League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[relyanCe]

I know talking about Kassadin is generally a waste of time considering his ~99% ban rate, BUT

Kassadin Jungle - Could it work with the new Jungle items? I've only tried it in custom games, but maxing W with AS marks and AP Quints/Glyphs makes for a seriously potent post-6 clear. With blue he literally NEVER runs out of mana, even with 3-4 stacks on his R. Popping out of the jungle with a stacked R into a silence/slow combo with redbuff Autos at high ranks of W into botlane... free doubles for days.

Gonna try it in a few bot games today, maybe some blink picks too. I think it could be an interesting blindside pick for OCR Heroes if he isn't banned, since you could counter mid's attempt to instantly counter kass. And if the enemy teams rolls with a magic damage jungler like amumu... talk about a free jungle. Then again, pre-6 a lee sin or udyr could crush his slowstart before it even begins. Thoughts from you guys?

[The Derrit]

I know talking about Kassadin is generally a waste of time considering his ~99% ban rate, BUT

Kassadin Jungle - Could it work with the new Jungle items? I've only tried it in custom games, but maxing W with AS marks and AP Quints/Glyphs makes for a seriously potent post-6 clear. With blue he literally NEVER runs out of mana, even with 3-4 stacks on his R. Popping out of the jungle with a stacked R into a silence/slow combo with redbuff Autos at high ranks of W into botlane... free doubles for days.

Gonna try it in a few bot games today, maybe some blink picks too. I think it could be an interesting blindside pick for OCR Heroes if he isn't banned, since you could counter mid's attempt to instantly counter kass. And if the enemy teams rolls with a magic damage jungler like amumu... talk about a free jungle. Then again, pre-6 a lee sin or udyr could crush his slowstart before it even begins. Thoughts from you guys?

give him a lich bane and it wouldn't even be fair.

[zircon]

Eight game losing streak. I hate this game sometimes. Every game I've DOMINATED my lane... roamed, helped other lanes, done objectives, etc. But for some reason in these last EIGHT GAMES I've had people so terrible, SO incredibly bad, that they throw our leads no matter how far ahead we are. I'm talking like going 6/0 in mid or at bot, pushing tower, pushing OTHER towers, getting dragons, and still losing because people are so atrocious at decision-making that they get caught and die over and over and we lose.

Just venting. I don't belong in Silver II.

[relyanCe]

Eight game losing streak. I hate this game sometimes. Every game I've DOMINATED my lane... roamed, helped other lanes, done objectives, etc. But for some reason in these last EIGHT GAMES I've had people so terrible, SO incredibly bad, that they throw our leads no matter how far ahead we are. I'm talking like going 6/0 in mid or at bot, pushing tower, pushing OTHER towers, getting dragons, and still losing because people are so atrocious at decision-making that they get caught and die over and over and we lose.

Just venting. I don't belong in Silver II.

soloq blues

feel it in your soul

[Koriantor]

But for some reason in these last EIGHT GAMES I've had people so terrible, SO incredibly bad, that they throw our leads no matter how far ahead we are. I'm talking like going 6/0 in mid or at bot, pushing tower, pushing OTHER towers, getting dragons, and still losing because people are so atrocious at decision-making that they get caught and die over and over and we lose.

My last two games were with Zirc. One of them I was jungle and zirc was mid. Zirc was doing awesome, but top and bottom had horrendous decision making that lost their lane super hard. I couldn't help both top and bot. Such PAAAAAAAAIN.

Unrelated: I just picked up Vi. I like her. Her natural damage is so flipping high. Fun jungle pick.

[k-wix]

Eight game losing streak. I hate this game sometimes. Every game I've DOMINATED my lane... roamed, helped other lanes, done objectives, etc. But for some reason in these last EIGHT GAMES I've had people so terrible, SO incredibly bad, that they throw our leads no matter how far ahead we are. I'm talking like going 6/0 in mid or at bot, pushing tower, pushing OTHER towers, getting dragons, and still losing because people are so atrocious at decision-making that they get caught and die over and over and we lose.

