Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[Lyrai]

I think we have a different understanding of the term then. I don't think sexism implicitly refers to very overt, intentionally malicious actions (the terms usually reserved for that are misandry/misogyny). To me, it literally just means treating someone differently based on their gender.

In a scholarly sense, "prejudice" is thinking about it/believing it internally, while "discrimination" is acting on it/actually doing it overtly.

[Brandon Strader]

You guys probably posted 4 additional pages that are impossible to keep up with since I peeped the thread on my phone while waking up, but... The "Bros before Hos" thing on God of War, because Kratos wails on a woman the game is actually less sexist than other games. If Kratos is an equal opportunity pummeler, then it can hardly be said that the game is giving anyone special treatment. It's refreshing to see a female evil villain get what's coming. Same thing happened in Dante's Infero.

Not to mention, that the female villains in that GoW clip, are quite clearly stronger than Kratos at the time.

GoW clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3L2de3ucLg

But yeah, "Bros before Hos" is a childish title for the achievement. I mean literally, people were saying that when I was like 7. Then again, it's a bit dumb to get up in arms over too. Next people will be complaining because someone said a girl in a game has cooties.

[Cash]

So what's your point?

I thought my point was clear, it's a bad thing that very few people responded to the limited female input. Maybe if more people actually acknowledged when a woman posts, more women would participate in these types of discussions.

[MC Final Sigma]

I thought my point was clear, it's a bad thing that very few people responded to the limited female input. Maybe if more people actually acknowledged when a woman posts, more women would participate in these types of discussions.

I guess we should treat women differently.

Seriously, though, why should we pay more attention to women? I suspect their opinions will vary as much as men's will. And if they do have a monolithic opinion, I guess that means they must agree with Anita Sarkeesian, huh?

Also @Brandon: I don't think that either the achievement name or the fact that it's a woman receiving the violence is what's wrong with that clip (although many people do). Instead, I think the violence has pretty clear sexual undertones: dragging her waist-first toward him, almost mounting her, lifting her up on his shoulder caveman-style, and then penetrating her lower abdomen with a giant phallic spike. So, the violence in GoW is normally fantasy violence, but it's not usually a rape fantasy, which you may agree is crossing a line. The curb stomp didn't particularly bother me, Kratos does much worse to Helios in another game.

[Cash]

I guess we should treat women differently.

Seriously, though, why should we pay more attention to women? I suspect their opinions will vary as much as men's will. And if they do have a monolithic opinion, I guess that means they must agree with Anita Sarkeesian, huh?

You completely misinterpreted my post. You added on ideas that were not present. I did not say all women agree with Anita, nor did I say we should treat women differently. However, I would say a woman's opinion has more weight when discussing the treatment of women in video games. Just as the opinion of a gay man has more weight when discussing gay rights, than a straight man.

[swansdown]

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Edited September 8, 2023 by swansdown

[AngelCityOutlaw]

This thread is still going? I swear I've seen the same points being made over and over again. And still almost no input from women. Why does that always happen in threads relating to sexism, women, and video games? When a women does post, very few people respond. It's a shame.

The thread will keep going and going and going and then it will it die. Then, it shall return again a later date for the rest of human history because people will never be satisfied with the portrayal of their gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever category they can squeeze themselves into.

They will also believe that their personal interests are the same as the larger group, even though there is no way to prove what the entire group actually believes due to cultural differences and a countless number of other variables.

So yeah, this whole argument is perpetual.

[relyanCe]

Also @Brandon: I don't think that either the achievement name or the fact that it's a woman receiving the violence is what's wrong with that clip (although many people do). Instead, I think the violence has pretty clear sexual undertones: dragging her waist-first toward him, almost mounting her, lifting her up on his shoulder caveman-style, and then penetrating her lower abdomen with a giant phallic spike. So, the violence in GoW is normally fantasy violence, but it's not usually a rape fantasy, which you may agree is crossing a line. The curb stomp didn't particularly bother me, Kratos does much worse to Helios in another game.

So, Kratos, let's break this down... you can crush her face, that's cool, but you can't stab her. DO NOT STAB HER. Or do any kinds of grabs or throws, no-go on that either. People might get the wrong idea. Just crush her face okay? No one will think you have unsavory intentions if you do that.

Also, seriously, people, GENETIC FALLACY.

Edited March 11, 2013 by relyanCe

[AngelCityOutlaw]

So, Kratos, let's break this down... you can crush her face, that's cool, but you can't stab her. DO NOT STAB HER. Or do any kinds of grabs or throws, no-go on that either. People might get the wrong idea. Just crush her face okay? No one will think you have unsavory intentions if you do that.

Also, seriously, people, GENETIC FALLACY.

Yeah, tons of that goin' on here.

