DaMonz Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Cool, way to completely ignore my point.Also by your logic remixing is a complete waste of time. This. Not everything is based on money. It happens that people do things just for the love of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) A person who wants to create something can create something purely for the joy of creating. You can write music (See freaking OCR), paint, build, and yes, create a videogame, simply because you enjoy doing it and/or want others to enjoy your work. Some people do obviously enjoy making it a living and being compensated for their work, but to say its impossible and that nobody does it for free or makes games with a small/no budget is a complete falsehood. I provided you with a link of a small database with 500+ games that were created with probably little to no budgets, all released completely free. At the very least the first couple pages are great games. Cave Story is still a prime example, and one of the best games I've ever played. Regardless, one "Personal Benefit" of making your game on Ouya is obviously money. Easy money if you are already making Android games, stated plenty of times here by me and others. I'm not even sure where your path of thinking is going. At this point I think you are just trolling. another thing you're all not thinking of is low barrier to entry means lower standard of quality. Okay? Look at Android/iOS. Yes there are countless, countless bad apps. But there are plenty of good ones too. They did well? I think of this as simply an extension of the Android ecosystem anyways. Its not like there is a huge "standard of quality" on even the big platforms, look at the junk that winds up on Wii/PS3/360. EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention this, but since people seem to be skipping over the fact this is an Android based device I'll add this to the mix: If you are an Android developer, you should already be trying to make your games/apps work on different platforms already. There is no one set hardware for Android, so the more options you put in, the more hardware you support, the more your product will be on different types of hardware, and the more it will sell. This includes Screen Resolutions, Devices with or without keyboards, and entire sub divisions of like Phones, Tablets, Google TV, etc etc. Adding Ouya into the mix should not derail the norm for an avid Android dev already trying to push their products on as many devices as possible. Zircon is spot on. The more ways you can sell your product, the more you obviously make. As long as the return is bigger than the investment, it is money in your pocket whether it sells tons more or just a little. Edited August 5, 2012 by Crowbar Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC2151 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Cool, way to completely ignore my point.Also by your logic remixing is a complete waste of time. wait you mean it isn't?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 On a completely different note, . That would immediately make it worth the time and money, making all counterarguments invalid because of the sheer awesomeness that would encompass it. Yeah, it's free... but it'd be so much better on a console that I'd throw 10$ or so at it, if it came out. Someone contact Remar and get him to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) A person who wants to create something can create something purely for the joy of creating. You can write music (See freaking OCR), paint, build, and yes, create a videogame, simply because you enjoy doing it and/or want others to enjoy your work. Some people do obviously enjoy making it a living and being compensated for their work, but to say its impossible and that nobody does it for free or makes games with a small/no budget is a complete falsehood. true. on the other hand all of those people who release freeware do it on pc. nobody who releases freeware does it on a console (i.e. ouya) because while they may make a game for the love, they do NOT PAY to make a game for the love. At this point I think you are just trolling. not even close. Okay? Look at Android/iOS. Yes there are countless, countless bad apps. But there are plenty of good ones too. They did well? I think of this as simply an extension of the Android ecosystem anyways. i do also. because the android ecosystem as you put it exists outside of gaming. people buy android phones all the time because they are good phones, and the good games get noticed, some bad games get played, all that good stuff. but the reason there can be so many bad apps and the 'ecosystem' can still survive is because the android base does not survive off of app sales. Its not like there is a huge "standard of quality" on even the big platforms, look at the junk that winds up on Wii/PS3/360. sure there's tons of shovelware. so imagine that minus barrier to entry. there will be even more. that's not to say that good games don't come out of a sludge of bad games (see several nintendo systems) but people actually have an initial reason to buy that system. ouya still has no incentive or feature that sets it apart from any other system. this still stands, and isn't going to change because it's that way by design. EDIT: I keep forgetting to mention this, but since people seem to be skipping over the fact this is an Android based device I'll add this to the mix: If you are an Android developer, you should already be trying to make your games/apps work on different platforms