Sonic - Pyroclastic Tides (Lava Reef & Tidal Tempest) feat. C7

[SuperiorX]

Hey everybody, this was my second song from the Sonic Zone Remix Competition. It is a remix of

(mainly

) from Sonic & Knuckles and Tidal Tempest JP from Sonic CD. It features C7 on the trumpet solo!

I think this is pretty groovin' as is, and Phonetic Hero & Sir Jordanius want me to sub it. Anyone want to offer up some critical feedback? I marked it as mod-review because I feel it's ready for it and I do intend to sub. Any and all feedback is much appreciated! Thanks!

*UPDATE* 6/22/12:

Pyroclastic Tides Revised

-----------------------------------------------------------------

06/07/12:

SuperiorX feat. C7 - Pyroclastic Tides (Lava Reef & Tidal Tempest)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Revised Source Usage Breakdown:

0:00 - 0:09 = Some intro shenanigans

0:10 - 0:19 = More intro shenanigans with an original arpeggio synth melody

0:20 - 0:28 = Same arpeggio synth with Tidal Tempest opening

0:29 - 1:15 = Tidal Tempest A section (bass, piano, glass bells) with arpeggio synth alternating between original pattern and

melody.

1:16 - 1:33 =

piano, apreggio synth pattern with Tidal Tempest bass

1:34 - 1:43 = Bass exposed, built around

1:44 - 1:53 = Synth lead from

. Piano and bass are a swung hybrid of LR Act 2 B piano and Tidal Tempest bass.

1:53 - 2:02 = Reverts back to Tidal Tempest B section, minus the lead. Right-hand piano embellishments.

2:03 - 2:11 = Same Tidal Tempest B section, adding synth lead (with Spring Yard cameo on piano/bass)

2:12 - 2:49 = Tidal Tempest C section (bass, piano, pads) with trumpet solo hybrid of

and Tidal Tempest C melody (on the second run-through) combined with some original embellishments.

2:50 - 3:18 = Revert to Tidal Tempest A section (bass, piano, pads) with synth lead playing

3:19 - 3:36 = Outro

[Pl511]

I love this! One thing to say is that the short high notes are sometimes a little too harsh on the ears and disrupt a little bit of the volume levels of the mix. This is really awesome, though! You might also want to even out a few other areas in terms of volume (although that might just be a personal gripe).

[Delicious Heart Lyrics]

Well, I listened your track and it's pretty awesome. I think there's nothing to say, this track is perfect and I'm impatient to see this one on ocremix.

Change the subject: I don't have any skills in remixing but could you be interested for some remixes about Sonic Riders series, no matter the tracks...

[Jamphibious]

One thing I think you could look at is the piano at 1:48 (and throughout, though it is more at the forefront for a bit there). The notes and timing all sound wonderful, but it just sounds a bit dry. It could use a small touch of reverb or even a slight delay maybe, just to give it a bit more colour. Maybe tweak the velocities just a tad to make it a bit more human as well. The chords throughout are pretty nice though, its mostly that small arppegio part.

Also the lead at 1:14 + 1:52, its just a bit shrill at times, perhaps it could be EQ'd a tad.

Dig the bass and beat, love the various little elements that you've added throughout. The glass sounding things are a real nice touch. Spot on trumpet solo from C7 also.

Sick mix overall.

[SuperiorX]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Jordan - the piano was the one part that I myself was thinking needed some touch-up. I'll see what a little extra reverb will do, as well as do some more velocity edits. The lead too is waaaaay better than it originally sounded at that part (just ask Pete), but yeah parts of it do still sound a bit shrill. Thanks for the comments!

Anyone else have some feedback? It's much appreciated!

Change the subject: I don't have any skills in remixing but could you be interested for some remixes about Sonic Riders series, no matter the tracks...

I'm glad you like it so much! As for Sonic Riders... not sure I'll be remixing that anytime soon... never played the game, so I'm not familiar with the sources. Maybe I'll check it out though.

