Zerothemaster Posted August 15, 2011 Share Posted August 15, 2011 Hey guys, I made this mix for the PRC 199, and I really liked it, and thought that I might be able to improve it enough to submit it, so I was wondering if the helpful community out there would offer some suggestions to me. http://soundcloud.com/zerothemaster/evolution Source: It's a combination of Ethereal, Dubstep and chiptune music. I know that the ending is a little muddy and can be fixed, but is there any other suggestions? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 bump. Don't know if I can, but I will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phonetic Hero Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 The first like, 1:45 feels sort of directionless. The wub is really weird feeling at points too, like it doesn't sync up like it should. The bass drum feels out of time with the chip stuff at certain points too, especially when it first comes in; I was REALLY disoriented when those first bass hits start. That being said, I REALLY enjoy the segment that starts at 1:52. The chip drums are freaking awesome, and it has the potential to get obnoxiously chorus-y, which I'm a huge fan of. But, it'll take some filling out. The soundscape in general feels a little unnecessarily thin right now. Add some meat! Good luck dude, I look forward to seeing where this goes pH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I have a hard time assosiating chip-tunes to Deus Ex, but apparently you pulled it off pretty well I do agree that it does meander a bit - but I really dig the crazy Dubstepp-ish wa wa sound in the background Maybe make the lead melody. OCR seems to have a thing against meandering ambience, which imo is a tad on the pretentious side, but whatever... 1:58 is a great change up though =D The clap sound is kinda thin & a little too campy sounding to me though. I think this track could benefit from some better/hardcore drum samples - maybe make them distorted too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 OCR seems to have a thing against meandering ambience, which imo is a tad on the pretentious side, but whatever... HoboKa, have you heard my Seiken Densetsu 3 remix? It's nothing but meandering ambience I noticed this thread since I just stopped playing the new Deus Ex [for now!] and I am a huge fan of the first game. Well, I can tell you're quite new, there are a few glaring problems right off the bat. This song is sonically quite vacant, there is almost nothing going on, in a bad way. The "chiptune" bit of it is nothing more than a naked monophonic square wave, missing half the notes of the original synth riff, making it terribly uninteresting. If you want to make it sound like famicom, you are literally only using 1/5 of the potential polyphony of that particular sound chip. Also, when the drums come in, a listener will suddenly notice that both the drums and the square lead have no timing or synchronization whatsoever, they are not on beat with each other. The choir pad is just... there... and All 3 things you are using do not mesh well, and while they can, with a LOT of work, there is simply not enough going on to make this song worth listening to. You almost add something interesting around the 2 minute mark with the new harmonies, but then you kill it with a jarring reintroduction of the dreadful dubstep wobble. Even with only 3 other things going on [drums, square, choir] I probably would've preferred you leave that thing out. Some people like dubstep though, so that part is kind of subjective to me, I just don't feel like everything all of a sudden needs wobble bass, and it DEFINITELY doesn't just automatically make everything sound better. You mentioned polishing this up for OCR, but you have a lot of basics to cover before even coming close. It sounds a lot like the music I was making right as I started out, so you're probably still in the "wow cool I am making music" phase, but take people's feedback and improve on your next works, and keep making stuff, and eventually you'll make music people can enjoy. Some ideas for you to improve would be to first understand tempo and timing, the offbeat drums were, sadly, comical to me. Second, don't be afraid to add more instruments, eventually you'll learn a kind of "comfort zone" in regards to how you set up your ensembles but right now it's REALLY bare. Third, listen to some popular dubstep and chiptunes and analyze why they are good and why you like them. Your transitions were terrible, and you could learn a thing or two from the pros about where to drop the bass and the beats, and how to properly build up a new section of the song. Also, listen to the UNATCO source material, and ask yourself - did I improve upon the original at all? This is probably more information than you needed, but your song made me feel like I had to say something, and I haven't given feedback in this forum in a LONG time. Hopefully you learn something from my criticisms. Also, the other people in this thread are for some reason giving you undue praise. I dunno if we all heard the same song or what, but using words like "awesome" or all those kiddie words disgusts me, what you need is real improvement and the honest truth, not this fakey vague language. If anything, you should be praised for at least putting this out there for feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted August 30, 2011 Author Share Posted August 30, 2011 Thanks for the input! pH: I see what you mean about the meandering of it, and I think I can reign it in (solidify the wubs and bass drum) but could you elaborate on what you mean by the soundscape being thin? I'm curious what exactly you mean. HoboKa: There really isn't much of a "Lead" to go off of with this song... I've posted the source in the first post. There isn't really a melody at all, which makes it quite difficult. Also, if you (or anyone else) could direct me to some good, free drums samples, I'd be eternally grateful OverCoat: I didn't see your post before XP But, man, you don't pull any