Chimpazilla Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hi all! I'm working on a piano tune (remix). The original is in 3/4 but I've adapted it to 4/4 with a jazzy "8th note shuffle" swing beat. It's sounding quite good! My plan was to modulate the key upward toward the end, up from D to E, and I've started the process but got stuck on the turnaround. So I googled it and found this website where the guy goes on and on about how tired and cliche key mods are. Before I move forward with doing this key mod, I want to get your opinions on it. Is it tired and cliche? The song is very groovy with an old-fashioned feel... so maybe it works? I think it will sound fine, but I don't want any listener (or maybe, judge) to GROAN when they hear the key change! Opinions, please. And... if I do move forward with it, maybe you guys can help me with the turnaround chords! Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dissidia Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 tl;dr the website. If it sounds good.. you know the rest ; ). Feedback will tell I guess. But it if it doesn't sound cliche to you then I think you should go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozovian Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Yeah, if it sounds good, it's good. ppl will groan at so many different things, changing key is far from the worst you can do to a track, just look at how many comments any vocal track on ocr gets, and how many of those are ppl complaining that there's vocals in a video game remix. Anyway, while the key change may be used a lot in certain types of songs, it's not without a reason: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpazilla Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 OK Rozo, I am laughing so hard tears are streaming down my face... that is the best video I've ever seen bar none!!! Thanks, I needed that! *wipes tears away* I'm officially (sorry, more cliche here) ROTFLMFAO!!! Gonna play around with my key change. Wish me luck with my turnaround chords (not even sure how to ask for help with this)... hopefully I'll have something for the wip forum soon. THANKS!!! edit: Darned near forgot to say congrats on your latest posting. "Spume" is really very good! Downloaded it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calum Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Gonna play around with my key change. Wish me luck with my turnaround chords (not even sure how to ask for help with this)... hopefully I'll have something for the wip forum soon. I'm offer a few standard strategies for changing key. The first and most common way is by using a secondary dominant - meaning, the dominant of the key you're about to change to. So if you're in D and going to E, the dominant of E major is B major so that's the secondary dominant you'd use from D. It sounds pretty cheesy if you're going "blah blah blah the song in D and then stick in a Bmajor chord (it would usually be Bminor in the key of D major) and then go on to play it in E major. The way you make your way you Bmajor can be what stops it from become cliche'd and expected. You could also use a neapolitan chord which is basically the chord a semitone above the one you're trying to get to. So you would stick in an Fmajor to go to the Emajor. What makes it neapolitan (probably...) is that it is in first inversion meaning that the third (of Fmajor, being the note A natural - but i also think it works if you use the fifth in the bass as well) is played in the bass. One way to go from D to E via a neapolitan IS through this progression: D, A, F/A (neapolitan), E. Or using the 5th as the bassnote - D, A/C#, F/C, E! Other things you can do are just immediately jump into the next key with no preparation - sometimes it works! A way you can soften the blow to this is, if you have a verse/chorus/bridge type structure, change key in the bridge or a less important or obvious section so that people don't necessarily notice but when the chorus comes in it has impact but is not an obvious change because you're already in the new key. Another way is to have a diminished chord which starts on the note a semi-tone below the one you're reaching for. So for modulating to E you would the chord would contain the notes D#, F#, A and C. You can change the bottom note as you wish as it creates different feelings for the modulation. Ways to get to that chord could be straight from D into that chord then to E (although that's a little cheesy) or from A as well. I'll end with a final way to get to the secondary dominant (mentioned before) which is to have another dominant chord one semi-tone above it falling to the secondary dominant which kinda softens the blow of just throwing in the secondary dominant. If you're going to E major the dominant is Bmajor7 so Cmajor7 is one semi-tone above that. SO, in D major the progression could be - D, A/C#, C7, B7, E. I didn't know how to pitch this music theory-wise so let me know if 1). you want clarification on any terms or 2). if i'm being patronising! I've probably made a bunch of mistakes in the process of writing this so feel free to correct me anyone as well. Hopefully this gives you some options to play around with but really there's no strict rules but the most common strategy is via the dominant of the key you're trying to move to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiesty Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 yah, as Calum said Secondary dominants are good. Also, Pivot chords are pretty common, so just compare the two key areas: D: Dmaj Emin F#min G Maj A Maj Bmin C#dim Dmaj E: Emaj F#min G#min A Maj B Maj C#min D#dim