[Gario]

MOD REVIEW:

Sounds like Amphibious has it down, there - shrill lead and dry piano that's mixed a little too close to the front, there. Follow his advice - it's some good advice, there .

1:34 - 2:30 tends to drone on, a bit. I hear the variations on it, and they all improve the sound (the spring yard zone ditto in the middle there was quite cool, in particular), but it still sounds like you're trying to add small variations to a larger repeating part, and it gets old after a little while. As a rule of thumb, keeping patterns in powers of two is a safe bet - otherwise it either sounds just a little too long or a little too short. In this case, you have what is essentially the same part with variations repeat six times, which makes the part sound too long. I'd remove two repetitions in there and work the variations within that frame.

That trumpet is mighty sexy. Loved it.

Those are my big gripes on this one - fix up the issues that Amphibious brought up and trim some of the middle down and I think you'll have it down. It's a great track, overall - quite a step up from the Dive Man track, if I do say so myself (then again, you've done plenty since then, so why am I still stuck on that? ).

[timaeus222]

Sounding very nice so far! Here are some things:

I agree about 1:34 - 2:30. Maybe add some upper mid sounds at 1:34 - 1:42. Tone down the resonance/treble in the lead at 1:42 - 1:48. Add vibrato on the lead, perhaps?

I'm hearing some sort of a dissonance at 1:42. It might be a major second in the bass?

1:48 - Yeah, definitely add some mild delay on it and a good amount of reverb on it. It also sounds a bit hard, so try playing with the velocities a bit.

Starting at about 1:55, you could put a bit more variation on the piano arpeggio. The same old pattern gets a bit stale. Maybe add a few grace notes?

The last thing is that maybe on the parts where the piano plays chords (i.e. 2:02), you could replace it with a rhodes or something softer. It would seem to work better there.

Good luck!

[SuperiorX]

1:34 - 2:30 tends to drone on, a bit. I hear the variations on it, and they all improve the sound (the spring yard zone ditto in the middle there was quite cool, in particular), but it still sounds like you're trying to add small variations to a larger repeating part, and it gets old after a little while. As a rule of thumb, keeping patterns in powers of two is a safe bet - otherwise it either sounds just a little too long or a little too short. In this case, you have what is essentially the same part with variations repeat six times, which makes the part sound too long. I'd remove two repetitions in there and work the variations within that frame.

Really? You think the 1:34-2:30 section is too repetitive? I was actually thinking that part brought some diversity to the song (both structurally and instrumentation-wise) with an increased focus on the Lave Reef Act 2 theme, in what is otherwise a Tidal Tempest heavy arrangement. There are definitely some distinct arrangement sections there and not just repeating patterns. I should have included a source breakdown originally (my apologies), but I'll include one now. I amended the first post with source use for the whole song, but here is just that section (with time-marked links):

1:34 - 1:43 = Bass built around

1:44 - 2:02 = Synth lead from

. Piano and bass are a swung hybrid of LR Act 2 B piano and Tidal Tempest bass.

2:03 - 2:11 = Reverts back to Tidal Tempest B section, minus the lead.

2:12 - 2:20 = Same Tidal Tempest B section, adding synth lead (with Spring Yard cameo on piano with other embellishments)

2:21 - 2:29 = Continuation of Tidal Tempest B section, with further piano embellishments leading up to Tidal Tempest C section.

So there are definitely distinct sections within that area, but I can see where it might sound repetitive. After the exposed bass, it sticks to a similar pattern from 1:44 - 2:30, but the piano & percussion kept things fresh in my opinion. Not to mention the synth lead playing the LR Act 2 melody and then the TT B melody. I could try ditching the exposed piano bit at 2:03 - 2:11 and going straight into the 2:12 section, or try a more liberal single hand piano solo part at 2:03, so when the TT chords kick back in at 2:12 it creates a more drastic sounding difference?