Just venting. I don't belong in Silver II.

I am just 100% so completely with you. I've lost the last 7 games, and usually straight up decimate my lane.

[kitty]

Not saying you guys are at fault but just want to throw out some tips that might help you mitigate losses. I know zircon already said he helps push other towers and dragons etc., but I find that as a laner you should be ganking other lanes a lot even before you finish taking your tower. I find this especially true for mid. There have been plenty of times that I dominate the enemy laner but they just leave and get kills in other lanes. I know this isn't going to prevent poor decision making, but it helps the other lanes not feed as much, makes them more likely to follow your advice/suggestions, and it feeds you even more with high gold rewards.

I was telling zircon last night that if two lanes are feeding, the jungler needs to make a decision on which lane to help first/most/only. Typically I end up ignoring bot lane as a jungler because 1. when I gank it's only a 3v2 whereas it's a 2v1 in other lanes; 2. it's a lane that's more likely to be warded because there is a support and the ADC has a trinket as well; 3. if mid is doing well then they should be able to blow up an ADC that's ahead.

[The Derrit]

i just played in a 3.25v5 and won

everyone on my team except for me (skarner) and a kayle were constantly disconnecting while the other team had 5 and me and kayle just dumpstered their whole team anyways

felt good

[Seven]

kayle

kekekeke. Just half-kidding, winning games when you're down players is so satisfying! Couple weeks ago I won a normal game 4v5 playing as Nautilus. Still did near top damage cuz people just let me sit on them with sunfire + W damage.

Jungle Kass: When you're playing these type of non-playmaking junglers, it's really up to the team to either make/help it work or the enemy team to let it work. I don't know if Kass could duel someone like Amumu in the early levels, let alone Vi/Elise/Lee/KZ etc. In my opinion Kass is essentially a high-risk, high-reward jungler like Jax or Riven. You can carry the game, or you can fall flat and be a non-factor as well.

Zircon: The key is not to tilt. Always take a 5-10 minute break to reflect and wind down after each game, especially a loss. If you lose two or three in a row, take a break for at least 20-30 mins. I walled myself into Silver last season and ragequeued from Silver I to Silver V on 2 or 3 separate occasions; this season I recently hit GoldV just by fixing my attitude.

As far as in-game advice goes, try to be vocal if you are in the position to carry a game. Give your team directions, both in terms of general game plan and specific things as you rotate around the map. If they ignore the plan or make stupid mistakes there's nothing you can do regardless. As qtpie recently said- if you're 20-0 then the onus is on you to close out the game from that position. Granted, some games are just unwinnable and you have to take them as a lesson and move on.

Also from what I've gathered Kitty is a relatively high-level player so listen to him. xd

Edit - My summoner name is Bironzu, I'll add you guys!

Edited February 19, 2014 by Seven

[relyanCe]

Jungle Kass: When you're playing these type of non-playmaking junglers, it's really up to the team to either make/help it work or the enemy team to let it work. I don't know if Kass could duel someone like Amumu in the early levels, let alone Vi/Elise/Lee/KZ etc. In my opinion Kass is essentially a high-risk, high-reward jungler like Jax or Riven. You can carry the game, or you can fall flat and be a non-factor as well.

The thing that I think separates Kass from Jax/Riven is the absolutely GODMODE jungle mobility and midgame camp clear. He annihilates even buff camps in 4 seconds flat (before even his w goes on cd) and that would simply invalidate the enemy jungler (granted he can get to six safely), which would completely negate the need to duel down an enemy jungler for camps in the first place; he'd just flash over walls constantly. Combine that with his already stupid-tier lane mobility aaaaaaand I just can't wait to actually try it

also not sure if spectral wraith for spellvamp or ancient golem for tenacity since he needs both but can't compromise with merc treads because mobi boots are so stupid good

Edited February 19, 2014 by relyanCe

[zircon]

I guarantee 100% none of these losses are even close to my fault. I know what tilting is, and I know what it's like to end games 3-5-7 etc. I'm talking about games where I do everything I possibly can, and people THROW IT. Like just now, I had a game where:

1. The enemy team was clearly doing baron. I pinged not to go, I explicitly said "Don't go to baron", and 2 people went anyway and died.

