee's as soon as possible. i've been getting both by level 12 or 13 lately, which is awesome. it's just that anyone can farm with special attacks like udyr's tiger stance or amumu's tantrum/despair. i'm just not good at using auto-attacks yet. sooner or later i'll get it =) Edited August 30, 2011 by prophetik music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 On other hand, it makes it practically impossible to 4v5, while in HoN a player dropping is often not an automatic death sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I really dislike their design policy concerning that, because again: what is the purpose of having a carry archetype if every other champion scales more or less equally well with farm? to be honest, the fact that it's about teamfights and not your one star overpowering their one star is a good thing. i feel it makes for a game where everyone is contributing the whole time. This isn't the case at all though, and that quote Dhsu posted completely misrepresents the way Dota plays out, most likely in order to make LoL seem more appealing. They also mention how LoL is supposedly 'less defensive' when typical high level LoL games have <5 kills in the first 30 minutes, whereas in the Dota 2 games shown in the international it wasn't uncommon for there to be like one kill per minute. 'Solo farming' an agility carry is something that only happens with a huge skill gap. Given equal skill for all players, getting your carry farmed is very much a team goal (Babysitting, Warding, Ganking/Counterganking, pushing towers to draw attention away from your carry, etc.) and it can't be pulled off by one guy just being good at lasthitting, not to mention that playing a carry-centric turtle strategy is only one out of a lot of options for overall team strategies. E: 4v5s in HoN play out strangely, and it mostly depends on the point at which a player dropped out, as well as what heroes were picked. Overall, a good team can make use of the extra XP and gold they get and there is a window of time where they can win while they're outleveling the enemy team by 2-3 levels, but as the game drags on their chances get slimmer. Edited August 30, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 On other hand, it makes it practically impossible to 4v5, while in HoN a player dropping is often not an automatic death sentence. i wish they'd give you a vote to replace leavers after a few minutes with bots that were worth little gold upon death. it means that the other team can get kills, and that your lane isn't completely hosed if you have someone DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I really dislike their design policy concerning that, because again: what is the purpose of having a carry archetype if every other champion scales more or less equally well with farm? Well, they don't really... a champ like Tryndamere benefits way more from farm than Garen, Brand scales better than Vlad, Ashe carries harder than Caitlyn, etc. So I don't know about that. As for <5 kills in 30 minutes, again that's at high level play where the rules are basically different. In the games of LoL that I play in, there are dozens of kills by 30 minutes. It's a different game at our level. If I ever get to the point where I'm in the top 1% where the game is ultra-passive, enough time will have gone by for Riot to correct it by tweaking the game's design. Also Dominion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 lee sin is so fucking broken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) Well, they don't really... a champ like Tryndamere benefits way more from farm than Garen, Brand scales better than Vlad, Ashe carries harder than Caitlyn, etc. So I don't know about that. The differences in carry viability between all those champs you listed are negligible as they all scale very well with farm. A farmed Garen is still a huge threat, same with Vlad and Caitlyn. So are Soraka, Janna, Rammus, Alistar etc etc. for that matter. Edited August 30, 2011 by Tensei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Again, I don't think that's true. I've played a pretty wide range of champions to maximum farm (every item slot filled) and some very clearly scale far better than others. Pretty sure Zero can back me up on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I have played most of the Champions in the game and the linear scaling is one of the reasons that really turned me off from it, so yeah. We'll agree to disagree I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirby Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Now that I have this again, feel free to add me to the OP. As Mirby, go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Again, I don't think that's true. I've played a pretty wide range of champions to maximum farm (every item slot filled) and some very clearly scale far better than others. Pretty sure Zero can back me up on this. While _some_ scale more than others, there are AP nukers (Annie, Anivia, and even Kennen) that can absolutely trash a hero lategame -- this is simply not the case with Pyromancer, who against a carry with max gear just gets eaten alive, and only serves to throw out the stun. LoL overall has almost every archetype scaling well into the endgame, while in HoN auto-attacking heroes will eventually rule the field, leaving supports to clutch stun / tablet someone around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah, but arguably those HoN supports last longer too because there's no such thing as tenacity, and stuns are way more powerful. So your Behemoth will always be a good initiator even if he's not doing much damage by the end, Pollywog can still disable/push left and right, etc. Even if their actual NUMBERS aren't scaling much, they have a lot more utility on average. And, having played a max-farmed Brand in a recent game where we still lost, I don't think those AP carries scale as well as champions like Poppy or Tryn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirby Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well, having played my first LoL match in nearly a year, it's good to see that they haven't changed Heimer that much. Also good to see that it's still very back and forth; still very fun. ^.