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williamkage

16 Bit Collective (16bc.org) Non-Profit for Education & Collaboration in SNES Music

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Introducing the 16-bit Collective (16bc.org), a non-profit dedicated

to education and collaboration, with free SNES music tools,

tutorials, and lots more!

http://16bc.org

I started this to build a new community for SNES musicians,

and fans alike. Please check out the site, give it a like,

and DIVE IN!

What we HAVE:

- Free tools to write SNES music

- Tutorials on how (coming very soon)

- Showcases of the latest SNES songs

- Several new songs already posted

- Workshops for feedback & demo tracks

- Q & A forums to help you get started

What we NEED:

- Fans (to listen to our new SNES songs)

- Composers (join the forums, post a song)

- Critics (help composers work out the kinks)

- Gurus (help teach others how to SNES)

- Loudmouths (spread the word)

- Enthusiasts (lurk freely, my friends!)

- Anyone else (everyone is welcome!)

The site is in its first public version, so it's not perfect.

Feel free to get a hold of me with bugs or questions.

Let's evolve the 16-bit chiptune community TOGETHER! :D

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If it's only SNES music, you may want to consider changing the name; there were, after all, more than one 16 bit system ;) Just a thought

It's definitely easy to make a taxonomical gripe about this... then again, the ship has already sailed - "8-bit" has become synonymous with "chiptune" when in fact 8-bit microprocessors are quite capable of sample playback.

Bottom line? In the world of VGM & chiptunes as well, "8-bit" is used & abused as a matter of course, and is more like a catch-all to describe a certain aesthetic. Naming a site "16-bit Collective" and having it just be SNES digs the hole deeper still, but... well, there was already a hole to begin with, and no one seemed to care much about getting out of it...

At any rate, good luck on the site!

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For what it's worth, Genny music is welcome.

SNES is just where it starts, because to my knowledge there's not much of a Genesis/TurboGrafx/NeoGeo movement, nor resources with which to faithfully re-create those exact music styles; should these resources (or greater enthusiasm) come about, 16bc is a fine home for it.

It may not be 100% accurate, but as a matter of practicality, SNES is a worthy flagship, and an adequate foundation. Wouldn't you say?

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Also, not to be picky, but what is listed so far isn't creating SNES music. Its music that sounds kind of like SNES. Currently there are no tools on the site at all to make actual SNES music (that will run on an SPC player / SNES/SFC hardware). Its just soundfonts and DAW software

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I thought today's casual musicians were intimidated by trackers. Regardless, I've added two trackers to the site. Thanks for the feedback! Much more content will be added as things start turning.

Just as there are 2A03 purists in the 8-bit realm, there will certainly be a subset of "16-bit" music that is purely S-SMP/SPC700. I don't see any reason why the two can't coexist here. :D

EDIT: As an obvious logical companion, sample sets will make it to the site very soon.

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Hey, all that sounds good to me. I'm a HUGE SNES fanboy, so it wasn't really a huge gripe, just kinda thinking out loud. Gonna echo the "good luck" statement! I may be around, I'm trying to work something up for SNESology at the moment, trying to make this sliver of free compositional time count while I've got it

Also, I've seen a bit of Genesis music around, it's not terribly hard to find. Harder than SNES, but still, you don't have to turn over too many stones.

Turbografx/NeoGeo music would be fun :D

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I'd wager the scene for Genesis chiptunes is larger than that for the SNES equivalent. Only recently with Schnabubula and Snesology has the latter really taken off as a movement. You've probably just not looked in the right places.

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I thought today's casual musicians were intimidated by trackers.

They probably are, honestly. But offering a "Pro" route for those who want to be accurate shouldn't hurt, I don't think!

As far as Genesis goes: VGM Music Maker

For a multi FM/PSG tracker (Genesis, PC-Engine, and tons of 8bit consoles): DefleMask

For NeoGeo: MVSTracker but software is old

All of these are trackers and harder to do than covering each topic with a DAW type software though

Covering all of 16-bit's (4th Generation) spectrum is a slippy slope indeed! Might be easier to focus on SNES after all, but theres definately Tracker and DAW support for FM stuff in both tools and community

Anywho, probably over thinking it as usual. Good luck with the site!