2. Our ADC tried to fight in a 3v5 when the other 2 on our team clearly were not there (or anywhere close), and he died.

3. Our jungler getting pulled by a Thresh when we had clear vision of the enemy team.

Or in another game, I was supporting a Draven who ended 3-11. He would just always walk in front of the team and get killed by the enemy Leona. What can you do about that? Can you ping? Of course! We all did. Can you *nicely* say, "Draven, please stay in back?" Yes! We did that too. Can I, as the support, use ALL of my abilities to prevent him from dying? Yep. But even landing perfect bubbles and tidal waves doesn't matter if the players have such bad awareness that they get caught over and over and over out of position.

Mistakes like these have nothing to do with me. I can win my lane, I can gank, I can roam, I can call things and try to get people to play properly. But when they make such incredibly game-throwing mistakes, there is not a damn thing I can do about it. It's just the luck of a draw. In all of my last 10 games, I can't think of a single situation where a mistake I made caused us to lose even an objective, much less the game. In fact I think my playing has been better than ever, particularly in mid.

Just ask the people I have been duoing with. You don't understand how bad these players are. I thought Bronze was elo hell but this is somehow much, much worse than I can ever remember. I think it has to do with the S4 reset and people just not being placed at their skill level, so they're making beginner mistakes and terrible decisions.

Edited February 19, 2014 by zircon

[Seven]

I know the feeling all too well X_X. It's much easier to say 'just shrug it off and move on' than actually doing that. Frustration builds up and it just comes down to finding a way to deal with it. If you're genuinely improving then it's just a matter of time before you move up. It's so infuriating when you can feel you've improved, and you outplay your lane opponent, but it's not quite enough to outright carry a given game.

I was a Master player in SC2 (in WoL) and while the mechanical complexity of League is lower, the team aspect of the game makes it so much harder to see tangible results of individual improvement. It was irritating how I could be in the top 1-3% of SC2 players in NA but stuck in Silver in League for so long. "The best part of team games is that you have other people to rely on. The worst part of team games is that you have to rely on other people."

Just ask the people I have been duoing with.

I could be wrong, but I've read (and experienced, after a ton of duo games with my brother, who reached Gold2 last season) that duo queueing makes ranking up considerably more difficult. From my understanding when you duo queue, the matchmaking system gives you extra MMR and puts you with some combination of lower MMR players on your team or higher MMR players on the other team in order to 'compensate' for the potential advantage duo queueing can give you to begin with.

Edit - It can be quite difficult to carry as a support in lower division just because of the nature of how ADC/Support picks work. You have to work with someone you don't know in the laning phase, and even if you get ahead the ADC often becomes cocky and makes stupid mistakes. Mained support last season and just could not move up from Silver1. If you get stuck supporting I highly recommend Annie, Thresh, Lulu or Leona as these champions are somewhat failsafe. Nami is my favorite support (my most played champ by far S3, followed by Lulu and Thresh) but the one bubble you miss can cost a fight or the game.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Seven

[The Derrit]

frankly the idea that riot and a significant portion of their audience subscribes to, that the only important piece of information that your status should be based on is whether you won or lost, is stupid.

it's obviously not. if you go 15-2 and still lose, you played well. you deserve a reward. it is impossible in every way to do that well and have contributed to why your team lost, even in a good close game. in the same vein, someone who is power-ranking with a duo much better than them doesn't deserve tons of LP for getting 45 CS as an ADC and going 2-8. that person doesn't deserve the same reward as the person who made up for that ADC's ineptitude by being a boss and carrying the team.

it goes without saying that if game stats were used to determine LP games *along with* win/loss, the stratification of skill levels between leagues would immediately become more apparent and consistent. not only that, it would limit the effectiveness of intentional trolling and feeding, punish people for giving up in the middle of a game, and reward them for solid fundamental play.

but you know, ELO system.