Greg if you're reading this, would you mind giving that section another listen given the source breakdown now? If it sounds repetitive, then it sounds repetitive, but I actually thought that section was one of the stronger parts, so I just want to make sure I'm making good improvements. I'll play around with a few things after I make the other adjustments. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

[C7]

I can kind of see where the issue is coming in with that mid section sounding too long. It sounds great, but at 2:20 you have a big interruption moment--and we're led to expect something new there. It instead takes us back a few notches and THEN goes to the trumpet solo. Those few measures between 2:20 and the solo are the culprit, I believe. The continuation and build prior to that is fine, but it feels like a step back without progress in the piece. Those either need varied more or added to to make them feel more significant, I think.

[Pyro Paper Planes]

I love this track. The atmosphere is really interesting. All the quirky frequencies littered throughout the track just give it an original flair, and works well with the source material. Only criticism is the piano sounds a little bare at times.

Just a random idea, but a little bit of a high-pass filter on the piano up to 1:15 might work really well. Otherwise, Amphibious pretty much summed up my suggestions.

Great work though. I can totally see this being accepted by OverClocked ReMix right now, especially if you were to fix those minor issues (if you wish to call them that).

[Damashii!!]

i like the piano sound throughout, but i can see what some mean by it kind of being dry. i think the main piano part that could use modification (maybe slight tube warmth, more mid eq, more velocity variation, etc.) is the main piano lines around 1:56-2:21. pretty much what Amphibious said.

also, when C7 hits that final high note at the end of the pet solo you could try having a break right there. there drums stop already, but you could maybe have the bass and piano just strike a chord there and then have a rev cymbal or a wind rush sound lead it back into the outro riff.

imo, as a heads up, you shouldn't change the piano sound/style at 1:15 at all because it works really well with the rest of the overall soundscape, but as i said above that fancy part later on could totally use some warmth.

man... still gushing over C7's solo. sooooo good. the entire mix is classy, but i like how the solo didn't distract or steal the show but it also didn't come across as an obligatory solo. it came across as well-crafted and slick. huge props again, i look forward to the final version.

[Gario]

Really? You think the 1:34-2:30 section is too repetitive? I was actually thinking that part brought some diversity to the song (both structurally and instrumentation-wise) with an increased focus on the Lave Reef Act 2 theme, in what is otherwise a Tidal Tempest heavy arrangement. There are definitely some distinct arrangement sections there and not just repeating patterns. I should have included a source breakdown originally (my apologies), but I'll include one now. I amended the first post with source use for the whole song, but here is just that section (with time-marked links):

1:34 - 1:43 = Bass built around

1:44 - 2:02 = Synth lead from

. Piano and bass are a swung hybrid of LR Act 2 B piano and Tidal Tempest bass.

2:03 - 2:11 = Reverts back to Tidal Tempest B section, minus the lead.

2:12 - 2:20 = Same Tidal Tempest B section, adding synth lead (with Spring Yard cameo on piano with other embellishments)

2:21 - 2:29 = Continuation of Tidal Tempest B section, with further piano embellishments leading up to Tidal Tempest C section.

Melodically, yes, it's almost all distinctive (except the repeat in 1:44-2:02 - that's nearly a verbatim repeat, there) but structurally it repeats six times. Your harmonic and bass line from 1:34-1:43 repeats in precisely the same manner. Like I said, it sounds like you added some nice flourishes to what is in essence the same thing - melodic and timbrel changes aren't enough if the structure itself feels repetitive.

Also, as I mentioned before there's the power of two rule that you break with that section, too (repeating the bass pattern six times, not two, four or eight times), so it feels asymmetrical. In my opinion, one of the repeats from 1:44 - 2:02 and the 2:21-2:29 section could be removed entirely and create a much smoother effect, overall. I don't think you'd even need to make any transition between parts; just straight up remove those parts and it would make that section sound much better.

My opinion remains pretty close to what it was. You don't have to make any changes, of course, but I feel like it would clean up the middle section considerably, if you did.