EDIT: Why Hello Gecko! Listen to Gecko, he knows his stuff. Also, Listen to Gecko's stuff.

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I'd wager the scene for Genesis chiptunes is larger than that for the SNES equivalent. Only recently with Schnabubula and Snesology has the latter really taken off as a movement. You've probably just not looked in the right places.

Gecko!!! /gush /swoon /squeal

I love your stuff, heh.

It's believable. I'm by no means an authority on all things chip, but I've been building

my own brand since May 2012 (just before SNESology evolved from an album title to a

full-fledged brand/project); I'd like to think that I've helped the movement along too! ;)

Can you help point me toward larger pools (or louder names) in the Genny/FM realm?

Would be very cool to branch out properly.

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Since I'm being asked about this project a lot I thought I'd post a recap of the recent unfortunate and unexpected events here. My main motivation is to come to a peaceful resolution where Snesology can have its domains back.

In short: It appears that the creator of this 16bit collective project has deliberately attempted to (I can't think of a nicer way to put it) sabotage Shnabubula's Snesology website in order to coincide with the release of this site.

In the interests of good faith and fair play I will at first say that the creators of Snesology welcome any interest or collaborations in original SNES music and similar endeavors, and seeks in no way to compete with or deride any alternate projects such as this one. The reason for this post is because what has occurred is both very real and very consequential to the well-being of the Snesology projects and this budding community.

Here are the events as I understand it.

* William Kage submits a song to Snesology which gets posted.

* It is made known publicly and to him that Snesology is working on launching their website.

* According to the WHOIS dates, roughly a few days later, three domains snesology.org, snesology.net, and snesology.com were purchase by William Kage

* Shortly after, William showed interest in playing an admin/tech role at Snesology, but was turned down as there was no need for additional administration or tech. He does not mention at this time that he already owns the domains.

* A few days later, a purchase for snesology.org was made in an attempt to go live with the site. (This is when I started working on the project) It was then I became aware that the site had been recently purchased. Kage's personal info was on the domain WHOIS so we contacted him about it.

* Kage suggests he would like to handle all the domain-related tasks. After some discussion it was decided that he would turn all three domains over, but maintain control of the domain account itself.

* Because the domain transfer can only be done 60 days after a purchase, this situation set us back on our launch by two months. The date we can finally apply to transfer the domains is roughly right now.

* When I went to finalize the transfer, I noticed the password has been changed and I had no access to the domains anymore. I managed to reset the password and begin the transfer process of one of the domains, but I'm not sure how far along this process is. Basically we have no idea if we will get control of these domains in the end.

* While we wait to find out what will happen, 16 bit collective launches.

Thus I am asserting that Kage has subverted Sam's Snesology project and delayed it (and possibly disabled it) long enough to launch his own. A very troubling, unnecessary, and unprovoked development. As I said before, Snesology welcomes all the interest in the world, wants nothing more than to promote and continue Shnabubula's awesome vision and hard work, and does not feel compelled to compete with or have a rivalry with anyone else. I wish you the best in your new endeavors, but it simply did not have be be done this way.

I want to apologize if this post was a bad idea. I do not plan to respond in this thread or about this topic going forward, but I felt compelled to dispel any rumors, and clear up this confusion, and hopefully get our domains back so we can go live :)

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I do not plan to respond in this thread or about this topic going forward, but I felt compelled to dispel any rumors, and clear up this confusion, and hopefully get our domains back so we can go live :)

This is the big red flag to me in your post - if you want to clear up any confusion, why refuse to post further on it for people like me who would have follow up questions for this?

I myself pose this question without expecting an answer, but if we're all doing the fairness-and-transparency dance, then everyone needs to take a turn.

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I think Ari's just trying to avoid forum-drama and thread-crashing.

William, can you explain your intentions with regard to the Snesology domains? I see no reason why they should belong to anyone other than Shnabubula, or whomever he wants to own them, in this case Ari... Also if you want to dispute or clarify any of Ari's statements, that is your right. Preemptively squatting someone's domains when you know they're planning on going live, and not informing them, does not reflect positively, if that's what happened...

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That's fascinating, because they were given back right away (even before

ICANN time limit, wow!) on 08-13-2012.

The original plan in July was to actually put a mockup of the NPO's

content/vision onto SNESology, and give it to Shna.