[MC Final Sigma]

So, Kratos, let's break this down... you can crush her face, that's cool, but you can't stab her. DO NOT STAB HER. Or do any kinds of grabs or throws, no-go on that either. People might get the wrong idea. Just crush her face okay? No one will think you have unsavory intentions if you do that.

Also, seriously, people, GENETIC FALLACY.

Not what I said. The imagery is clearly coded as sexual, and specifically so in this case - compare every other god/goddess kill in the series. None of these actions is particularly lurid by itself, but it makes a strong combination. And it's not a "genetic fallacy" because you can't see the obvious.

Also, Cash and Change, women are more adversely affected by this sexist trope and possibly, on the whole, more acutely aware of it, but they are not the sole arbiters of what's sexist or not. Anyone can give their point of view, and it's not like we've been somehow excluding women. I don't know the gender of half these people.

[Dexie]

Secret of Mana is the only game I can think of where a woman rescues a man. I liked it, although it didn't change the game any. It could just as easily been her sister that needed rescuing.

Just off the top of my head:

Sonic Adventure 2: Amy has to rescue Sonic from prison.

Beyond Good & Evil: The majority of the plot revolves around the main character Jade trying to rescue her father figure.

Super Princess Peach: Peach has to save Mario and Luigi.

Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure: The main character is trying to save the Prince from an evil witch who's turned him to stone.

Final Fantasy VII: Not the typical rescue, but it's Tifa that has to save Cloud when he's in his coma and having his mental problems towards the end of the game.

I'm sure there's more, these are just the immediate ones that jump to mind.

[Brandon Strader]

Not what I said. The imagery is clearly coded as sexual, and specifically so in this case - compare every other god/goddess kill in the series. None of these actions is particularly lurid by itself, but it makes a strong combination.

You're alone on the rape fantasy stuff, and wow dude. It's amazing to see what kind of crazy stuff people come up with that isn't actually there.

[MC Final Sigma]

You're alone on the rape fantasy stuff, and wow dude. It's amazing to see what kind of crazy stuff people come up with that isn't actually there.

I guess it's easier to hide behind subjective appraisals than to show me why I'm wrong.

[Dexie]

You're alone on the rape fantasy stuff, and wow dude. It's amazing to see what kind of crazy stuff people come up with that isn't actually there.

I still can't see it either. I watched the video several times, and I never got the sexual vibe that it supposedly has.

I mean, I'm not trying to say the God of War series isn't sexist, but there's a LOT of better examples in the series that could be used, then trying to make a stretch about how it's a rape fantasy because he impales her on a spike.

EDIT: Good news about the achievement name though: http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/11/controversial-god-of-war-ascension-trophy-altered-in-upcoming-p/

Edited March 11, 2013 by Dexie

[Tensei]

So, Kratos, let's break this down... you can crush her face, that's cool, but you can't stab her. DO NOT STAB HER. Or do any kinds of grabs or throws, no-go on that either. People might get the wrong idea. Just crush her face okay? No one will think you have unsavory intentions if you do that.

Also, seriously, people, GENETIC FALLACY.

And you're committing a strawman fallacy by arguing against things that haven't been said. Again, I don't think anybody in this thread wants to impose censorship on videogame writers, so "you can't do x or y" is a pretty huge exaggeration of what has been said.

MC Final Sigma offered an explanation for why the scene in question was/is considered controversial, and I have given my own thoughts on it a few posts up as well. I think a lot of it has to do with the way in which the scene is portrayed: it's nowhere near as blatantly over the top as some of the other execution scenes, he's not ripping off her arm and using it to stab out her eyes or anything like that, but he basically just grabs her by the face/throat and slams her into the wall repeatedly, and the camera specifically zooms in quite closely on her face.

It's disturbing to me exactly because it's relatively subdued and realistic, so it calls to mind associations with real life analogues such as domestic violence, and yeah, I think there definitely is a sexual element in there too. This is obviously very subjective, but hopefully it can show some insight in why the scene generates controversy.

That said, I don't think the scene itself is that problematic, even if it were explicitly made to be disturbing. After all, we already know Kratos basically is a raping, pillaging mass murderer, so a disturbing scene like that is relatively in-character for him. I take more issue with the achievement name than the associated scene.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Tensei

[Native Jovian]

Coop, your argument here brings to mind a passage from this article

The quote you use is incredibly dense and sort of lacks a conclusion, so I had to actually go to the article to figure out what you were getting at. As far as I can tell, this is the actual argument being made:

This notion suggests that racism is an abstract hypothetical that functions outside of our human and social systems and that without conscious human choice cannot occur.

