Gario

Holy God, I hate GXSCC. I think a better comparison would be something like this... Make chiptunes less like this... ... where it sounds like the composer is making neat tunes with a limited soundscape, and more like this... ... where it sounds like the composer couldn't make the music on any other medium. That track would probably even have trouble getting on OCR, since while it has parts that are amazing, it still sounds like there are large swathes that are still trying to 'make do' with what they're given. Hopefully that makes sense to everyone.

Hey Dark Ramyzer, glad you could share your music with us over here on OCR. Unfortunately, it seems you don't have much direction with this post other than 'Look at all my music', which people really don't enjoy doing in this forum - is there any remix/song in particular that you'd like the listeners to focus on, instead? You'll get more attention, that way, then you can link your main site to your profile & signature. Also, please don't spam the same message to multiple boards - that's not very considerate of the other members here. Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the site.

Hmm... It is a good question that I don't have a good answer for (I think the people discussing it right now are the right people to do so). Personally I think that chiptunes come pretty damn close to being acceptable to the OCR standards, already, and don't even need extra consideration; we just need more submissions. That's my humble opinion, so take that sentiment with a grain of salt and keep an ear on the judges & chiptune artists, if you want to know where things stand, now... Because I care, I think I'll look at your other post in some more detail and sum my thoughts, anyway. I believe that a chiptune could very well cover the soundscape appropriately and up to standards, actually. It would just be more difficult to do so than with an instrument (such as a piano or guitar) that is designed for more flexible polyphonic writing. The chiptune is actually a unique beast in that area in that it CAN handle polyphony - just not that much of it, if it's going to be pure. It's tough, but using programming tricks, polyphony, rapid fire timbre changes and the like it's entirely possible to give the chiptune a full sound (I mean, just listen to some of the stuff posted earlier...). Hmm... When the judges are looking for good production values, they're looking for clean recordings (or decent samples, pending on what you're using), clear mixing (no clipping, no overcrowding, no muddiness, etc.), and a soundscape that doesn't sound too hollow (panning, whether or not the frequencies are properly spread, etc.). Then there's the issue of output clarity (does the file sound like it's been run through as a lower quality Mp3, or something?). That's really it, in terms of raw production. The only hurdles that chiptunes hit are soundscape issues, as it's really almost impossible to have poor samples (they're chiptunes, after all), and it's trivial to have a clean mix. It's difficult to fill the space, though, and remain a purist, so really good artists use tricks with the hardware to mimic reverb, polyphony, etc. to create a full soundscape. On top of that, there are compositional issues that come up - since this is OCR, the arrangements need to both deviate from the source and be recognizable, at the same time. When a device needs to use it's precious channels to imitate special effects it can be tricky to have a creative arrangement behind it, as well. Again, though, the artists that are discussing this topic have already shown their power to arrange is not hindered by these factors, so while it's tough, it's not inconceivable. I believe that a really good chiptune track could easily pass the panel (barring Espergirl - I'm still on the side that the track should've passed, but that's personal opinion), as the things that you requested (as well as the things that I've brought up) can be done in a chiptune without any outside tampering. Given what people have said in this thread (and from seeing people play their gameboys at MAGfest), I think the answer is objectively 'yes'. Er, what? I believe it would be very, VERY hard to get a solo monophonic instrumental onto this site because that would be very difficult to fill the soundscape with - easily more difficult than getting a chiptune onto the site. When you have an ensemble of the instruments then you'd easily solve the problem (it would work for the gameboys, too, most likely). That's irrelevant, though, as people are talking about pure chiptunes - implying that they're staying within the limits of a single machine. Hmmm... this is where I think you're making a straw man. I don't think any instrument is treated as special based on it's 'tradition', but because they can fulfill the requirements that I listed above without a problem, and that doesn't really apply to most solo instruments (only piano and guitar, really). Pull up a remix that uses a solo monophonic instrument (I don't care which instrument, as long as it's monophonic). I don't think one exists because they can't possibly create a thick enough soundscape to cover the basic requirements of the site. Pure chiptunes are actually one of very few potentially viable instruments that could fulfill OCR's requirements, so actually they're in a better position than most solo instruments. You should be upset that there isn't a Marimba remix, yet - that's a polyphonic instrument that doesn't have any solo love on OCR, yet. Make it happen, DrumUltimA. Ensembles fulfill the requirements in question, obviously, but then we're talking about ensembles of more than one instrument and that's not even close to comparable to pure chiptunes. We have an entire subgenre that's dedicated to songs that use chiptunes amid other instruments and sounds (Halc, Chthonic, hell, myself), so it should be pretty obvious that chiptunes in an ensemble are perfectly acceptable and don't need any further special treatment. Haha, well that IS a can of awesome worm sauce, but I don't think that can be covered in this thread very easily. Aw shit, man, y'know you'd just come crawling back to bed with me eventually, man. Don't be hatin' like that, you know you don't mean it.

