I want to buy a Sax!

[Kittie Rose]

Can someone recommend me where to get a cheap entry level Sax somewhere in Europe? And how much does a cheap ass Sax *really* differ from an expensive one?

Thanks!

[Emura]

Hello, welcome to the wonderful world of reeds.

I'm assuming you've never played a sax before? In that case, I 100% recommend you rent first, and take some lessons, before you think about buying. This way, you'll have a chance to see what playing the sax is all about, and see if you have the patience for practicing it.

In that case, your first question should be what kind of sax do you want to play? Solosists generally play one of three sizes of saxophones, either the tenor (Charlie Parker), alto (John Coltrane), or soprano (Kenny G), though the baritone sax is not without its charm. That might be a bit expensive for a new player, though. Additionally, the C-Melody sax, which is between a tenor and alto in size and tone is seeing a revival in modern jazz, but since these are no longer manufactured, your only option is to buy vintage.

I own two altos myself, and am toying around with the idea of buying a sorpano. There are several mixes on the site where you can hear these saxes in action. Geoffrey Taucer and The Prophet of Mephisto's Final Fantasy 6 mix "Canvas of Dreams" features a soprano in the lead, while AmIEvil generally solos on a tenor. I can't remember any mixes specifically with an alto, but you can imagine that the sound is somewhere in between that of the tenor and soprano.

So, brand names and what-have-you. When buying or renting, brand names are a must. Recently there have been a lot of horns comming out of China with, well, not at all stellar qualities. I'd say, on a scale of 1 to 10, they are on average a 2. Or less. For learning on altos and tenors, most agree that the Yamaha 23 series are the best - I'll get to Sopranos in a second. The two models to look for are the YTS-23 and YAS-23, tenor and alto respectively, depending on which you decide to learn on. Another brand to look for is Yanagisawa. When this company first started producing saxes in the 70s, the quality was similar to saxes currently comming from China. They've come a long way in the past 30 years, and their new saxes, I've been told, are quite good. Just make sure you get your hands on a recently manufactured one. A common name in the beginner's sax market is Bundy. My first rental was a Bundy. I can't really say anything nice about them, but they do work, and it's fine to learn on until you get a horn of your own.

Ok, Soprano saxes. These saxes have their own little troubles. If you're playing in an ensemble, they are notoriously hard to tune, and keep in tune. If you are very sure the Soprano is for you, don't bother with the beginner's lines. Arguably, the two best soprano models are the Selmer Mark-VI soprano, and the Yamaha YSS-62 (The 62 series is Yamaha's Pro/Custom model). Expect to pay at least $3000 US each for these, new.

One question I researched recently was buying vintage saxaphones. One reason for the popularity of vintage horns, other than the "cool" factor, is the quality. It is generally agreed that saxes made years ago were of much higher quality, on account of them all being hand-made. Arguably, the best saxes ever made were the Selmer Mark VI series, which were made in baritone, tenor, alto, and soprano sizes up until the 70s, when they started producing the Mark VII (Actually, they still make the Mark VI soprano). Expect to pay $3000 US for all but the baritone models, and more for a baritone.

I'll let you in on a secret though. If you want a professional, vintage saxophone at a great price, there are two names to look out for. Buescher and Conn. The Buescher True-Tone models can generally be found for under $500 US, and are some of the best American saxes ever made. Just make sure you buy one of the True-Tones manufactures between 1926 and 1950. The Conn 8M (tenor) and 6M (alto), have a similar reputation, though they are genereally slightly more expensive. Vintage horns aren't for everyone, though. They all tend to have unique "features" such as a slightly awkward mechanical system, or some sort of distinctive or odd positioning. It would be easiest to learn on a modern sax before buying vintage, but I won't say that it's better. It really all depends on the player.

The first sax I played was a Bundy (which is actually made by Selmer, in the old Buescher factory. Go figure), and as I mentioned before, I can't say that it was a stellar sax. The fingering was nice, though, it had that going for it at least. I ended up renting it for nearly 2 years. The first sax I owned was a Yamaha YAS-23, and I don't even need to sing its praises. It can do that itself. For a beginner's sax, it plays just as easily as any other beginner's sax, and the sound quality gets close to some of the professional-level saxes. I picked it up used for about $800 US from my local music store, and continued to learn on it. Eventually I did some small gigs, and that's when I first started to feel self-conscious about playing a beginner's model sax at paid performances. Now honestly, nobody would be able to tell the difference live, and it's hard enough in a recording, but I had played my 23 for years, and I decided it was time for a pro model sax.

My main sax now is a 1926 Buescher True-Tone, which I had overhauled and repadded with kangeroo leather, and I absolutely love it.