Here's the thing: that's not what we're suggesting. It's certainly possible to be sexist unconsciously, by accident, or without realizing it. You don't have to make a conscious decision to be sexist in order to be sexist -- indeed, I would argue that the vast majority of sexism is not conscious or deliberate.

What we're saying is that something isn't sexist unless it's sexist. It seems stupid when you put it that way, but that's what it boils down to. The video makes a very good argument that the use of tropes like the damsel in distress may be sexist. I agree, it may be. But that doesn't mean the use of tropes like the damsel in distress is always sexist. Even the video itself says this (albeit as a bit of a disclaimer, in the last 30 seconds of a 20 minute video).

This is what I was getting at earlier about using a single blatant example first. If you want to talk about sexism, it'd be smart to start with something that everyone can look at and go "yep, that's sexist, no question". That's why we've fallen into talking about specific examples of whether or not Mario and/or Zelda are sexist, instead of talking about the larger issue of sexism in video games as a general topic.

But let's try to move things along to a more productive line of discussion: what should game developers do to reduce the presence of sexism in video games? Is it possible to retool classic franchises like Mario and Zelda to eliminate possibly-sexist themes (like the damsel in distress) without pissing off fans? Because, let's face it -- a company isn't going to make changes that will cause it to lose money. Having the next Zelda game star Zelda instead of Link, for example, will alienate a lot of fans. Not because those fans are unconscious sexists who don't want to play as a female character, but because Link has always been the playable character of every Zelda game, and changing that formula is going to annoy a lot of folks.

I think one answer is something we've already briefly discussed in this thread: get rid of lazy writing. Instead of having Zelda kidnapped yet again and need Link to go save her, have them both go off to accomplish separate-but-complimentary goals. (For example, in Ocarina of Time, instead of having Zelda captured and held in Ganon's castle, have Link assault the front gates to provide a distraction while Zelda uses her Shiek ninja skills to sneak in unnoticed and sabotage his defenses.) Even something as simple as making Peach a playable character in a Mario game (why did New Super Mario Bros Wii use two Toads instead of Toad and Peach?) would do a lot to -- if nothing else -- placate critics. Again, I don't necessarily think that something like the lack of Peach as a playable character is necessarily sexist, but if they can avoid even the appearance of sexism (and improve their writing at the same time), then why not do it?

[Dexie]

That said, I don't think the scene itself is that problematic, even if it were explicitly made to be disturbing. After all, we already know Kratos basically is a raping, pillaging mass murderer, so a disturbing scene like that is relatively in-character for him. I take more issue with the achievement name than the associated scene.

...when has Kratos ever raped someone?

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

There are some good female role model characters out there. I always liked Samus and Joanna Dark. But in later games, developers made them more into sex objects.

In Metroid: Other M, Samus has had a DD cup boob job (in Metroid Prime she had B cup! in Metroid: Other M she has a uni-boob!!). Her Zero Suit also now has what looks like high heels (... yeah, that won't impede your movement ). Not to mention Samus being just... weird. And having some sort of complex and being whiny... well... and... ugh I don't want to think of it anymore. ~_~ rubbish.

Samus sort of always had this problem, but it's just been exacerbated in more recent games. The player is rewarded for beating the game with 100% completion or in minimal time by seeing scantily clad images of her. Now she's been portrayed with the skin tight outfit and high heels.

I also didn't play Other M and like to pretend didn't happen.

[Tensei]

...when has Kratos ever raped someone?

I meant that he's like the archetype of a completely amoral character. I don't think that there ever actually would be a full-on rape scene in any of the games because that would generate a whole lot of controversy, but I could see it fitting his character, don't you agree? Derail aside though.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Tensei

[Brandon Strader]

I meant that he's like the archetype of a completely amoral character. I don't think that there ever actually would be a full-on rape scene in any of the games because that would generate a whole lot of controversy, but I could see it fitting his character, don't you agree? Derail aside though.

As someone who has actually played God of War from the first game and is familiar with the character, no.

[Radiowar]

The quote you use is incredibly dense and sort of lacks a conclusion, so I had to actually go to the article to figure out what you were getting at.

what i was getting at was (specifically in response to The Coop, who seemed to be suggesting that a person/action/utterance is only as sexist as the intentions behind it) the part that i bolded: the (false) notion that racism (and by analogy, sexism) is something that is spoken or acted into existence, rather than something which is deeply, totally embedded in our societies, our language, our behavior, and so on.

Here's the thing: that's not what we're suggesting. It's certainly possible to be sexist unconsciously, by accident, or without realizing it. You don't have to make a conscious decision to be sexist in order to be sexist -- indeed, I would argue that the vast majority of sexism is not conscious or deliberate.