I'd been kicking around the idea since 2011, and when SNESology came

about, I didn't want to compete. I wanted to join in, and give everything

I could to the project.

Unfortunately, we had some misunderstandings (much of it was my fault!),

so I immediately cancelled the domains and began turning them over to

Shna/Mono/Pro/Aroe.

The problem is, since this happened, I've sent dozens of emails to them

trying to open up, make amends, do whatever I could to reassure them of

my intent. But I never get a response. It's disappointing.

What's more disappointing is ... um, where and when did you announce

what SNESology will do? I've been trying to figure out WHAT you guys

planned for the site since July, and nobody would tell me.

I even emailed you saying exactly that:

"If you had written back with a plan that sounded just like mine,

I was honestly going to just kill my project. You guys are established

and connected, much better than I am. I would have rather joined yours and

given anything I had to offer. That's the only reason I asked."

(Sent to Shna, Mono, Aroe on July 21, 2012 @ 10:50pm)

The headline is that I'm sabotaging your project, but ...

... isn't it the other way around? :neutral:

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Thanks for the explanation and admission of fault regarding the domain names.

What matters the most is that the domains are back with Ari/Sam, where they should be.

Regarding sabotage, I don't think Ari's post accomplished that, nor do I truly think that any delay regarding the domains caused by your own actions have sabotaged them.

If there's one thing I know a little about, it's that the success of sites like this have very little to do with the INITIAL enthusiasm surrounding them. It's easy to start a website, make a splash, promote like crazy, and get at least a few people on board. That's actually the fun part, but it's not the part that matters as much long term. Persistence, integrity, hard work, and an unrelenting focus not on stats or money but on *concept*... in my opinion those are things that build a successful long-term community-driven website.

VGM is a niche, and just as fan arrangements are a niche within that niche, so too is original composition using SNES or other console soundsets/technology. You can get a good deal of hype based on the concept being fresh to some people - for awhile - but the long-term viability comes from fervent belief, a constant influx of talent and support, and boundary exploration. None of these characteristics will be sabotaged by website release dates or domain names or finger-pointing; they rest solely on the shoulders of site administrators & owners.

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William, I was going over your personal website yesterday and noticed that that the sf2 compilers/sample rippers for the SNES sf2s were not credited; did you plan on crediting them at 16bc?

Peace,

Willow

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Regarding sabotage, I don't think Ari's post accomplished that, nor do I truly think that any delay regarding the domains caused by your own actions have sabotaged them.

I shut everything off for now, because apparently they had planned something similar. I'd rather they do it, honestly (and I've said this many times before). I never wanted to compete, I thought we were very different projects. I actually viewed mine as training wheels, and SNESology as the olympics.

I still haven't seen any public mention of what they plan to do with the SNESology website. Can anyone point me to something on this?

William, I was going over your personal website yesterday and noticed that that the sf2 compilers/sample rippers for the SNES sf2s were not credited; did you plan on crediting them at 16bc?

Yes they are. What're you talking about? O.o

"Soundfont by TSSF"

"Soundfont by SleepyTimeJesse"

They're credited right on the link itself.

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I shut everything off for now, because apparently they had planned something similar. I'd rather they do it, honestly (and I've said this many times before). I never wanted to compete, I thought we were very different projects. I actually viewed mine as training wheels, and SNESology as the olympics.

I still haven't seen any public mention of what they plan to do with the SNESology website. Can anyone point me to something on this?

Maybe you should just wait until they do it? :|

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I still haven't seen any public mention of what they plan to do with the SNESology website. Can anyone point me to something on this?

Zis?

http://snesology.tumblr.com/Our%20Mission

Yes they are. What're you talking about? O.o

"Soundfont by TSSF"

"Soundfont by SleepyTimeJesse"

They're credited right on the link itself.

My apologies. I hadn't clicked on the reference links - on my screen, the page appears to end where the reference links stop, so I assumed that they were direct links. My mistake. The magical revelations of scrolling down.

How pray tell do you plan on "expanding" those sets of yours?

Peace,

Willow

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Just a note to all - regardless of some of the clear missteps & issues being discussed, let's make good faith assumptions that William has, at the very least, put a lot of time & energy into what he's been working on.