^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well, having played my first LoL match in nearly a year, it's good to see that they haven't changed Heimer that much.Also good to see that it's still very back and forth; still very fun. ^.^ you'd be able to see more if your computer wasn't made out of rich mahogany. or a toaster, for all we know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirby Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I think if I could afford a rich mahogany case for my computer, it would run better. And it would have a built-in toaster too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah, but arguably those HoN supports last longer too because there's no such thing as tenacity, and stuns are way more powerful. So your Behemoth will always be a good initiator even if he's not doing much damage by the end, Pollywog can still disable/push left and right, etc. Even if their actual NUMBERS aren't scaling much, they have a lot more utility on average. Yeah, but the cooldowns are such that you'll generally be doing nothing for ten seconds after blowing all your spells (which won't be doing a lot of damage by that point). Polly and Behemoth are useful through most of the game because they can consistently put out disables, but heroes like Pyromancer and Thunderbringer will bring very little to the table even in terms of utility later on, as Bardic pointed out, unless they're having a good game and managed to get a fast sheepstick. Shrunken Head and Nullstone are still staple carry items btw. My point is that with a maxed out Brand you could probably still bring the enemy carry down in a single spell rotation, BV aside, but you do actually need to have farmed that Rabaddon's/Mejai's first, and that's where the difference with HoN lies. While TB and Pyro don't do much lategame, they can just dominate early/mid by keeping the enemy carry from farming, and secure the win for their team like that without even taking their shitty lategame into consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BardicKnowledge Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 My point is that with a maxed out Brand you could probably still bring the enemy carry down in a single spell rotation, BV aside, but you do actually need to have farmed that Rabaddon's/Mejai's first, and that's where the difference with HoN lies. While TB and Pyro don't do much lategame, they can just dominate early/mid by keeping the enemy carry from farming, and secure the win for their team like that without even taking their shitty lategame into consideration. Even if a LoL caster could take down carries midgame without the big items, the fact that they need to farm just as much (or more) as an AD carry means that they don't spend their midgame wrecking faces -- they spend it inlane farming up for a single lategame team fight. After I get my Rabadon's I tend to farm up Banshee's until my lane is down. With Polly / Pyromancer, after I get boots I am out of lane ganking. The only early conflict, even in pro games, revovles around dragon. Anything else is not worth enough to leave your lane over. ^Edit: Assuming that no team can get a tower advantage without someone leaving lane, of course...which is often true in pro games because they just passively farm up right next to each other, since there's no denying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yeah, exactly. I have never really had that feeling of "Okay, we better win this early, because their lategame is way better." in LoL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I've had games where I basically ignored my team and just farmed the whole time. From experience, I can tell you it doesn't work that well if the other team is actively ganking and pushing. Passive farming as a strategy kind of only works if everyone is doing it, including the other team. The games where I've made the most difference have been when I ganked often enough to create more map control for my team and create a big gold advantage. Also, like I said, I've maxed my farm out on a number of champions recently and been unable to win lategame even in 1v1s; some champs have a CLEAR scaling advantage. For example, Poppy, Tryndamere, Warwick and Ashe. Your maxed out Cho'Gath is not going to be a big threat compared to my maxed out Corki. On the other hand, even a maxed Yi isn't unstoppable if the other team plays well and has good team comp (tanky DPS, disables.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Just finished a game as Mundo where I maxed out my farm. I was able to go where I pleased, which was right up to their inner towers and inhibs and knock them down with little problems. EDIT: Assuming that's Arctic Warfare Caitlyn. Do I like that skin enough to buy an actual magazine? I didn't even realize those things still existed. Edited September 1, 2011 by Dexie MUNDO EDITS WHAT HE PLEASES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 the problem with kat is that all of her artwork looks great - only new janna has a better 'figure' - but all of her in-game artwork is basically a palette swap. it's kind of great because they make her look like this death goddess and then all you see is this crazy hair-scarf-thingie. i don't play cait enough to want a skin for her, as ranged AD champs represent my worst gameplay in LoL. i used to have a yearly subscription to PC Gamer for roughly 3$ a year, but i got sick of the useless articles and the fact that - gasp - game informer was usually better researched, had more information, and better and more introspective commentary...which isn't saying much, i know. plus PC Gamer feels like it's written on toilet paper, and is clearly marketing to underage boys (see above picture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Your maxed out Cho'Gath is not going to be a big threat compared to my maxed out Corki. Cho would destroy Corki if both were build complete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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