Ninja-san Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Ok I think I got what your saying. Thanks for the tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-n-j-i-n Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It's definitely not safe that way no. However, I've yet to see an ultra grab someone doing say, a kick in the air. I don't play much SFIV so I'm not saying I know best (I don't!) but from all I've read/seen the upwards motion is without hitboxes and this it's not "good" as anti-air since the timing is EXTREMELY strict to get them on the downwards motion. Have you been hitting people on the way up the arc with the ultra? Just checking because my whole point is that it's not possible and thus it's not a "good" anti-air, especially considering what you're trading. All I can say is, I know what I've seen and have done. I did finish about hundreds of rounds that way and trapped enemies FLUSH whenever they tried jump kicking me. To me, this isn't even an argument. I know how it works. If you rather want to trust some SRK expert, then go ahead. I don't care if people don't trust me when I KNOW for certain it works. I honestly am dumbfounded by the 'no hitbox' statement since that only is a problem when you're starting the Ultra and the enemy has since landed on the ground, waiting to counter. I'm talking about people IN THE AIR, getting caught. To me, this is like stating a fact. I don't know what to say after this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProjectJusticeX Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Just try to keep in mind that if you're doing well, part of that is definitely the result of him being OP. He's not THAT op, he won't be banned any time soon so I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who does good with Sagat is only doing so because Sagat is the best character. (unlike Akuma in HD Remix who is banned from Evo and probably any other major tournament now that Evo banned him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anosou Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 All I can say is, I know what I've seen and have done. I did finish about hundreds of rounds that way and trapped enemies FLUSH whenever they tried jump kicking me.To me, this isn't even an argument. I know how it works. If you rather want to trust some SRK expert, then go ahead. I don't care if people don't trust me when I KNOW for certain it works. I honestly am dumbfounded by the 'no hitbox' statement since that only is a problem when you're starting the Ultra and the enemy has since landed on the ground, waiting to counter. I'm talking about people IN THE AIR, getting caught. To me, this is like stating a fact. I don't know what to say after this. You're probably right too. I can't speak from my own experience, only from what I've read. I wasn't trying to jump at you but it might have come off that way, so sorry about that. Anyway.. guess I'll have to go try it in training some time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flare4War Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 He's not THAT op, he won't be banned any time soon so I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who does good with Sagat is only doing so because Sagat is the best character. (unlike Akuma in HD Remix who is banned from Evo and probably any other major tournament now that Evo banned him) He didn't say that if you're doing good with Sagat it is only because he is OP. He is saying it is a contributing factor and the user should be aware of that. And he is THAT op, for reasons that zircon has clearly outlined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 If you look at the tiers for SF4, the latest ones put Sagat in an "S+" tier, along with Akuma, Zangief, and Viper. The fact that there is an "S+" tier doesn't really bode well, but here's the thing - those other three characters are not as EASY to dominate with. Zangief has to work for his wins because he has no zoning game. Akuma has low stamina. Viper has low damage, low stamina, and requires a lot of execution skill to do all of her cancel shennanigans. Sagat is just raw power. High offense, high defense, easy cancels, great ultra. Why did they make a character like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Why did they make a character like this? because fightan gaems lololollo edit: The real answer is because fighting games never seem to be made by people who actually play fighting games. And by made, I don't mean 'Executive Assitant Development Producer Overseer Who Watches the Watchmen' bullshit, I mean people who actually program the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Andy & others... regarding Sagat being "OP"... what you REALLY, REALLY need to understand about the tiers, is that they're for people playing at the highest of levels. Experts. People far better than you or me. It's true that, when you get absolutely fantastic players together and weed out all the possible strategies and tactics, yes, certain characters are going to fare better than others, consistently. But for players like "us" (assuming most here aren't over, say, 3000+BP), the tiers aren't really as applicable. Case in point, if you listen to the tiers, Vega's really not supposed to be that great, but (speaking for myself, but also from what I've seen), people manage to do quite a bit with him. The whole tier thing sounds like an excuse to me... most of the characters