XPRTNovice Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 After some somewhat heated discussions that have occurred in the Recruit and Collaborate thread, I thought this would be an appropriate place to launch a discussion and repository of information, anecdotes, and advice regarding music (in any form) as a money-making venture. When someone posts a job offer in the R&C thread, I think we look kind of bad as a community when idiots like me post uninformed opinions, or when people start to make personal attacks on each other. Music + Money + OCR = Arguments, it seems. The solution is to get informed, start a discussion, and learn from each other as well as provide more professional resources from elsewhere. I'd love to hear the success stories and failure stories from the pros we have here as well as the struggles of newbs like me. I also think this is a place where we can expect potential business partners to NOT look and see us muddling through, whereas if we make a big stink talking about stuff INSIDE their thread, they obviously know where our experience is. I am definitely not against people jumping in the R&C thread and calling out a bad deal, though. That's protecting each other. So let's hear it. And please keep it civil and respect each other. This thread is about being stronger as musicians through smart business choices, not tearing each other down for having different opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 You're not a newb. You're an expert novice! Hahaha. I couldn't resist. Here is a story that directly relates to OCR. I'll just tell the facts about what happened and people can glean from it what they'd like. A dude posted a job to cover a song and he offered 40 bucks as payment. I think we can all agree that it's not the greatest price. So a lot of people got on the guy's case to let him know that he was offering too little [despite the fact that people often ask for things for free and have their requests fulfilled]. The genre seemed right up my alley so I took the job and the guy was so happy with the result that he paid me double his original asking price with no persuasion on my part other than a job well- done. An excellent thread, XPRT. I hope a lot of people contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 A dude posted a job to cover a song and he offered 40 bucks as payment. I think we can all agree that it's not the greatest price. I remember that job, and I remember thinking "Man, I'm not working for $2.00 an hour!" But I also think that people put too much stock in bottom-line price. I'm a budding author on the side, and my first sales to magazines were in the realm of $5-$20 per story - and that story took me a long time to write. I was writing for pennies on the hour, but now when I talk to agents and they ask me where I've been published, I can list over 15 magazines - some of which paid me over $100 per story, now that I built up my cred - and that lets them know you're a professional who is working hard to climb the ladder. So, I'd do a high-profile job for free if I knew it was going to get me more business, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Legendary Zoltan Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Nice! I think that if all those people in that thread already have plenty of paying composition jobs, then it makes sense for them not to do the job. I assumed that most of us here are not fully sustained by music jobs alone. I could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Anything with the words "music" and "business" gets my attention immediately I do think we need to have more courtesy for people coming to the site looking for music. Everyone needs to remember that many people coming here with projects in mind are young, or students, or hobbyists, or some combination of these things. I remember my first gig as a high school student paid $40 for 4 songs. My next one was maybe $80-100 for 2. A year later or so I got paid $150 for a 60 second cue. Just because you start out charging very little doesn't lock you in to that rate, as long as you consider the scope of the projects you're working on. $80-100 for a Newgrounds flash game is fine, but for a major commercial release, maybe not. Here's another personal example. For 6 months I've been working with an awesome dude (Clandesdyne) who first popped into #ocremix looking for some music. I'm honestly not sure anyone really listened to him or took him seriously but I shot him a message, asked about his projects, etc. Turns out he's done some high profile work and now we've collaborated on multiple projects together. I feel well-compensated for my time and I'm having a lot of fun with it. You have to remember that a great connection or work relationship can come from anyone, anywhere. I think the cases where you need to hold your ground are with the bigger commercial projects. If someone is Kickstarting a $50k game and they only want to pay $100, I think that's wrong for anyone to take. Basically, if they HAVE a budget, you want to get your fair share. In cases where they can't pay much upfront, I suggest rather than working for a relatively low amount, ask for royalties. This is a no-brainer for almost all indie game projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaris Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 You have to remember that a great connection or work relationship can come from anyone, anywhere. This. For doing professional sound design I have had so many opportunities open