[relyanCe]

It is weird how Riot is ostensibly able to track and record EVERY important statistic for soloq players (cs, kda, objectives, hell, i bet they could record skillshots landed), and yet the only thing they use to aggregate LP awards are wins and losses.

for ranked 5, I can understand win/loss, since you're a team, and that's how teams are measured. but seriously let's face soloq is about who is the better carry on a team of dopes

[Seven]

I may be misunderstanding what you guys are getting at, but I don't think it's that Riot thinks W/L is the only important factor to LP gain/loss. The problem is: how do you even begin to quantify the countless number of variables into a tangible ranking system?

For example, if high CS counts could earn you potential LP, junglers and especially supports would get shafted in this regard. High KDA rewards? People arguing even MORE than they do now to go mid, playing snowbally champs and being toxic to try to get that bonus LP. Objectives? You can lose the game with a 11 to 5 tower advantage, should your LP loss get cushioned because you got out-bruteforced by the enemy team?

As a player who is stuck with awful hardware (getting a new PC soon), I prefer a split-push oriented style: drawing people around the map, rotating etc as opposed to team fighting. I've had a number of 0/X/0 games where the enemy team praises/curses me for carrying just by constantly pressuring lanes. Do I deserve less LP because I had no direct kill participation?

[Bleck]

The problem is: how do you even begin to quantify the countless number of variables into a tangible ranking system?

you don't

having a(n accurate) rating system for a team game is literally impossible

Edited February 19, 2014 by Bleck

[The Derrit]

I may be misunderstanding what you guys are getting at, but I don't think it's that Riot thinks W/L is the only important factor to LP gain/loss. The problem is: how do you even begin to quantify the countless number of variables into a tangible ranking system?

For example, if high CS counts could earn you potential LP, junglers and especially supports would get shafted in this regard. High KDA rewards? People arguing even MORE than they do now to go mid, playing snowbally champs and being toxic to try to get that bonus LP. Objectives? You can lose the game with a 11 to 5 tower advantage, should your LP loss get cushioned because you got out-bruteforced by the enemy team?

As a player who is stuck with awful hardware (getting a new PC soon), I prefer a split-push oriented style: drawing people around the map, rotating etc as opposed to team fighting. I've had a number of 0/X/0 games where the enemy team praises/curses me for carrying just by constantly pressuring lanes. Do I deserve less LP because I had no direct kill participation?

No, but if you go 0/8/0 and your team still wins, are you the reason your team won? Or are you the reason that your team had to squeak it out?

0/0/0 is not a bad score. There would be no reason to penalize that in any way.

KDA being how you get LP is not what I'm arguing for. But if you're 1/7/0, haven't helped push any towers, have half the CS of the rest of the players, and happen to be on the winning team, should you get the same 15 LP that I get if we're the same ELO and I've been pushing towers and getting kills/assists in teamfights? Absolutely not.

There are all sorts of good scores. going 0/2/11 is great; you supported your team either from support or as a tank or whatever. Going 14/2/5 is great; you got kills and effectively dealt damage throughout the game. Going 6/4/7 is great; you disrupted the enemy team and intimidated them with your damage as a bruiser.

What everyone knows is that 3/9/2 is not good, effective play. 0/15/0 is not good effective play. 6/16/3 is not good effective play. Not helping get any objectives is not good effective play. Not interacting with champions throughout the course of a game is not good effective play.

Yet someone who does the former (ex. 14/2/5 with great CS and objectives) and someone who does the latter (ex. 0/12/0 with no CS and 5 pairs of boots) are rewarded the same, if they are on the same team.

Statistics are there to be used - statistics are used in athletics to compare athletes. In science to measure results. LoL mixes both fields, and as of right now throws away all statistics that aren't Win/Loss, because 'carry harder.'

It's absurd for them to be able to say with a straight face, "this is a good system. We're going to keep using it and not look for other solutions."