There are some other things to conside when buying a sax, such as reeds and mouthpieces, but I won't get into that too much. Your sax should come with a mouthpiece, which will get you started. Which reeds to buy generally depend on the mouthpiece, but personally I like Rico Royal and Vandoren reeds. You'd want to start on a fairly soft reed, such as a 2.5. Reed hardness is measured on a scale of 1 to 5. I don't know anyone who plays anything softer than 2, or harder than 4.5, though. Mouthpieces depend on the music you play. If you take lessons, either use the one your sax came with, or go with the instructor's recommendations. If you're just going to try and learn by yourself (not recommended!), the Selmer C* is a very popular and versatile mouthpiece. If you are looking for more of a jazzy-sounding piece, I'd recommend the hard-rubber Vandoren 55, 75, or 95 piece.

Where to buy, you ask? There is only one real option for a new player, and that is a genuine brick-and-mortar retailer. You can go in, try out the used horns they have for sale, get advice, try mouthpieces, and in general have a good time. You'll come away with a lot more knowledge that just reading anything I can write for you. Try a few music stores though, and keep shopping around.

eBay is a possibility, but I would not recommend it. Though I bought my Buescher through eBay, it was a perfect example of why to not buy musical instruments on eBay. It turned out that there was some severe damage to the octave key mechanism, which I had to have replaced. In addition, the sax was in overall poorer shape than the picture and description made it seem, which was slightly disappointing, and in retrospect, completely expected. If you must go through eBay, check the descriptions for "recently overhauled." That should mean it is in playable condition. Not "overhauled, then stored for XX years" because that could be problematic as pads dry out over time. Additionally, long-term storage suggests a mechanical problem or fault with the sax.

That's all I can think of for now. Good luck in your quest!

Edit: I didn't really explain at all the difference between a pro model and a student model. Student models are made to be very easy to play, and as a result, the quality of the sound generally suffers. Pro saxes are the opposite. They are harder to play, but generally produce much better output, which I would say is more suitable for recording. Live, I don't think you will hear too much difference. The price difference is generally about $2000 US.

[zylance]

Damn, that's a long post. I have a couple of things to add:

1. Try to find someone in your area who is selling a sax; go used if you can. You will shave 100's of dollars (euros) off your purchase, and if you get lucky, you might find a real classic someone is selling as junk. Be sure to go play it first, though.

2. Don't forget the possibility of a bari sax! I don't have one (only an alto), but I play it in my school's jazz band and it is a blast. Expect to pay quite a bit more for one, though.

I will emphasise on renting one first, especially if this is your first reeded instrument. Sometimes, it comes naturally, sometimes not. Don't worry too much on getting the best sax in the world for your first; remember, it has more to do with your mouthpiece and reed.

Happy saxing!

[Kittie Rose]

Thanks. I don't know about renting there's nowhere here I can. I've played flutes before and I can blow very hard so I think I'd like it.

One of the reasons why I want a cheap sax is so I don't blow money on something that isn't so great, but at least I'll need it if I need a quick sax lick in one of my songs.

Do you know the Bauhaus song in Fear of Fear? I'd like to play something like that. I'm looking to play both some jazz and the weirder applications goth rock put it to.

I already play guitar and keyboard so I can't really afford a really expensive one.

Are these any good -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-Stagg-Alto-Saxophone-sax-outfit_W0QQitemZ7385574570QQcategoryZ16232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tenor-Saxophone-Matt-Gold-Plated-Brand-New_W0QQitemZ7387979699QQcategoryZ16234QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

There are some ridiculously cheap on US Ebay, but how much would it cost to ship a Sax to Europe?

I'd rather not pay more than E250 in total as I want to get Animal Crossing for my birthday too, I don't want to get an instrument I won't be able to play for my bday, though I've played flutes and I've been playing guitar and keys for a while. I'm not expecting it to sound good, just decent. I'll probably be fine tuning(like, EQ and maybe a bit of reverb, that sort of stuff) the sound on every recording. I just need it to sound like a sax and be able to make most of the same sounds as one even if it's not as good.

[OverCoat]

I can't remember any mixes specifically with an alto

Pretty much every song ever by DarkeSword

[zylance]

FYI:

You WON'T sound good enough to record with the sax until a year or too. Getting some decent chops takes time; don't rush it.

[Kittie Rose]

Is the sax really that hard? I mean even after a couple of months you can record on keyboard or guitar... I know Saxing is pretty Taxing(hehe), but a year to record anything decent sounds a bit extreme for someone who's already a reasonable musician.

[Chavous]

I use a Jean Baptiste Tenor Sax (around $1100 US, maybe 900 Euro?), and it hasn't failed me yet, even after 5-6 years of use.

Generally, yes, when you play sax, it takes a while to play really great flourishes and have a great recording tone. You need to gain breath support, and learn the dynamics that fit the song. Guitar and Keyboard are pretty much controlled by the hands, and usually your hands are more trained than your breath/breathing action when you try to pick up and play an instrument.

[Kittie Rose]

I've also been learning to sing lately, and have managed to make my voice quite powerful. Does that help? I'm getting good at controlling tone.

[zylance]

It is not just breathing. It's mouth muscle strength, IE chops. Building and controlling those are what takes the time.