up and cool stuff just bc of a few chance encounters. Alot of my really good experience stemmed from doing work for free first. The biggest key is to get yourself out there and build a portfolio. Use your time to invest in yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 This. For doing professional sound design I have had so many opportunities open up and cool stuff just bc of a few chance encounters. Alot of my really good experience stemmed from doing work for free first. The biggest key is to get yourself out there and build a portfolio. Use your time to invest in yourself. Seconded. Not to continually draw parallels to writing, but I got one of my manuscripts in front of Brandon Sanderson's agent through participation in a conference, not by him noticing stuff I'd already published. Now he's looking at me as a potential client, even though he didn't take that manuscript. Going to one writing conference last August was probably the biggest boost to my writing career - but it was also a big boost because I had already done the aforementioned ladder-climbing by publishing for low pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshaggyfreak Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I'm actually starting to go through this process for the first time. I've taken on the position of lead composer/sound effects guy for a game that will soon have a kick starter going. I've talked about this with some folks but I don't want to say TOO much until the Kickstarter is up. It'll be an indy game but it has the potential to have a fairly decent budget considering that the game will be done by a fairly well known web comic artist. Depending on how things go with the Kickstarter, I'm fairly sure that I'll be walking away with the rights to the music I write as well as the profits from selling the soundtrack. Other than that, we still need to discuss any royalties, etc. This is the first time that I'm taking on a project like this. I've been friends with this particular artists for quite some time and I know that he'll treat me fairly. So, once things blow into the wind, I'll be talking about it about more on the forums. Depending on said budget, I may even be able to bring on some guest vocalists/musicians. I know that I'll at least want one guest female vocalist no matter what. Zircon, I actually plan on talking to you about this a bit this weekend to get a bit of advise and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diodes Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 I've been teaching music privately (primarily instruments, like guitar, piano, voice, violin, etc.) for about 6 years now. For most of that time, it has been my main source of income, but I have also done other work concurrently, mainly software contracting and performing. In my experience, and from what I observe of my peers, there are a lot of problems for music teachers. I can't speak too much about teaching in schools, because I haven't done too much of that. I'm talking more about private teaching. Private teachers have a choice to work for a studio, or teach on their own, or do some of both. Teaching on your own takes a tremendous amount of work because you are essentially running your own business. You have to find students on your own, so you have to do your own marketing and networking, and it's a constant effort to keep finding new students. Not only is that a ton of work, but there is no guarantee that you'll get much or anything at all from any of it. Teaching in a studio has its own set of problems. From what I can tell, it's really hard for studios to do well financially. The profit margin on things like instruments and sheet music is very low, so they have to make a good chunk of money from teachers. (Actually, renting out instruments seems to do decently well, too.) As a result, they take a huge percentage of the fee that they charge the students. One place I worked for took close to 50%, and for group lessons/camps that I did, at more than one studio, they took something like 60%, which to me is outrageous. However, they have rent to pay, and in some cases are desperate to stay afloat, so that is what they choose to do. In addition to the high studio fees that they take out of teachers' pay, there also seems to be a lot of toxic work dynamic drama going on at some of these places. Now I've only worked for a handful, so I shouldn't say that will be the case across the board. I would just caution anybody who is going into this work situation to observe very carefully how the management treats the teachers, both on a personal level and with their policies. This is more of a concern in this work setting than a full-time job, because at most of these places, you are still an independent contractor, not a full employee, so you miss out on some rights and benefits. A lot of these studios tend to see teachers as interchangeable commodities, and they really don't care who is teaching a particular student, as long as that student keeps going to the studio, because they make the same amount of money in the end. The reason why many teachers stay at studios with less than ideal working conditions is because they have a larger community presence, and can continue to give teachers students regularly (as long as their business is doing relatively well). I know teachers who teach at home or go to peoples' houses, but are only able to do this 1 day out of the week, because it's so hard to find students on their own. Currently, I am fortunate enough to be working at