already. There is no one set hardware for Android, so the more options you put in, the more hardware you support, the more your product will be on different types of hardware, and the more it will sell. This includes Screen Resolutions, Devices with or without keyboards, and entire sub divisions of like Phones, Tablets, Google TV, etc etc. Adding Ouya into the mix should not derail the norm for an avid Android dev already trying to push their products on as many devices as possible. Zircon is spot on. The more ways you can sell your product, the more you obviously make. As long as the return is bigger than the investment, it is money in your pocket whether it sells tons more or just a little. no disagreements there. but the relevance of that fact is pretty low. if ouya exists and people can port their indie games, they probably should. but that in no way validates the system as a worthwhile investment. if anything that makes it more obvious how unnecessary it's existence is. bolded is me Look. If this system succeeds in proving a low budget business model can work, everyone will be happy. Myself included. I'm not happy that this will likely fail, because if it didn't then it would be healthy for the industry as a whole to see smaller chunks of money being thrown around at the same amount of demand, and start driving large developers away from the overblown teams and budgets they currently have. But nothing about this creates a new incentive to revolutionize the market. You can play android games on your tv. Nice. And until this system makes itself a worthwhile competitor which it likely will not out of the gate, system exclusives proving it's worth will go unnoticed. We all know that critically acclaimed games can go completely under appreciated if they don't have the support and marketing they deserve. The biggest excitement I've seen in this thread over actual games is final fantasy 3 and IJI. When ports are your killer app you have problems. This has been true since forever, why should it be different now? Ouya is a brilliant idea for a very small market of people. Be that as it may, a small market of *consumers* (that's important, consumers, not developers) can yell and scream until the cows come home about how good the Ouya can be AND BE RIGHT, and if no one else cares it really just won't matter at all. OCR is the kind of place where people who have been playing games long enough to appreciate the kind of market Ouya is pushing are. But go outside of this place and outside your gamer groups of friends, and weekend warriors and more casual gamers won't look twice. People who play games on their phone aren't going to spend 100 dollars to play similar games on their tv, and existing console owners aren't going to spend 100 dollars to play a similar market of games as Xbox Arcade/PSN. Why would they? A lot of people want to point to the success of the kickstarter as proof that it's a worthy idea, but let's be real. As of right now, a little over 50,000 people have donated 6,700,000 dollars. That's an impressive amount of money. But then you look and you have to realize that the established base of current generation consoles is in the millions and millions. If 50.000 people buy Ouya, that's not a success. Edited August 5, 2012 by The Derrit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) true. on the other hand all of those people who release freeware do it on pc. nobody who releases freeware does it on a console (i.e. ouya) because while they may make a game for the love, they do NOT PAY to make a game for the love. Maybe you are not familiar (even though I've already stated it) with how it costs thousands of dollars to just get a dev kit, and tens of thousands of dollars to get your content onto said consoles? I really dont understand how you could not see this as a problem. Its not that they "DO NOT PAY" its that its impossible for an average bedroom dev to afford. The ONLY affordable console option at this point is XBLIG which MS barely treats their XBLA devs right, let alone XBLIG. People are more than willing to pay to put their products out if its of reasonable cost of entry, as seen from iOS/Android/XBLIG. Free, paid, or in between. Also, there are devs making homebrew for cracked consoles/handhelds. But thats a very underground activity with an extremely narrow audience. It still counters your point that "nobody who releases freeware does it on a console" Probably not relevent but: some of the more wealthier indies, who did manage to come up with the cash, have made releases on XBLA/PSN (Braid, Super Meat Boy, FEZ), and created games they love on a console. No its not freeware, but the focus of the point isn't freeware (you can make money on Ouya), its creating something you wanted to make, and doing it on a low/no budget, on a console, and paying for it. If you've seen Indie Game The Movie, Super Meat Boy developers (two guys in their bedrooms) risked pretty much everything just to get the game THEY wanted to make on a console. It shouldn't be that hard, and these people actually had the insane amount of money it takes. An Ouya dev wouldn't have to go through that. My total point being: You can make a game without a lot of money. You can make a game without charging. You cannot do either of these, let alone both, effectively on a console. Ouya should fix that. If 50.000 people buy Ouya, that's not a success. Why not? That is still a market of 50,000 people to buy a game that didn't exsist before, and has potential to increase in the future. Its also a market of