seem fairly balanced at average and above average levels of play, and only when you get people with insane skills do more consistent trends emerge. My two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zircon Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Well, on one level, I can see how that would make sense, but practically speaking I get my ass kicked by Sagat more often than other characters... on an average playing level. It's not that the people playing him are incredibly amazing, but, for example, getting hit with a Rose or Ken combo just doesn't sting as much as a Sagat combo. The dude dominates at any level of play IMO. His basic moveset, priorities, recovery times, stamina, stun, and damage are all amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anosou Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Well, on one level, I can see how that would make sense, but practically speaking I get my ass kicked by Sagat more often than other characters... on an average playing level. It's not that the people playing him are incredibly amazing, but, for example, getting hit with a Rose or Ken combo just doesn't sting as much as a Sagat combo. The dude dominates at any level of play IMO. His basic moveset, priorities, recovery times, stamina, stun, and damage are all amazing. Placebo effect, you think he's top tier so you "feel the sting". It's all in your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjSammyG Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I still can't believe I'm the only one mentioning DAN. Obviously S++ tier at any level of play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flare4War Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Placebo effect, you think he's top tier so you "feel the sting". It's all in your mind. I'm going to have to side with zircon again on this one. It isn't a placebo. He's designed different and I won't say that it was/is on purpose. Still some one can try against you using Ken and you'll hand them their ass in a wicker basket. They select Sagat and even though you'll win them, "The game is a foot..". If Sagat is highest tier, he's highest tier. Why need there be any complexity. About the ultras I'm again in agreement. Sagat's Ultra Combo isn't formidable it's nearly consummate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It isn't a placebo when you have one tiger uppecut do as much damage as a few of chun's COMBOS. One UPPERCUT What the crap is that about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeky Stoner Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ive faced a couple sagats online one actually ended up a tie i manage to beat most of the sagats online though there only been one or two that could really decimate my E.Honda(whom the more and more i play with seems like the strongest char to me in the game. i rather think abels super is really overpowered the last throw always does too much damage(but then again i think most throw based characters are really overpowering) especially Zangief I mean one of his fucking piledrivers takes out at least takes out a fourth of your health, its just too much. when it comes to sagat's super i agree its too much damage. i like dan too he's a riot and i think may have the fastest(although the weakest shoryukens) kinda getting into sakura too her exs are fucking WAY overpowered but her super is SUPER weak . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anosou Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm going to have to side with zircon again on this one. It isn't a placebo. He's designed different and I won't say that it was/is on purpose. Still some one can try against you using Ken and you'll hand them their ass in a wicker basket. They select Sagat and even though you'll win them, "The game is a foot..". If Sagat is highest tier, he's highest tier. Why need there be any complexity. About the ultras I'm again in agreement. Sagat's Ultra Combo isn't formidable it's nearly consummate. It isn't a placebo when you have one tiger uppecut do as much damage as a few of chun's COMBOS.One UPPERCUT What the crap is that about? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Stop thinking I'm serious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 i placebo'd your mom Seriously though, Sagat is just too insane. I actually do agree with the "placebo" hate with gief and c. viper, but sagat is just too strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I'm just curious about who you're playing against, and how often... atm I've worked up about 2200BP, though I routinely fall back to 1700 and build back up. I just beat a 3000+ Sagat, and in general the characters I'm having the hardest time against (as Ken) are Blanka and Vega, maybe M. Bison save that light punches seem to help a lot. As per Sagat being "Top Tier" and there being no "complexity"... you're phrasing these things in absolutes. For one, it's all about matchups, secondly, the tiers really are established based on higher levels of play. If you've got 8000 points and you tell me Sagat is ridiculously overpowered, that means something... if you're down with the scrubs like me, you're basing the assessment off your own abilities, which aren't the best barometer... I know we all like to talk shop and sound like we're SF experts and what not, but very few of us are, and tiers are always debatable. Dhalsim won against Sagat here: , yet Dhalsim isn't supposed to be