punches, do you? I seriously don't have any idea how to respond. From what you're saying, I might as well scrap it and not bother :/ Part of it is, a lot of the dubstep that I've heard, never has more than 3-4 instruments at once. For example, listening to Bassnectar's "Bass Head", it only has two instruments (from what I can hear) most of the time: bass and drum. And when you put too many instruments in there at once, it gets muddy. But, I am relatively new at this, so I don't know. But, heck, you ain't gonna get better unless you try, right? AND FOR THE RECORD: I only cut off two notes of the melody, and I thought they were echoes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phonetic Hero Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Haha, speaking of pretentious... well, I suppose it WAS good advice, albeit from a pedestal, or high horse, or other tall object. I apparently need a disclaimer on my vocabulary as well. ANYWAY, if OverCoat didn't elaborate enough, I just meant that there's not much going on, there's really only the drums, chip, and bass. Try adding new parts to make things more chordal and giving your piece a more musical progression (counter melodies, block chords, more pads, etc.) and adding layers to the sounds that are already there, experimenting with different octaves and intervals to make the harmonies more apparent. Timing-wise, I'd just go ahead and switch bass drum samples, drums are too easy to change to spend time tweaking them. I'm not a huge dubstep fan either, but the wobble bass can use a more solid pattern rather than random speed changes (and possibly pitch changes too). There's my explication. I hope my "kiddie" word choice didn't offend anyone this time around pH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 OCR seems to have a thing against meandering ambience, which imo is a tad on the pretentious side, but whatever... I wouldn't call this "meandering," but you might: http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01887/ One would think you'd be against "meandering" anything, by definition. That said, I wouldn't be speculating like that on what you think we want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 I wouldn't call this "meandering," but you might: http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01887/One would think you'd be against "meandering" anything, by definition. That said, I wouldn't be speculating like that on what you think we want. Okay so I was on the tad bitter side, but you're not a saint either Also, maybe you should stop patronizing me like I'm some wet-behind-the-ears newby. I've gotten pretty close to being posted here too, so I think I have a pretty similar vision to you as to what OCR music ought to sound like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 HoboKa, have you heard my Seiken Densetsu 3 remix? It's nothing but meandering ambience Mine was pretty meandery/directionless too...we all know how that went on the panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Thanks for the input!pH: I see what you mean about the meandering of it, and I think I can reign it in (solidify the wubs and bass drum) but could you elaborate on what you mean by the soundscape being thin? I'm curious what exactly you mean. HoboKa: There really isn't much of a "Lead" to go off of with this song... I've posted the source in the first post. There isn't really a melody at all, which makes it quite difficult. Also, if you (or anyone else) could direct me to some good, free drums samples, I'd be eternally grateful OverCoat: I didn't see your post before XP But, man, you don't pull any punches, do you? I seriously don't have any idea how to respond. From what you're saying, I might as well scrap it and not bother :/ Part of it is, a lot of the dubstep that I've heard, never has more than 3-4 instruments at once. For example, listening to Bassnectar's "Bass Head", it only has two instruments (from what I can hear) most of the time: bass and drum. And when you put too many instruments in there at once, it gets muddy. But, I am relatively new at this, so I don't know. But, heck, you ain't gonna get better unless you try, right? AND FOR THE RECORD: I only cut off two notes of the melody, and I thought they were echoes. Sorry about the 3rd post in a row - the other 2 can be deleted by a mod if need be. Anyways, I actually like this remix, despite the few gripes I had earlier. If you need some decent *free* drum samples, Koreplayer is a good start. I have some good soundfont packs that I could give to you too if you're dying for new samples. Just send a pm. Good luck and keep on trying =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphist Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 OverCoat: I didn't see your post before XP But, man, you don't pull any punches, do you? If you are indeed just starting out I'd highly cherish OverCoat's advice. It's kind of hard to get an OG to come in and comment on your WIP, and his harshness is a good thing to get NOW instead of on the panel. I will add my 2 cents by saying that the theme you chose to remix isn't a very good one if your starting out, since it lacks a solid melody. It's perfectly fine to scrap it if you can't get it to go anywhere, or better yet - do what you want with it but don't make it "for OCR", then move one to something better suited to OCR for an actual submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 If you are indeed just starting out I'd highly cherish OverCoat's advice. It's kind of hard to get an OG to come in and comment on your WIP, and his harshness is a good thing to get NOW instead of on the panel.I will add my 2 cents by saying that the theme you chose to remix isn't a very good one if your starting out, since it lacks a solid melody. It's perfectly fine to scrap it if you can't get it to go anywhere, or better yet - do what you want with it but don't make it "for OCR", then move one to something better suited to OCR for an actual submission. It wasn't really a "choose"... I made it for a