people you know would probably be interested in indie games. not even close. Hard to take someone who says Cave Story, IJI, etc were a waste of time to be created seriously. People who play games on their phone aren't going to spend 100 dollars to play similar games on their tv, and existing console owners aren't going to spend 100 dollars to play a similar market of games as Xbox Arcade/PSN. For "similar games on TV" : Apple TV, Google TV, Roku, and OnLive are products that already exsist and sell fine. This should be better than those devices for gaming. And you'd get MORE than whats on XBL/PSN obviously, XBL/PSN has an extremely high barrier to entry so not everybody can afford to put their games on it. But you know what? Someone looking for a dirt cheap console with tons of cheap and/or free games? I bet they'd pay $100 over paying $200 for $60 a pop games and/or $15 downloads. And any indie fans should buy this simply to support the cause Not Relevent: Google is soon releasing a product (Nexus Q) for $300 thats basically an amp for playing lossy mp3s (as of this moment doesn't support lossless formats like FLAC) on a nice stereo system. It has some video options (movies, youtube, a visualizer for your audio), but doesn't even do many basic Google TV like functions. So "what people will pay for" is subjective Edited August 5, 2012 by Crowbar Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newt Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 serious time You guys only have ~2 days left to cancel your donations for this thing. The smart money is on buying one when they launch. A bunch of marketing executives and a designer or two have fleeced the public out of $7MM with absolutely no liability to deliver. Assuming this thing ever comes out (which is not likely (especially within the given timeframes)), you'll be able to get one from some e-shop for ~$100 anyway. They are not capable of competing in the market at a higher price point (xbox, etc). Your $100 will not materially affect their kickstarter at this point, and it dosen't make any logical sense to hold onto their risk for no benefit. There are some very good reasons that they were not able to secure any funds from venture capitalists, and they're offering you a much worse deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 serious time You guys only have ~2 days left to cancel your donations for this thing. The smart money is on buying one when they launch. A bunch of marketing executives and a designer or two have fleeced the public out of $7MM with absolutely no liability to deliver. Assuming this thing ever comes out (which is not likely (especially within the given timeframes)), you'll be able to get one from some e-shop for ~$100 anyway. They are not capable of competing in the market at a higher price point (xbox, etc). Your $100 will not materially affect their kickstarter at this point, and it dosen't make any logical sense to hold onto their risk for no benefit. There are some very good reasons that they were not able to secure any funds from venture capitalists, and they're offering you a much worse deal. Gonna have to agree - read this article just now: http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/7/16/3162049/ouya-developer-to-look-for-funding-outside-of-kickstarter That statement at the bottom tells me they have no idea about the financial costs and no recognition that they need to fill in that void (or they're trying to hide a failure to market their company to VCs). It's pretty clear that they did not think big enough with regards to the whole business - ask anyone connected to tech startups, and it should raise a red flag to almost every single person involved. I highly suspect this will be shortlived if it comes to market, if not vaporware. Getting substantial funding via VCs or angel investors should be one of the highest priorities - without such funding, especially in a hardware driven business, there just won't be enough capital for develop a product & keep the company comfortably growing beyond the initial offering. I have nothing for or against the idea - such an idea could possibly be successful with a strong enough team, or at least successful enough to be attractive to Google or Apple to enter the foray, which I suspect will happen in the future. The linked article above gives me strong doubts that this is the team that would execute correctly though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newt Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 I have nothing for or against the idea - such an idea could possibly be successful with a strong enough team, or at least successful enough to be attractive to Google or Apple to enter the foray, which I suspect will happen in the future. The linked article above gives me strong doubts that this is the team that would execute correctly though. My biggest problem with the whole thing is that Microsoft could easily kill this by filing a few patent/ip/whatever lawsuits. It would probably be trivial for them to burn through all of Ouya's funds in that matter. They've wasted more on less, so I can't really put it past them. They don't even need to win for Ouya to lose. Oh.. That and their timeline is completely messed up. There is literally no way I see this thing hitting the market in 8 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) I have nothing for or against the idea - such an idea could possibly be successful with a strong enough team, or at least successful enough to be attractive to Google or Apple to