a place where the owner values the relationships between the students and teachers, and generally has the philosophy that it's in his best interest to keep his teachers and students happy, so that they'll continue to stay there. He also believes in interdisciplinary learning, so I have had an opportunity to expand my teaching to songwriting and composition, music production, and even drawing and cosplay/fashion design. I personally would love to teach more of songwriting and production, but the demand for these things is low. A lot of students that I meet are interested, but parents being dubious of their value is one issue. Another is the general lack of prevalence for these kinds of lessons. Kids might really love to do it, but it's not well-known that the lessons are available, so nobody is thinking to look for them. I believe that another issue for teachers right now is the general decline in interest for music lessons. In my opinion, this is due to problems with the economy, and a dramatic increase in free resources to learn how to play songs on your own. However, there are still always people around who value having a teacher-student relationship, and there are always people who want to learn how to play piano and guitar. If I had to give some advice to somebody who is considering this as a career, or actively trying to get into it, I would say: * What I said before, about proceeding to studios with caution. * If you're trying to build up your own studio, do everything you can to promote yourself, but be aware that there is a very real possibility that you won't be able to get enough students. * Get really good at as many instruments as you can. Be the go-to person for whatever instrument/s you play. * Build relationships with your students and their parents. If they love you, they'll follow you no matter where you go, if you switch studios, open up your own studio, or decide to start teaching out of your basement. * Have a backup plan. If you are absolutely set on staying in the music field only, then get really good at your instrument/s and get session work or live gigs. Learn how to repair guitars. Build a portfolio, and get work as a composer. Make albums and sell them. Don't expect that you'll be able to fully support yourself on teaching alone. A lot of financially successful music teachers (and musicians in general) that I know are successful because they diversify and find every kind of work opportunity that they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 *on teaching* Music teachers, in my opinion, have one of the lowest hourly wages in the professional world. They are incredibly undervalued by the educational systems, yet they put in more after-hours support than anyone else in the entire school. One of my best friends went to be a music teacher; after working like a dog in college, taking 25 credits a semester, he now makes just over $30,000 a year and probably works 12-15 hours a day, weekends, summers, and whatever. I almost never see him because he is utterly consumed with what he's doing, AND he has to supplement his income by gigging on the nights. My father in law is almost 60 and is getting paid right at about the poverty line as a music teacher. That being said, music teachers have always, to me, seemed as though they wouldn't trade it for the world. And teaching for a school is much more of a raw deal (financially) than private lessons. I've been teaching private lessons on and off for about 10 years now from whatever place I could find in my home. I would have maybe 3-5 students at any one time, limit it to 1-2 nights a week to not make myself crazy, and charge $40/hour. For me it was an outstanding source of extra income, but there is serious upkeep issues, especially when you teach in a foreign country and your students (as children of military parents) are constantly transferring. I've stopped teaching since I come back to the US mostly because of the opportunity cost. I might make $120 in one evening, but I've now lost 3 hours of composition time. I don't want to be a private lesson instructor forever; I want to quit my day job and be cool and famous Good post, Amy. It's definitely a viable source of income that a lot of people ignore, but it's one that's reserved for instrumentalists like you and I. Someone who is incredibly brilliant at a DAW (UNlike me) doesn't have that option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esperado Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 I'm really glad this thread exists.Personally I feel like as musicians, we are pretty lucky to have OCR as a resource for finding projects to work on ( and the advertisment of being posted). You have to start somewhere, and for someone such as myself who is just starting out, finding projects,free or paid, seems like a really daunting task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 This site has some great tips about what to charge for your music http://www.filmandgamecomposers.com/guides/how-much-should-i-charge-to-compose-music I like the idea that if you do something for free for them, they should offer you a service for free in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Seconded. Not to continually draw parallels to writing, but I got one of my manuscripts in front of Brandon Sanderson's agent through participation in a conference, not by him noticing stuff I'd already published. Now he's looking at me as a potential client, even though he didn't take that manuscript. Going to one writing conference last August was probably the biggest boost to my writing career - but it was also a big boost because I had already done the aforementioned ladder-climbing by publishing for low pay. Dude, I SHOULD have known you would have wanted to get your stuff in front of Brandon. Nice work! You've already made the connection, but the next time I see him, I will definitely throw in a good word. He's been an OCR fan for a long time, even before his writing career took off. If you haven't told him you're on here, you should. Small world. And I wouldn't have known this without you talking about it in da thrad! Networkingz!