I read through what you had to say, and I have to mention that chiptunes are not banned from OCR, so to claim such is to make a straw man argument. There hasn't been an example of one passing because the claim is that it's very tough to get a pure chiptune to 'production levels' of other songs (even other chiptune artists agree with this sentiment). Sorry, but your argument really doesn't have bearing on the discussion. The debate is whether or not the OCR judges should consider chiptunes on a different level when it comes to the site's production standards. Frankly, I think there's some really freakin' good chiptune music out there already (even pure chiptunes) that would be accepted onto OCR if they were instead arrangements of VG music, but there's been a stigma on them for so long that the really good artists have avoided making chiptune music for the site. That's where I sit on it, anyway - there technically isn't an issue with chiptune discrimination; rather, it's that there's no extra consideration for chiptune submissions that should be considered with the submissions (at least, that's what I'm pulling from the arguments).

I like this post. Too bad that doesn't help get the album out sooner, but I do like the tone and attitude of this post.

Unless that would lead to infringement, as it would. Arrangements aren't products that the artists here have a right to sell, so OCR won't ever cross that line. And no, asking people to like a FB site isn't hostile, but lashing out on the directors of the site would be. Cool your jets a little bit, take a deep breath and calm yourself; while it's a hell of a compliment that people are waiting this desperately for the album, going off the handle just poisons the product for not only yourself but for those around you.

Er, actually other instruments are held to the same standard. That's kind of the point being made - you're quite literally asking the site to lower it's expectations when it comes to chiptunes, which even I can't agree with since this isn't a site solely dedicated to chiptunes (even though I love chiptunes and would actually like to see some pure chips appear on the site). It's hard for chiptunes to meet this standard on their own, but that's the standard in place - that much I have to respect. Yes, it takes less compositional talent to make other instruments to sound that good, but who outside of chiptune affectionatos are going to care about that? It takes a hell of a lot of work to make chiptunes into something that most people would enjoy outside of the fact that they're chiptunes; that's the nature of the beast. The reason you need to be at the 99.9% range of talent when it comes to chiptunes is because it is physically more difficult for chiptunes to achieve this standard. Piano, for example, is comparatively a breeze to achieve a decent sound with - you hammer the notes, use some pedal, touch it up in a DAW (and even fix some missed notes, if you input it with a sequencer) and presto, you have a decent sounding mix. It's not easy to make something sound decent, sure, but it's technically one hell of a lot easier to do so with that instrument than with chiptunes. What is merely decent in terms of other instruments is incredibly difficult to achieve for chiptunes in terms or production quality, so naturally only the absolute best would have a chance at passing the production bar. It isn't a class war, here - it's simply a matter of physical handicaps that occur with the use of chiptunes. Which you at the very least, Shnab, already soar past, so I honestly would just want to see if something you submit today would pass if you tried to get it posted. The thing that was a borderline rejection was from six years ago, and even you admit that you're far better than that today, so frankly why not try to set a new precedent? That's the one thing I'm hoping comes from this thread; prove the judges wrong and hit them with a mix that they just have to pass due to it's awesomeness...

I don't think that's a fair comparison, because in the case of the flute and bongos you'd need to tweak the recording equipment, the EQ, the reverb, etc., until it sounded great. In the case of absolutely pure NSF files you not only don't mess with many of these things, you can't mess with these things and remain a purist. Instead you use polyphony and other cool techniques to achieve these effects, but the point remains that chiptunes are at a disadvantage because of that. It's not just a channel limitation, it's a limitation on the very fabrics of the production, and it's not a trivial one, either. While I personally didn't agree with the Espergirl decision made back in 2006 (even if today Shnabubula could blow it out of the water, I still think that held enough kickass to pass, but that's just me), I can sympathize with what their point was. It's not only channel and timbre limitations that they need to deal with - it's the lack of outside effects, limiters, compressors, EQ, etc., that they would be compared against if the chiptune was a pure chiptune. These are all very nice things that could make the music sound clearer and more thick, so the chiptune would really need to compensate for that in it's arrangement tricks and electronic sorcery. Which is entirely possible, by the way. From my understanding, though, people haven't submit too many chiptune tracks because it's believed that the site will never ever accept them, when I don't think that's the case. It's just that when competing with music that doesn't limit itself in such a fashion it's tough to get it up to an objectively amazing standard. Even chiptune artists should agree that it's a monumental task to get a chiptune to sound as good in production as, say, a Deadmau5 track or something. I think it's still possible, but damn difficult.