[relyanCe]

I may be misunderstanding what you guys are getting at, but I don't think it's that Riot thinks W/L is the only important factor to LP gain/loss. The problem is: how do you even begin to quantify the countless number of variables into a tangible ranking system?

You aggregate. I'm sure there are PLENTY of statisticians out there who would scoff at our perception of the project's difficulty.

For example, if high CS counts could earn you potential LP, junglers and especially supports would get shafted in this regard. High KDA rewards? People arguing even MORE than they do now to go mid, playing snowbally champs and being toxic to try to get that bonus LP. Objectives? You can lose the game with a 11 to 5 tower advantage, should your LP loss get cushioned because you got out-bruteforced by the enemy team?

Try to get out of the win/loss norm to think about this. Winning and losing should factor into how you gain and lose LP, but it should not be the ONLY factor. Losing should not result in a straightup LP loss that is mitigated by other factors, nor should winning be an LP gain that is reduced by other factors. They should be EQUATED to other factors.

As a player who is stuck with awful hardware (getting a new PC soon), I prefer a split-push oriented style: drawing people around the map, rotating etc as opposed to team fighting. I've had a number of 0/X/0 games where the enemy team praises/curses me for carrying just by constantly pressuring lanes. Do I deserve less LP because I had no direct kill participation?

If you are split pushing constantly, your cs should be huge, and that should factor into how the game determines your skill. It is dishonest to slap you in the face with LP loss if your team cannot properly capitalize on a useful strategy and win.

That being said, just because people think you are carrying by split pushing does not mean that it is true. A split push can win OR lose a game, but it can also just as easily be a non-issue in the game's outcome. If you don't have the huge cs, assists, low deaths, etc., necessary for being a good split pusher that HELPS a team win, then it's quite likely you aren't as big a factor as it would seem to other players.

On the same token, some with huge KDA isn't necessarily a help to his team. If he or she is prioritizing that alone, their cs/presence/objectives might not be there, and if a player otherwise skilled enough to score kills isn't working towards other factors that determine a win, how good at League is this player actually? Even if he wins in low elo, are mechanics alone the skills you need to win in high elo? Nope.

People who are practicing to increase their ability at the GAME of League of Legends should not be punished in soloq because the system is deliberately set up to (fairly, granted) give each player a roughly 50/50 winloss. Rising in elo right now is basically gaming the system by prioritizing the best way to carry and hoping their team isn't too heavy, and that's a shitty way to rise through the ranks.

That's how I (half-bakedly, of course) think the LP system could change for the better. It would enforce good play in every individual summoner, as it's no longer JUST about getting more wins and losses, but being good at the GAME itself, which right now ISN'T necessary to rise through the ranks.

[Nabeel Ansari]

it's obviously not. if you go 15-2 and still lose, you played well. you deserve a reward. it is impossible in every way to do that well and have contributed to why your team lost, even in a good close game.

I went 15/2 and afk'd in last ten minutes

team lost

obv their fault not mine

The thing about making a "performance" ranking system is that in order to do that you need to enforce a meta. You need to have the system itself identify different roles and judge them accordingly to those roles.

For example, the normal support is not about KDA. Normal supports should not be rewarded for insane KDA. However, if the ranking system is to acknowledge this, it has to treat every game the same and assume that someone will queue and play the role of the traditional support and not anything else.

You can not judge the 5 players on a team the same way because they share different roles, but for an automated system to judge these roles, it needs to assume what player is doing what and in what context. The only true way to judge player performance is actual, human analysis. And that will never happen.

statistics are used in athletics to compare athletes

You're forgetting the crucial fact that athletics takes place in physical reality and is judged by human beings. It isn't an automated process, they don't feed recordings of athletes into a computer and ask for a grade report on how well they did. That's why it can be specific and effective, because humans are more capable of judging these things without hard constraints than a computer (which needs hard constraints for an algorithm to function).

Edited February 19, 2014 by Neblix

[Brushfire]

Oy, me and my sports casting crew want to stream the next OCR heroes games. What time are you guys planning on playing next?