enter the foray, which I suspect will happen in the future. The linked article above gives me strong doubts that this is the team that would execute correctly though. You know interestingly enough, Google's Nexus Q was mysteriously delayed during this Ouya deal, and even weirder as an appology they are sending out free 2nd Q's. It kinda made me think maybe they saw the popularity with Ouya and thought about retooling it to support gaming (like having a controller bundled, supporting Ouya, etc). But thats probably just wishful thinking / reading too much into it / completely unrelated. Its only about as powerful as the Galaxy Nexus which I dont think has as much muscle as the Ouya would of had. It would be nice if Google made a Nexus console out of the stuff they have in the Nexus 7 or better Edited August 6, 2012 by Crowbar Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) My total point being: You can make a game without a lot of money. You can make a game without charging. You cannot do either of these, let alone both, effectively on a console. I want Ouya to fix that. Fixed that for you. I really don't think you understand how little work has been done here, or how little information you've been actually given about this system. You've got the press release, for a system that's (in reality) a year or more away from completion, and you're talking in absolutes. It's okay to hope and dream, but don't talk like you know how the system is going to pan out. And sorry about your Cave Story looks like I hit a nerve there. Despite the fact it proves my point because the original cave story got the original developer noticed, and was funded for porting to multiple other systems where it made the developer money. Just like I said was the goal of many freeware developers. Literally the only words you took out of my larger point *which was completely accurate* were 'Cave Story' and 'worthless' and completely phased out the rest of it where I said 'congratulations to him. unless it got him a job that was a complete waste of time. nobody puts hours and hours into making a game for no personal benefit whatsoever.' it DID get him a job. and a lot of money. usually that fits into 'personal benefit' pretty well. and to dshu that's completely off because music exists as more than a product. video games ARE a product, whether they be classified as art or entertainment or whatever. working on remixes as a hobby, and music as a hobby is not a waste of time. by that logic all of the people who play video games here (i.e. everyone) wastes their time all the time. Edited August 6, 2012 by The Derrit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Well, that is kinda just picking at words. But more accurately, I'd want anybody to fix it (and I'm sure I'm not alone). Ouya is the first stepping up to the plate, or at least, claiming to do so. We shall see how this pans out EDIT: I support the idea. I have no idea if this company can pull it off. I have never said anything to that matter. I am simply supporting the concepts, and defending the concepts in general. It could work out, if someone was serious about it. These people could be just scam artists for all I know. But the IDEA is great. Cave Story: The fact his game got popular enough that people took notice does not counter the fact he created the game for free without intention of profit or even getting noticed. Hes a very humble japanese guy who just wanted to make the game. It didn't even get picked up for a commercial release for 5+ years. You are still saying the game is only of value NOW because hes making money, and if he didn't, it was a waste of time. There are plenty of freeware indies that don't get this popular. They are not wastes of time to be created, nor is the original Cave Story. To say they all only made the games to get noticed is pretty shallow. Their "Personal Benefit" is the joy of creation, and the joy of people enjoying their work. And there are plenty of people who make games as a hobby. You don't seem to know much about this subject yet you keep on going on. I've even provided links, yet you continue to ignore. Again I can only think you are trolling at this point. Or at the very least, very unaware of anything but making money and big business. Edited August 6, 2012 by Crowbar Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Creating something out of a love and desire to create is never a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Again I can only think you are trolling at this point. Or at the very least, very unaware of anything but making money and big business. that's what this system is though. idealistically i don't disagree with you. but this is not the golden egg, ouya is for profit like anything else. and that's what i'm talking in terms of. whether or not ouya succeeds is not based on the kindness in people's hearts or goodwill points. it's numbers and logic and money and funding. as great as it is that freeware and small-scale developers still exist today, right now it has no place in BIG BUSINESS, which is the market ouya is trying to break into, even if they are doing it in an 'indie friendly' way. and kyle's on point with that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 How is what Kyle said different from what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 How is what Kyle said different from what I said? It isn't. I'm not sure why Derrit is agreeing with me when he's been trying to make the opposite point for the last four pages or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Well, that is kinda just picking at words. Wait a minute... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Ouya is a brilliant idea for a very small market of people. See, this statement I have no problem with. Saying the market is too small to sustain the console is completely different from saying the market is nonexistent, as it seemed like you were implying earlier. I honestly doubt the Ouya will go anywhere in the mainstream market, but even if the company folds immediately after launch, there will still be Android developers hacking away at it to make sure they get their money's worth. If you browse through Android forums, some of the most obscure devices have custom ROMs. Obviously the key word here is "AFTER" launch... serious time You guys only have ~2 days left to cancel your donations for this thing. The smart money is on buying one when they launch. While I'm not as 100% confident as Newt that this thing will never ever materialize, he is right that there is no significant benefit to pledging $100 right now over just getting it when it comes out. As I mentioned, right now I'm pledging $140 for the Kickstarter-only brown Ouya, but I'm trying to decide if even that's worth the risk. Gonna have to admit I'm kinda leaning towards no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMonz Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 While I'm not as 100% confident as Newt that this thing will never ever materialize, he is right that there is no significant benefit to pledging $100 right now over just getting it when it comes out.As I mentioned, right now I'm pledging $140 for the Kickstarter-only brown Ouya, but I'm trying to decide if even that's worth the risk. Gonna have to admit I'm kinda leaning towards no. I think that everyone that can afford chipping in to help is a small additional chance for them to work something out. I'll keep supporting, because if they succeed I'll get a console anyway, and if they don't well... I'd be sad! I think they need all the support they can get, so I'm not changing my mind. Even if it's not much to them, I think my support might be worth it. ^^ I just hope I'm not alone xD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocre Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) As I keep thinking while skimming Vita threads over on NeoGAF: "At least it'll do better than the N Gage did." Edited August 6, 2012 by ocre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newt Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 As I keep thinking while skimming Vita threads over on NeoGAF: "It can't do any worse than the N Gage... Right?" The Vita is in a much better place than this thing. At least the Vita exists! There are actually a few games I'm looking forward to on Vita; notably Soul Sacrifice and Ragnarok Odyssey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 How is what Kyle said different from what I said? what's different is you were being snarky and a douche, and at that point in time you guys seemed to all think i was talking about *AT ALL, EVER* as opposed to in terms of creating a successful console with successful games. which is, you know, the entire point of arguing over a console's success? i mean really. People's hobbies and pastimes aren't worthless, it'd be stupid to say they are. But a COMPANY, that's trying to make MONEY, doesn't make games for free without having some sort of way of making profit, such as sponsorship or hope of future employment. Not sure how everyone missed that Ouya is kind of based on profit and success, not people's hobbies. All of you who seem to think I'm going back on my words are making no distinction between business practices (what we've all been talking about) and personal practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Yep, I'm the snarky one. this will be the centerpiece of every hipster's living roomgratz to hipsters Keep backpedaling. Edited August 7, 2012 by Dhsu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Derrit Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Yep, I'm the snarky one. Keep backpedaling. lol who's trolling now. at least i try and stay on topic. you should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowbar Man Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) People's hobbies and pastimes aren't worthless, it'd be stupid to say they are Yet this is exactly what you said. But a COMPANY, that's trying to make MONEY, doesn't make games for free without having some sort of way of making profit, such as sponsorship or hope of future employment.All of you who seem to think I'm going back on my words are making no distinction between business practices (what we've all been talking about) and personal practices. Yeah, back pedaling. "oh yeah i was just referring to companies who are trying to money" when the conversation wasn't anything about that and you made no distinction. Not sure how everyone missed that Ouya is kind of based on profit and success, not people's hobbies. I guess you missed part of the main mission statement of getting a cheap way for bedroom programmers and hobbyists to make games on consoles? They even talk about how easy it is to hack, again a hobbyist activity. You don't seem to know ANYTHING about the subject matter. Its an Indie console. Its being very widely advertised as one. Where do you keep seeing "WE ONLY WANT BIG BUSINESS AND TONS OF PROFITS!"? Edited August 8, 2012 by Crowbar Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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