What we're saying is that something isn't sexist unless it's sexist. It seems stupid when you put it that way, but that's what it boils down to. The video makes a very good argument that the use of tropes like the damsel in distress may be sexist. I agree, it may be. But that doesn't mean the use of tropes like the damsel in distress is always sexist. Even the video itself says this (albeit as a bit of a disclaimer, in the last 30 seconds of a 20 minute video).

This is what I was getting at earlier about using a single blatant example first. If you want to talk about sexism, it'd be smart to start with something that everyone can look at and go "yep, that's sexist, no question". That's why we've fallen into talking about specific examples of whether or not Mario and/or Zelda are sexist, instead of talking about the larger issue of sexism in video games as a general topic.

sure, i understand that. but to continue the thought from the article i referenced, if we can agree that sexism - or institutionalized oppression - is something which exists outside of intentional, direct, blatant acts - things which, as you say, all but the most reasonably people would be able to interpret as reprehensible without much effort - then we are left with the problem of how to illustrate the existence of something abstract, something which goes relatively unnoticed, something which indeed exists in part because of the ease with which it may be dismissed as irrelevant, exaggerated, or imagined. so, i still maintain that the incredibly thorough analysis of this seemingly mild, inoffensive pattern is a valid approach to the overall goal of the series - something which i imagine will become clearer as further videos with similar levels of detail are released.

[Rozovian]

what should game developers do to reduce the presence of sexism in video games? Is it possible to retool classic franchises like Mario and Zelda to eliminate possibly-sexist themes (like the damsel in distress) without pissing off fans?

The problem isn't the distress, it's the damsel. Make him/her an active character rather than an inactive one. Kidnapping princesses isn't the problem, it's that the princess doesn't do anything that is.

In the Zelda example, we've had plenty of side characters that we've played as at times, if indirectly. I'm thinking of statues and seagulls and things like that. Much of a typical Zelda game is a puzzle game anyway, so why not play those parts a bit more like the Lost Vikings?

In the same vein, why not make Peach _a_ playable character in a Mario game? SMB2 did it. Mario keeps switching hats, why not switch characters just as well? DK64 did it.

And nothing's really stopping them from doing a Starfox game centered on Crystal. Why not a spin-off series focused on non-technological stuff. Less flying, more... idunno, crystals and things.

Overall, the problem is presenting a motivation for the players. Saving a princess is a simple idea, so is defeating an evil wizard/dragon/whatever. Combining them gets you the formula the vid complains about. We could just as well make the storyabout breaking a curse over a land or another character (the king, perhaps?), leaving the princess (because there must be one) to play a more active role in the story and perhaps the game too.

We're still talking about a male fantasy here, whether it's saving the girl, or saving the world with her... so there's still marketability.

[Tensei]

As someone who has actually played God of War from the first game and is familiar with the character, no.

What, a classical-era Spartan soldier is unlikely to be a rapist? He would probably at least be a pederast (which would be considered rape in todays society). Are you familiar with how messed up classical Greece was, both in reality and in mythology? Cause I had classical greek as a HS subject and there was a LOT of that. Let's end this tangent though.

[swansdown]

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Edited September 8, 2023 by swansdown

[Cash]

Back when no effort was put into storylines, yeah, someone's girlfriend was kidnapped. It was just an excuse to have a game, and there was next to no characterization. (Double Dragon FTW!) In retrospect, the frequent use of helpless women is embarrassing just like old cartoons are embarrassing for racial stereotypes. Let's be more critical of newer games as they come.

Hmm, that's an interesting way to look at it, like old, racist cartoons. Cartoons like this:

I'm more concerned about being able to choose to play as a female character and not look like a barbie doll in street clothes. As a rule for fantasy games if women are dressed up in what looks like metal bathing suits, I try to avoid it. Especially if the party travels through an ice level.

My sister is also a gamer, and she's always happy to have the choice to play a female character. Most open world games (Skyrim), as well as RPG's with moral choices (Mass Effect), give you the option to be female, which is nice. I agree the metal bathing suit armor is silly, it's not really practical to go into battle with skimpy armor. Or to walk around in snow.

Also, Cash and Change, women are more adversely affected by this sexist trope and possibly, on the whole, more acutely aware of it, but they are not the sole arbiters of what's sexist or not. Anyone can give their point of view, and it's not like we've been somehow excluding women. I don't know the gender of half these people.

I also didn't say women are the sole arbiters of sexism. Obviously women aren't because the word sexism refers to both sexes. I'll take into account opinions of men, myself included, but I feel that women would know best on this issue (within reason of course, perhaps not the best word choice). Perhaps there are more women in here, good point. Though I get the impression that there are mostly men, but I could be wrong. As for few responses to female input, I only said that because Vilecat posted earlier, in relation to why Anita talked about Mario and Zelda, yet no one really seemed to address the post. That was my impression, maybe I'm wrong.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Cash