[Emura]

Yes, if you are serious about playing the sax competently, you'll have to be serious about investing time into it. It's not about being just a good musician, it's being a good sax player. The flute experience will definately help get you started, though. I read someone say to give it at least a year, but I think you'll want more than that. Even after 10 years, you'll still be learning. Hell, I don't think you can ever stop learning new things on the sax.

Actually, I would say that about any instrument. If you want to get into jazz and soloing, add another few years of work on scales and neat techniques such as growling before you're stage ready.

I recorded my first songs near the end of my 5th year playing the sax, and even though I was playing in a 17-player big band ensemble, I still could hear faults in my tone. Maybe I was just a slow learner, but it nevertheless does take some serious work. I'd say I've come a long way since then, but by no means would I call myself a professional at all.

Are these any good -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-Stagg-Alto-Saxophone-sax-outfit_W0QQitemZ7385574570QQcategoryZ16232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tenor-Saxophone-Matt-Gold-Plated-Brand-New_W0QQitemZ7387979699QQcategoryZ16234QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Without a doubt, I say stay away from those. I've never heard of the company "Stagg" (the first sax you linked to), and the second one doesn't even have a brand name, or engravings on the bell. Those a key tipoffs that the quality of those are likely terrible. Additionally, did you see how the second sax on that list is available in a wide variety of colours, like red and blue? I wouldn't trust them at all, as they are perfect examples of the crap comming out of China right now.

I can't remember any mixes specifically with an alto

Pretty much every song ever by DarkeSword

Also, Red Tailed Fox & The Prophet of Mephisto's Sonic 3 remix "Pure Black, or Marbles and Creame?" which is still on the front page, lol. Forgot about that one.

[Kittie Rose]

Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all :/ I wish I knew how to tell good Saxes. It's a lot harder than with guitars. Would someone be able to find one on Ebay for me, that I could afford(around 250 euros secondhand?)?

Then again, I bought a "dodgy" guitar and it really did turn out to be an $800 guitar being sold for $200. They were pretty much overstock from a cancelled washburn model, they were pretty cheaply made but sounded and played amazing somehow.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I own two altos myself, and am toying around with the idea of buying a sorpano. There are several mixes on the site where you can hear these saxes in action. Geoffrey Taucer and The Prophet of Mephisto's Final Fantasy 6 mix "Canvas of Dreams" features a soprano in the lead.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Brad used an alto for that.

He used a soprano in "A Star Freezes Over," though (except for the chorus, for which he used an alto)

[Emura]

Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all :/ I wish I knew how to tell good Saxes. It's a lot harder than with guitars. Would someone be able to find one on Ebay for me, that I could afford(around 250 euros secondhand?)?

You will not be able to find a "good" sax on eBay for less than 250 euros. Even if you do, it will still need an overhaul, which means new pads, springs, and cork. While I did pay $232 US for my Buescher True Tone, I also paid $600 more for the overhaul and repairs to get it into working condition. Unless you have a friend or neighbour around with a sax they're willing to give to you, 250 euros won't buy a sax that I believe is worth investing in.

I own two altos myself, and am toying around with the idea of buying a sorpano. There are several mixes on the site where you can hear these saxes in action. Geoffrey Taucer and The Prophet of Mephisto's Final Fantasy 6 mix "Canvas of Dreams" features a soprano in the lead.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Brad used an alto for that.

He used a soprano in "A Star Freezes Over," though (except for the chorus, for which he used an alto)

Whoops, my bad. A beautiful song, none-the-less.

[DrumUltimA]

In that case, your first question should be what kind of sax do you want to play? Solosists generally play one of three sizes of saxophones, either the tenor (Charlie Parker), alto (John Coltrane), or soprano (Kenny G), though the baritone sax is not without its charm.

Mixed up the alto and tenor there ^_-

Gerry Mulligan is probably the best example of a bari soloist you can find. His bari playing is beautiful *_*

[spinecraft]

playing sax is much more complicated than keyboards or guitar because it involves breath control, which is really strange.

[OutLander]

The sax is one of the hardest instruments to master. Like someone else already said, you will need at least a year to really get good at it. The way you play really depends on you. I find that on my mpc, I can usually get by with about a 1/4 to a third of it in my mouth at any given time.

My band director once said that the sax is the easiest to play, but the hardest to keep in tune. With most instruments, they have at least one note that will always be out of tune. With the sax, one note is in tune and the rest are out of tune. You really need to work on emberchoure(sp?) to be able to play the wide range of sounds on a sax(in tune).

When it comes to choosing a sax, people can reccomend certain types to you, but you really need to play 'em to find the right one. What works for one person may not work for you.

I'm going to reiterate what has already been said: buy used, but only if you are serious about it. If you do that and have five or six hundred dollars to spare, you should get it overhauled and turn it into a really good horn.

I'm fairly certain some of this has already been said, but just thought I'd reiterate it.