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted June 9, 2013 Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 Dude, I SHOULD have known you would have wanted to get your stuff in front of Brandon. Nice work! You've already made the connection, but the next time I see him, I will definitely throw in a good word. He's been an OCR fan for a long time, even before his writing career took off. If you haven't told him you're on here, you should.Small world. And I wouldn't have known this without you talking about it in da thrad! Networkingz!!! Ha! Very interesting. Though I've met Brandon, it's not him I want to get my stuff in front of. It's his agent; Joshua. Brandon has no say on whether or not anyone publishes my work, but Joshua's job is to get a publisher to buy it. I already have stuff in front of him. Joshua is already asking me for future manuscripts after seeing what I've written so far, so this is good stuff. But next time I see Brandon I'll drop OCR and see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Burns Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Found something I thought I'd leave here: lots of data on musicians' income: http://money.futureofmusic.org This isn't a single report; by going to the "findings" section you can see their survey data presented through the lenses of different topics. Also, be sure to keep in mind the composition of their participants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 Neat stuff, thanks man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted July 29, 2013 Author Share Posted July 29, 2013 Hey, I was wondering if anyone that has done OSTs for video games before has a sort of sample contract that they use with the developer? I'm trying to do some of my own research, and I understand contracts from an author/publisher perspective as a writer, but I've never even seen a music one. Not sure which rights to sell, any specific verbage, etc. The guy I'm working with is really small time and a contract probably isn't really necessary, but it's something I'd like to get in the habit of doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Been a while since anyone has posted in here, but I've had an experience lately that, while tangential, I thought I'd post. I launched Renaissance Man Studio in September of 2013. The intent was to formalize my voiceover and music business into one LLC and then have a centralized place for customers to see what was going on. I dumped some money into advertising, dumped some money into the development of the site, and made sure all my other facets of my business (facebook, twitter, my freelancer profiles on freelancer sites) linked back to it. In short, I've decided to discontinue Renaissance Man Studio and rebrand specifically for voiceovers. I'll keep RenMan as my company for filing purposes, but using it as my platform isn't going to work. I'm doing this for multiple reasons, but primarily it's because RenMan Studio wasn't generating any business. At all. The only hits on the website I got were from AdWords, and all that did was cost me money to generate spam comments on the blog. I had been posting regularly on the blog, which should have helped my SEO, but I wasn't getting anything. I think the branding was wrong. Voiceover/music combo is a pretty rare thing, and production companies are almost never looking for both at the same time. If they are they almost always have different people looking for them. So, while I've done some commercial music, it was only by pitching it to my voiceover clients, and never from the "studio." Second, nobody is busting down the doors for my music. People ARE busting down the doors for my voiceover work. So I was diluting what was potentially a very powerful brand to do something that I enjoy a bit more but isn't generating any business (music). I also don't have as much time for it as I'm trying to squirm my way out of my day job and into a dual writing/voiceover career - two things that have the potential to support me financially and will allow me to leave the day job and, if I want to, begin building a music career. So I've decided to go through a rebranding phase. I'm successful on freelancing websites, but if I want to tap into the potential of my voiceover business, I need to be able to generate customers outside of those sites. In order to do that, I'll be re-commissioning a developer to to a new site that is specifically dedicated to voiceovers. I'll be changing my twitter and facebook pages to represent voiceover only, and I will only seek music work on an ad hoc basis. If I do start to write albums or want to market music, I'll create a bandcamp page or something. I don't have the content to do it right now, anyway, and if I do, people on the music side know me as XPRTNovice, not Renaissance Man Studio. So that's my story. A combination of brand dilution and not understanding my own time