[SuperiorX]

Thanks for the clarification Greg, that helps a lot. And thank you everyone else for your feedback as well, it's greatly appreciated!

I think I'll make some of the overall fixes and then play around with a few different arrangement modifications to that 1:34-2:30 section to see what sounds best. I'll probably end up throwing a couple different versions up here depending on what I come up with to see what everyone thinks. Thanks again!

[SuperiorX]

OK guys, I got an update for you:

Pyroclastic Tides Revised

The biggest changes is with the middle section, where I trimmed things up a bit per Gario's suggestion. Based off the original timestamps, I cut out the original 1:44 - 1:53 and the 2:21 - 2:29 section. See the updated source breakdown in the first post. I added some additional right-hand piano embellishment parts at 1:53 - 2:02 (the old 2:12 - 2:20 part) and now the Spring Yard cameo part leads right into the trumpet solo (I think that area flows very well). The trumpet lead in notes also now only take up 1 measure instead of 2. I gotta say, at first I didn't want to cut these parts out, but after I did so (and heard it a few times) I agree that the mid-section flows much better now.

For production, I added some more reverb on the piano throughout the song, but particularly in the mid-section like Amphibious pointed out. I think it has a much warmer sound now and isn't mixed so close to the front in that section, it fits in with everything else a lot better now.

I also adjusted the synth in the 1:14 - 1:52 section, I lowered some of the attack velocities so now it doesn't sound as shrill as it did before.

I also added the break/chord hold, reverse cymbal lead in on the last high note of C7's trumpet solo like Sir Jordanius' suggested below. It's subtle, but a nice touch.

I think that's about it. I think this one is about ready to sub. Anyone else notice any other production flaws I should touch-up before? Thanks so much!!!

[Phonetic Hero]

This is awesome man. That note at 1:10 still might be a tiny bit piercing, but if no one else has said anything, it may just be my headphones. Extra piano zazz is fucking ritzy as hell. I need a top hat and a cane to swing around when that part comes on.

Things feel sort of rushed tempo-wise after the trumpet solo, you may mess with lowering the tempo of the whole thing. That rhythmic synth would be way cool just a *tiny* bit slower. But at the same time, you don't want it to drag, and the rushed feeling may be inevitable after the trumpet solo just as a function of the arrangement. Idk, play with it, and if it's best where it's at, then by all means, don't listen to me

Great piece man, glad you're gonna sub!

[SuperiorX]

Thanks Pete, glad you liked it! The 1:10 note sounds pretty good to me, and yeah I think the ending may feel a bit rushed after the trumpet solo because that rhythmic synth was absent during the solo. It's roughly the same section as the beginning just with a different melody line. I tried slowing it down but it sounds pretty awkward then.

Extra piano zazz is fucking ritzy as hell. I need a top hat and a cane to swing around when that part comes on.

Hahahaha that is the best mental image ever!!!

Anyone else got any feedback?

[SuperiorX]

Alright, I went ahead and subbed this one! Wish me luck!

I got some additional 1-on-1 feedback from a few others, and since I didn't hear anything else here, I figured we were good to go! I do want to share an excerpt from Sir Jordanius' PM to me, as this has to be the best analogy ever:

this track is fucking cheesecake, man. the crust of the rhythmic percussion patterns and bass line groove is right in the pocket, and pads and synths are like that classic layer of creamy cheese that makes people go "gimme some of that, fuck yeeeah cheesecake!" and they savor it slowly, every last bit of it.

and the cherry sauce on top is that sensual trumpet solo and those sprinkled piano licks. not too much, not too little. riiiiiight on the spot.

I love this guy

Thanks again everyone for your feedback and your time!

[DrumJ8]

I occasionally check out the Sonic Zone Remix Competition thread, but I didn't see this thread until now .. It sounds great, good luck!

[Gario]

A little late for me to comment, but it sounds much better, imo. Good luck on the panels!