Emaj Common chords: A Major (IV or V) So this is a chord you can pivot on an example of a modulation passage would be D: I ii iv V/V V A: I (V/IV) IV ii V I Or something like that Edit: the formating didnt quite work, I in A should allign underneath V/V in D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 If it feels cliche, try an alternative that feels less cliche. Key modulation on its own is not boring, using a method over nad over to achieve an effect is. Avoid the generic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PROTO·DOME Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Yes, always a good idea. Ignore everyone else in this thread, cliché is always good. They love it really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillRock Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Its got to be good to be cliche. Sure, its used alot, but so is anything these days. You might as well say piano pieces are cliche. If you're feeling it, then do it. If you are worried people are going to say its cliche, you can always expand on the idea and make it your own, rather than carbon copying an idea thats already been done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpazilla Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Thanks for all these great replies and very specific advice, everyone! I've been reading up on this... going to try many of these ideas over the next few days, then flesh out the section that will follow it. I confess I'm new to music theory so I'm having to get up to speed on this as quickly as possible (which is never quickly enough for me, haha!). But I feel like the key mod is going to work and not be cliche (or, at least be "good" cliche!). You guys can help me decide if it's working when I post my wip. Thanks again, really, so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrett Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That article really rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as snobbish. It's also based on a shaky premise. There are so many things you could say are cliche in pop, but at the end of the day it isn't really relevant to what you want to do. If it feels right, do it. Fuck what other people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 That article really rubbed me the wrong way. It came across as snobbish. It's also based on a shaky premise. There are so many things you could say are cliche in pop, but at the end of the day it isn't really relevant to what you want to do. If it feels right, do it. Fuck what other people think. Pretty much what everyone has been saying If you want to do it, then do it. I personally fucking LOVE modulations and use them when it feels right. You can try to mix it up too, with a double modulation fakeout like I used at the end of this track: http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01997/ Results may vary, but anyone who tells you they are cliche is right. Anyone who tells you not to use them ever is a dick and is also wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darangen Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I usually go with the "If you want to and it sounds good, do it" approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpazilla Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 anyone who tells you they are cliche is right. Anyone who tells you not to use them ever is a dick and is also wrong. Well alrighty, then! That completely settles the issue for me! I'm going ahead with the mod. I've got the new key section mostly written, still struggling somewhat with the turnaround, wanna make that kinda dramatic (4-5 chords)... but it'll get there. (currently sidetracked finishing up a resub) OA thanks for linking that great song. I do love the double mod fakeout at the end, very nicely done! Subtle, yet very exciting. *considers using technique in own song* edit: Darangen, just gotta say, every time I see that KSC signature of yours I crack up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darangen Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 edit: Darangen, just gotta say, every time I see that KSC signature of yours I crack up! djpretzel made it, I just stole it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpazilla Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 The ultimate Key Mod song. Anyone care to count them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tesselode Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I think you should make you should make a song where the chord progression doesn't return to the original key. That way the key constantly drifts up or down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermanubis Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I think modulation's a great tool, but I'd personally only use it when I want an explosive resolution. I like to use it when I want to hold out a melodic line for a little longer without having to worry about the tonic gravity of staying in the original key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Key modulation = cliche? That's ridiculous. Key modulation is an essential musical resource since the days of baroque music. It's up to the composer whether to use it or not, but it's definitely not cliche. If you want to modulate from D to E (assuming you're talking minor), you could do many things. One could be Asus4 - A7 - Bsus4 - B7 and use B7 as the dominant of the new key. Or you could also do Gm - F - Eb - Dsus4 - Dsus4/C - B7, and again, use B7 as the dominant, etc.. Try and see what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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