[Seven]

I typed up a response and my browser wonked out, but Neblix pretty much got the same point I was going to make across. How would you weigh different statistics against each other? Is 50 CS equivalent to like .7 KDA? I don't think there's a reasonable way of going about that calibration process. You would just end up enforcing or encouraging a certain playstyle or strategy based on how much value is placed on a given variable.

That said, I wanted to pose a question, and I hope it doesn't come across the wrong way: do those in favor of weighted LP distribution (I guess talking about relyance and Derrit here) honestly feel it is too hard to rank up? Marginal skill increase may not result in significant LP gains, but if you truly are improving then you will move up at some pace no matter what. A friend of mine moved from Silver to Diamond in a fraction of the amount of time I spent streaking my way up and down Silver last season. When I play normals with him, I can just feel the sheer difference in mechanics and decision making between us. Situations that I would run away from, he goes in and gets a triple kill.

I guess what I'm getting at is that while weighted LP is interesting, I don't believe it is necessary in order to help move players where they belong. You will move up or down based on your play relative to those you're playing with, it's just a matter of how long it takes.

[relyanCe]

it would be difficult to figure out and might be initially problematic so we shouldn't do it

yeah fuck inovation

[kitty]

frankly the idea that riot and a significant portion of their audience subscribes to, that the only important piece of information that your status should be based on is whether you won or lost, is stupid.

it's obviously not. if you go 15-2 and still lose, you played well. you deserve a reward. it is impossible in every way to do that well and have contributed to why your team lost, even in a good close game. in the same vein, someone who is power-ranking with a duo much better than them doesn't deserve tons of LP for getting 45 CS as an ADC and going 2-8. that person doesn't deserve the same reward as the person who made up for that ADC's ineptitude by being a boss and carrying the team.

it goes without saying that if game stats were used to determine LP games *along with* win/loss, the stratification of skill levels between leagues would immediately become more apparent and consistent. not only that, it would limit the effectiveness of intentional trolling and feeding, punish people for giving up in the middle of a game, and reward them for solid fundamental play.

but you know, ELO system.

What Neblix wrote is basically why none of this would work. Also what Seven said about teammates fighting over kills or CS or w/e would also be a reason why this would not work.

What you said about LP is just NOT how the system works, by the way. You do NOT necessarily gain/lose the same LP as anyone on your team. Your LP changes based on your own MMR. The only time I've seen this not be the case was very early in Season 3 when I duo queued (haven't tested since then b/c idgaf anymore). I've had friends in Bronze and I queued as Gold and they still gained/loss the same amount of LP as before even with the average rank of the enemy team being mid-high Silver. Likewise, I still gained massive amounts of LP when one would believe that I should be earning less. However, if I recall correctly (I probably don't), the system needs a few consistent wins for your MMR to "break" out of its standing. In other words, if the system strongly believes a player belongs in Silver IV, then it will not award/take high amounts of LP for wins/losses. But say you win 5 games in a row (no basis for this number), then it will start giving more LP because it thinks it needs to move you up.

Oy, me and my sports casting crew want to stream the next OCR heroes games. What time are you guys planning on playing next?

Our tournament is this Saturday. Keep watching this thread though, since we might have practice some time before then.

Edited February 20, 2014 by kitty

[Brushfire]

Been trying to get a highlight reel made from the stuff Skyrider sent me, but it is not cooperating with that replay player that is out. So streaming the games is next best option, and we can pull highlight from that and not miss any of the action.

Imma need a thing though. An OCR Heroes Logo that has a cropped out background. Wanna build a channel overlay for a stream.

[Brushfire]

This is a mockup of what the prior to broadcast would be. This would be used while we, as spectators, would have up while we wait for the 2 minute delay before the match would start. The background image rotates every 25 seconds, and music would be played over it.

The 10 Years logo is a place holder for the OCR Heroes logo.

The text says "Standby - The Broadcast will Begin Shortly!"

The Brushfire thing in the bottom flickers on and off in the neon!