constraints led to a several month (and $$$) setback in my business building. I think a reset is going to put me in a much better position for building that business in the future. And when music comes, it comes. Right now, though, spending the time and marketing capital to force it is detracting from other more profitable ventures. Would love to hear some thoughts if you have them. If not, I hope you learn something from my mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Did you ever post on how you got so many people contacting you for voice work? Aside from offering quality performances, I thought I saw somewhere you actually went into good detail the things you were doing to network yourself into getting more regular voicework from a load of different people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Did you ever post on how you got so many people contacting you for voice work? Aside from offering quality performances, I thought I saw somewhere you actually went into good detail the things you were doing to network yourself into getting more regular voicework from a load of different people. So, believe it or not, 90% of my business comes from a freelancing website called voices.com. It's a pay-to-play site where you audition for jobs posted. I've gotten a great reputation there because there is a feedback system, and now I appear at the top of search lists. But that's a very small microcosm and there is waaaaay more business to be had that I have not tapped into yet. That's why I'm trying to build the business outside those sites. I get maybe 3-4 jobs monthly from direct contact, and typically those people actually found my profile via voices.com, anyway. The answer right now is brute force. Audition for 30+ jobs a day. My return on jobs is about 4% awarded vs. auditioned. That seems minuscule, but the person who has the highest return rate on that site is at 7.5%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 What is "pay-to-play" in this context? You mean you have to pay to audition for voice work, or they pay you to perform, or something similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 What is "pay-to-play" in this context? You mean you have to pay to audition for voice work, or they pay you to perform, or something similar? Oh, sorry. I pay a yearly membership fee on the site. That gives me a ranking in their search engine and the ability to audition for jobs that clients post. I audition for those jobs by submitting a sample of their script and a cover letter as well as my price (based on their budget range). The client then chooses me for the job and pays upfront into an escrow system (SurePay). We work on the job. When they're happy, they "release" the payment. The site takes a 10% cut of every job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Is there a decent unpaid equivalent for unpaid work? I wasn't really wanting to do any in a professional capacity, I wanted to do it as a hobby or let it build into something I could offer for $ if I got really good at it. Not loving the idea of feedback for upped search engine placement either. Good idea for those hiring, but for people like me who just aren't set up well to being a client's magic genie, it's a bit more difficult, and the only people who ever leave me feedback for anything are the crazy people that waste my time, make unreasonable changes, don't pay, and then have the nerve to post "THIS GUY'S AN ASPIE DUMBSHIT. DON'T HIRE HIM." I even got that for buying Dragon Quest V DS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPRTNovice Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Is there a decent unpaid equivalent for unpaid work? I wasn't really wanting to do any in a professional capacity, I wanted to do it as a hobby or let it build into something I could offer for $ if I got really good at it.Not loving the idea of feedback for upped search engine placement either. Good idea for those hiring, but for people like me who just aren't set up well to being a client's magic genie, it's a bit more difficult, and the only people who ever leave me feedback for anything are the crazy people that waste my time, make unreasonable changes, don't pay, and then have the nerve to post "THIS GUY'S AN ASPIE DUMBSHIT. DON'T HIRE HIM." Yeah, unfortunately, like any business, your ability to network and interact without people wanting to kill you is important. Most clients, though, are very, very responsive and generally don't waste my time. 5 star feedback isn't from ass kissing or client pandering, though, it's from a quick turnaround and a good product. Most of the time I barely communicate with clients. They give me direction, I give them the files, and that's that. If there are edits, they are typically minor. It's also impossible for them not to pay because of the escrow system, which is nice. I've had a couple of clients disappear without releasing payment after they got their files, and the voices.com team releases the funds for me when I present my case. Regarding a place to do low budget stuff, try Elance.com. It's filled with people trying to get $500 voiceover work for $10.50 and a sandwich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Regarding a place to do low budget stuff, try Elance.com. It's filled with people trying to get $500 voiceover work for $10.50 and a sandwich. That does sound like me, I have a near fetish for undercharging. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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