compo, and was curious if anyone thought that I might have a chance to be posted with it, since I like it quite a bit... perhapz not XP I've got some others on the horizon, so that's good. It is a horrid song to remix, because it gives you all of two motifs to utilize in a remix (remember kids, using important sounding musical terms makes you sound like you actually know what you're doing ) You guys could also check out the rest of my soundcloud, its got some more recent stuff on there (which isn't that great, a remix of Sonic 3 and Link To The Past), which spam voice samples, something that I'm wont to do. I am quite honored at a longtime musician commenting on my little mix, but I'm torn between accepting it as good advice (which it is) and dismissing it as hate mail (for lack of a better term). While I'm very, very honored, OC's whole post gives off a feeling, less of harsh reality, but more of "silly noobs thinking they can make music". I'm sure that's not what you intended to say (right...?) but it did have that quality about it. Besides, how are you going to get better if you don't make a bunch of crap first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphist Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I am quite honored at a longtime musician commenting on my little mix, but I'm torn between accepting it as good advice (which it is) and dismissing it as hate mail (for lack of a better term). While I'm very, very honored, OC's whole post gives off a feeling, less of harsh reality, but more of "silly noobs thinking they can make music". I'm sure that's not what you intended to say (right...?) but it did have that quality about it.Besides, how are you going to get better if you don't make a bunch of crap first? Haha, that entire paragraph summed up how I felt after my first couple of submissions (which crashed and burned). I can almost guarantee that's how they'll come off on the panel. The number one thing is to NOT take it personal, they really are trying to help, but they go through a LOT of music and a certain tact is lost in that process I think you got the right attitude though - Just keep making music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 OC's whole post gives off a feeling, less of harsh reality, but more of "silly noobs thinking they can make music". I'm sure that's not what you intended to say (right...?) but it did have that quality about it. Yeah, didn't mean to come off as condescending or anything, the thoughts I had when giving you feedback was more like I want to help this guy improve - and I'm super relieved you're considering my advice and not just dismissing it completely as a hate mail - which it totally isn't! You're gonna get a lot of shit from peers about your music, I still remember people telling me they'd rather "stick their head in a meat grinder" rather than listen again to the song I just made. Anyway, understand that my criticisms were purely from a standpoint of trying to help you, rather than crush your dreams Also, what's this about UNATCO lacking a melody? It's got one of the most memorable melodies of any PC game ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphist Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Also, what's this about UNATCO lacking a melody? It's got one of the most memorable melodies of any PC game ever! I'd sooner stick my head in a meat grinder before I called that a melody I think what I meant was it doesn't have a lead. I honestly don't even know the proper definition of melody, let alone any other musical term for that matter :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 the thoughts I had when giving you feedback was more like I want to help this guy improve Well kudos to you OverCoat, for clarifying yourself there... Alas, that doesn't feel like the intent of a lot of other posted remixers and "experts" here: hell, I've had people tell me to quit remixing and that I would never get better. Being blunt is one thing, but saying that you suck, or are a newb(which thankfully didn't happen here), only serves to hurt the remixer and create resentment for the person critiquing his or her work; I believe that this is an issue that needs to be adressed in the OCR community - for there is nothing in OCR's mandate that says: "we promote narcissism and bigotry". I hope that Zero, and all the other aspiring remixers get a much more positive experience here than I did. Good luck dude (and sorry if I came off as a little overbearing =p) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverCoat Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I've had people tell me to quit remixing and that I would never get better Those people are bad and should feel bad?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Those people are bad and should feel bad?! Let's put it this way: how are they good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphist Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Let me first say that we should probably give this man his thread back! Apologies to Zerothemaster if we hijacked your thread (though the discussion is probably worth hearing). Lastly, I'd like to honestly say that I'd rather see people get shat on in the WIP forums than see these happy-go-lucky back-patting posts. You see quite a bit of that here, and I think it's mostly because new people frequent the WIP forums much more than veterans, so they're really just supporting each other rather than giving valid advice. It really doesn't help when people leave it at "Great start! Keep up the good work, can't wait to hear more!" Even if my mix was good I don't want to hear that, there's always something to be said about the mix, even if it's subjective. Ideally the feedback has both support AND criticism, but I'd take the criticism over the support any day, that's the whole point of the forum. /2cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted August 31, 2011 Author Share Posted August 31, 2011 Well, thanks for all the... interesting...discussion... XP yup. I might try and fix it some and see if I can get it to a little above "meh" on the scales this afternoon. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboKa Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Let me first say that we should probably give this man his thread back! Apologies to Zerothemaster if we hijacked your thread (though the discussion is probably worth hearing).Lastly, I'd like to honestly say that I'd rather see people get shat on in the WIP forums than see these happy-go-lucky back-patting posts. You see quite a bit of that here, and I think it's mostly because new people frequent the WIP forums much more than veterans, so they're really just supporting each other rather than giving valid advice. It really doesn't help when people leave it at "Great start! Keep up the good work, can't wait to hear more!" Even if my mix was good I don't want to hear that, there's always something to be said about the mix, even if it's subjective. Ideally the feedback has both support AND criticism, but I'd take the criticism over the support any day, that's the whole point of the forum. /2cents Well I guess not everyone is made equal, but still there is a huge difference if you critique someone honestly...without adding in remarks like: "I'd rather put my head in a meat grinder", "sounds newby", "is sonically retarded"...etc. And yeah, time to give him back his thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted September 1, 2011 Author Share Posted September 1, 2011 Let me first say that we should probably give this man his thread back! Apologies to Zerothemaster if we hijacked your thread (though the discussion is probably worth hearing).Lastly, I'd like to honestly say that I'd rather see people get shat on in the WIP forums than see these happy-go-lucky back-patting posts. You see quite a bit of that here, and I think it's mostly because new people frequent the WIP forums much more than veterans, so they're really just supporting each other rather than giving valid advice. It really doesn't help when people leave it at "Great start! Keep up the good work, can't wait to hear more!" Even if my mix was good I don't want to hear that, there's always something to be said about the mix, even if it's subjective. Ideally the feedback has both support AND criticism, but I'd take the criticism over the support any day, that's the whole point of the forum. /2cents I'll admit, even though I come here for actual advice (and I sure got it here lolz), I don't think it's a bad thing for people to simply give a noob a pat on the back. Because even constructive criticism is still criticism, and it hurts just a little bit to have your baby poked and smacked around. That's where the guys who don't have any "real" assistance musically but just stop by to say "hey, this isn't so bad! Keep it up!" come in handy because they give you enough of an ego boost to say "okay, I'm not completely gone for the dogs, I can get through this! Now, lets start editing..." And then we noobs feel like we can try again and get better. So I don't think one should discourage it: I don't know if I would have continued with this song (even if I should) if it hadn't been for HoboKa's encouragement (and everyone else's too... metaphist and OC, of course) I don't know what I would have done. IN CONCLUSION thanks everyone for your input, I hope to improve it. I'm going to overhaul it MAJORLY sometime soon... change the drums samples, instruments, wobbles... everybloodything. except the 8bit part. I love the 8bit part. X3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'll admit, even though I come here for actual advice (and I sure got it here lolz), I don't think it's a bad thing for people to simply give a noob a pat on the back. Because even constructive criticism is still criticism, and it hurts just a little bit to have your baby poked and smacked around. That's where the guys who don't have any "real" assistance musically but just stop by to say "hey, this isn't so bad! Keep it up!" come in handy because they give you enough of an ego boost to say "okay, I'm not completely gone for the dogs, I can get through this! Now, lets start editing..." And then we noobs feel like we can try again and get better. So I don't think one should discourage it: I don't know if I would have continued with this song (even if I should) if it hadn't been for HoboKa's encouragement (and everyone else's too... metaphist and OC, of course) I don't know what I would have done. Well said. I'm not normally one to just say good job without constructive crit, but this track was one of my few exceptions (I liked it in the compo enough to give it a vote ). I would give you some crit now, but it would be no different than what's already been said, so I'll just say again that the off-kilter choir with the chiptune stuff was very neat (it reminded me of IJI's Sector-Z music). It hit the right chords for me, for some reason, lol. IN CONCLUSION thanks everyone for your input, I hope to improve it. I'm going to overhaul it MAJORLY sometime soon... change the drums samples, instruments, wobbles... everybloodything. except the 8bit part. I love the 8bit part. X3 Keep the 8-bit part... but please move the texture that pervades the track to the right place. I think the original MIDI was wrong, so if you followed that then it'd be off, as well. Listen to the source and make the mooooooove. (I know I said I wouldn't give the constructive crit, but... I can't help iiiiiiit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphist Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'll admit, even though I come here for actual advice (and I sure got it here lolz), I don't think it's a bad thing for people to simply give a noob a pat on the back... I definitely understand that, having been there (hell, I'm still there lol). Also, I kind of envy the popularity of your thread...bastard Definitely looking forward to whatever you decide to do next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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