great. Another thing that everyone's ignoring is that tier rating in many cases is an aggregate of how a given character plays against ALL other characters. If you're playing a different character every single match, then yes, Sagat will supposedly thrash you more than anyone else, but if (like most of us), you stick to one or even a several characters, the discrepancy is not as noticeable.In summation, statistics will no doubt show that tiers do exist, and I've no doubt Sagat is up at the top, but it's almost meaningless for most of us... in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flare4War Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'm just curious about who you're playing against, and how often... atm I've worked up about 2200BP, though I routinely fall back to 1700 and build back up. I just beat a 3000+ Sagat, and in general the characters I'm having the hardest time against (as Ken) are Blanka and Vega, maybe M. Bison save that light punches seem to help a lot.As per Sagat being "Top Tier" and there being no "complexity"... you're phrasing these things in absolutes. For one, it's all about matchups, secondly, the tiers really are established based on higher levels of play. If you've got 8000 points and you tell me Sagat is ridiculously overpowered, that means something... if you're down with the scrubs like me, you're basing the assessment off your own abilities, which aren't the best barometer... I know we all like to talk shop and sound like we're SF experts and what not, but very few of us are, and tiers are always debatable. Dhalsim won against Sagat here: , yet Dhalsim isn't supposed to be great. Another thing that everyone's ignoring is that tier rating in many cases is an aggregate of how a given character plays against ALL other characters. If you're playing a different character every single match, then yes, Sagat will supposedly thrash you more than anyone else, but if (like most of us), you stick to one or even a several characters, the discrepancy is not as noticeable.In summation, statistics will no doubt show that tiers do exist, and I've no doubt Sagat is up at the top, but it's almost meaningless for most of us... in my opinion. Your summation is wrong though, because even though your outline is correct, even if Sagat is played clemently he deals massive damage. Damage that doesn't warrant his flexibility. So even though someone can suck they can render a very hard bargain to a skilled more apt player. When it doesn't seem to matter is when one of these Street Fighter Kerogens fights against someone with 1300 to 2000 bp and gets owned. The people who are elite will do very well against the random Sagat but the people who are just another person will find themselves in a fix. I really don't mean this in an extreme but it can operate both ways. If he's stronger designed he's stronger designed. What complexity is there to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 If he's stronger designed he's stronger designed. What complexity is there to it? Prove it. Objectively. Can you? I certainly can't... certain characters deal/take more damage, sure, but as to the supremacy of their individual set of moves, that's something that's far more subjective, and goes to how that character is commonly employed. If you based tiers/strength of characters solely off of who was owning 2000BP players in the 1000BP range, I'm pretty sure Zangief would beat Sagat any day of the week... but again, still a guess. You'd need data mining access to PSN and XBL and a very strong knowledge of statistical analysis to make any of these claims with certitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I base what I say not only on my own experiences, but off of what pro players say as well. Take Darkesydephil for example. He is a pro SF player that is very high ranked on both Live and PSN *Though he has recently stopped playing and caring about psn matches* and competes frequently and places high at tournaments. During a lot of his videos, he states the same negative feelings about Sagat the a lot of others do. I put my personal bias aside a bit when I state my hate towards sagat. If I were going purely off of personal experience alone, I would be raging over Zangief as well because his grabs totally just rape Chun, but I know he isn't that broken and can be disabled by other characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 *Though he has recently stopped playing and caring about psn matches* so pro that he got over the game in a month yeah let's all care what this guy says Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 so pro that he got over the game in a month yeah let's all care what this guy says notice i said he plays both on psn AND live he plays on live exclusively now faggot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 exclusively haha he's too good for psn peons now professional gaming lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 you usualy troll really well but this is bad maybe you are tired go to sleep getting both ranks up is a chore so why blame a guy for just focusing on one system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I am not trolling professional gaming has and always will be a bunch of lol lol at butthurt about sagat lol at working hard to get up scores lol at tiers tiers tiers lol lol lol lol lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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