Ideally, if there's this much conceptual overlap, it would be one website and not two... I don't know if that can happen now, or even if it should, but there *might* be a way to sort things out to everyone's mutual satisfaction. If bridges are truly burnt, then I guess both parties need to decide whether to proceed in earnest with their individual plans. If William indeed would prefer to cancel his plans based on redundancy with SNESology plans, then whatever information necessary to make that decision easier for him would probably benefit both sides. If that information isn't ready yet, it boils down to a question of patience. Patience is indeed a virtue, but having a rough timeline couldn't hurt if it will dissuade duplicate efforts...

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I've been interested in making some 16-bit original music for some time now, so this site when it's up sounds like something that I'd be very interested in. Hope things work out for you in the end, and I hope things are squared away nicely with Shna, Prot and the others in good time.

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let's make good faith assumptions that William has, at the very least, put a lot of time & energy into what he's been working on.

Time/energy is not as important as integrity.

I made mistakes but never intentionally wronged anyone.

I will keep trying to prove that, but it's difficult when they won't talk to me. :(

Ideally, if there's this much conceptual overlap, it would be one website and not two... I don't know if that can happen now, or even if it should, but there *might* be a way to sort things out to everyone's mutual satisfaction. If bridges are truly burnt, then I guess both parties need to decide whether to proceed in earnest with their individual plans. If William indeed would prefer to cancel his plans based on redundancy with SNESology plans, then whatever information necessary to make that decision easier for him would probably benefit both sides. If that information isn't ready yet, it boils down to a question of patience. Patience is indeed a virtue, but having a rough timeline couldn't hurt if it will dissuade duplicate efforts...

All they need to do is say,

"Yes, we had the same vision."

Doesn't even need to be specific, right? But I'm content to make that assumption,

with the hope that taking 16bc offline (at least for now) gives them what they want.

The hardest part in all this is lack of communication. I even touched on this

(politely!!) in the SNESology thread.

If they want resolution, as they say ... why on earth won't they talk to me?

Ask questions, have a discussion, sort things out. Why can't that happen?

EDIT: Forgot to say, thanks DJP, for being a part of this discussion. I appreciate it.

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My thoughts - I don't see how a site that fosters a community dedicated to 16-bit chiptunes can't coexist with SNESology. Just keep a level head about it though, and make sure your heart is in the right place - it isn't for glory, but just out of a love for it.

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kage, you say you made mistakes, but never intentionally wronged anyone. do you not think that registering all iterations of people's domain names out from under them isnt wronging someone? i personally cannot give this any clemency on good faith because sadly i know too much, so its time for another scathing post about this from me, because i doubt people will say it in this way and walk the line of good taste and still get the point across, which i think should be to not support this clown.

first up, if you had no idea of the plans for snesology, then why did you register their intended domains in the first place (on top of registering any variation thereof), or even have an inkling of an idea to register it? because you wanted to make them a site? no, you wanted to make you a site. this in itself is the biggest beef of the situation because at what point did you decide to register snesology.net .com and whatever else? this should really be enough to get you ostracized from this scene, but even still, you play dumb about it. quite obviously you must be following monobrow or shnabubula on facebook or elsewhere closely enough to register these domains and the 'i didnt know' argument is preposterous. you must expect us to believe that you are clairvoyant or something huh?

the 'i just wanted to build them a site' argument doesnt hold weight either, because you cannot fully admit your guilt. i can only assume that in your mind you dont feel you did anything wrong. i guess by the point that any communication had dropped off toward you (which i doubt is how it went considering the track record about this and what i know that hasnt been said), the word was already out of what you were doing. so you went for the next possible thing you could, which was...16bitcollective? come on.

are you really that devoid of your own essential direction or ideas that you have to jupe people's intended domain names, and then when you get caught up in these lies, then you halfway throw in the towel and copout on your own vision by taking jose and george's idea of a name for a site? what the hell, what was stopping you from just using 16bitpeoples? this is sad that people would give this shitbird the benefit of the doubt. this is all fishy nefarious shit i think.

ultimately, i dont think any of us are really buying any of this and people are being diplomatic here for the sake of not letting things get ugly in this thread.. but in the end, you cannot disprove the claims because there is too much damning evidence here.

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