For the record, Zircon YES'd Espergirl back in the day. Just sayin', is all. One thing that would be really interesting to see would be a bunch of pure chiptune artists flooding the submissions mailbox with incredible chiptune remixes to prove to everyone that they really do sound excellent on their own. I suspect that something would pass through, considering how objectively amazing some chiptune tracks sound. That would likely force OCR to post something, not because of popularity or the like but because the music actually holds up to the standard that's in place. I would be upset if they were rejected just because they're chiptunes, but I don't think that was the case. Personally, I'd like to see some glorious chiptune arrangements pass, and I think some of the talent that's been posting in here could make it happen.

Yeah, I know - people are going to be so freakin' pissed at me when I knock Zircon out of the compo.

... oh hey, Zircon, how're you doin'? Oh God, this source sounds like MM2 for the GB. You're evil, you know that? Hey, quick question, DS - if I find someone outside of the compo to help me out by providing an instrument or something, would that be allowed or am I on my own?

Oh doh, sorry about that - in that case, best of luck, man. And yes, SuperiorX has been advertising the Sonic compo for months, now, Brandon - it should get moving around May, iirc.

You won't have to worry about it - you're not eligible for this compo, as DS put a 'remixers only' restriction this time due to Capcom's desire to use the tracks for promotional purposes. Sorry, you'll have to wait for the next compo (which is the Sonic one, I suppose).

I honestly would give it an honest shot, but I don't have 39$. Their advertisement methods are hilarious (holy crap that chart is truly amazing), but I'm not entirely convinced that their product is that horrible, given the price their selling it at. It looks pretty good for a novice at that price range, actually.

Alrighty, giving this some mod-review love. MOD REVIEW I wasn't feeling the intro, there. It wasn't horrible, objectively, but it didn't feel like it complimented the rest of the track well enough (mostly due to it's length). The pad sweeping into the theme worked pretty well, though. I suggest cutting straight to 0:19 (with perhaps a little more activity - those pads still go on for a little too long on their own) and going from there, for the sake of balancing the track. After the 0:47 mark, things kick it up to the beat that holds for most of the track. The production is alright (though the soundscape is plain - sounds like Unreal, in that department). The beat and bass motions virtually don't change for most of the track until the ending at 3:57, save for a few fills and break downs. This is a problem, as it leads to the entire track sounding repetitive. Change up the bass synth patterns (not the pad, though, per se) from time to time, or let them drop out in favor for another instrument combination, or something. I'm not entirely convince with the drums in this track - they come off as boring, for the most part. Change up the beat, give the snare some more power, have some more hi hat work, more cowbell... something to spice it up. They sound phoned in, as it is - be more creative with your drums, and use some more poignant sounds for the snare. I have to admit, I really like the unreal synths you use throughout the track, giving it the lo-fi feel, throughout. I would like to see some of these effects stay (like 2:54, for example - that was awesome). I'm going to need some back up on this (as my speakers are being annoying and not working, atm - I'm using headphones, here), but I feel like this song has been low passed, or something, taking away a lot of the energy that could be in this track. That could be me, YT or an actual issue with the track, though, so hopefully someone else will comment on that for me. Listening to the sources, you've got them there pretty clearly. I have a feeling that this is leaning on being a little too conservative, though - save for the intro, it sounds like you run through the themes pretty straight. I like what you have here, despite my issues with it. The Unreal flavor is fitting and well pulled off, the production is not offensive and the overall chill ass mood is great. The conservative nature of the track, lengthy intro, repetitive arrangement and weak drums / repetitive bass-y synth will drag this track down, if it goes to the J's. Alright, I hope this helps set you on the right course.

No, what I don't understand is why people are upset about this and yet are just fine with regular DLC. It's fundamentally the same thing, yet this is throwing people off the handle, for some reason...? I don't think anyone has a convincing argument yet that this is any different than regular DLC, save for the fact that it's located in a different spot (that is, on the disc). So when some company has some unlockable extras online available as DLC content, does that send a community into a panic? Not normally, but when that same content is on the disc and yet is purchased in exactly the same way, suddenly people get infuriated? You guys aren't making any sense. From where I stand, it all sounds like some false sense of entitlement - it's on the disc so for some reason you now should be able to access it for free. What is anyone solving by thinking like this? I suppose the easiest solution for companies is to just remove the material from the discs and sell it as regular DLC content again, but then you're back at square one (actually, you're slightly worse off, since now you'd need to D/L the material, there might be compatibility issues, etc., that on-disc DLC would've solved). You're not going to get publishers to produce the content that they planned on customers paying extra for free, so the only other step is a step backwards for everybody. Unless the content is game breaking, as mentioned before, then people really shouldn't get flared up about the practice. Of course, if the content was game breaking in some form then it would be a problem whether it was on-disc or regular DLC, so that's a completely moot point. Maybe I should rephrase my question: what exactly is the problem inherent to on-disc DLC that isn't a problem with regular DLC?

I don't really see why not, save for the fact that we as customers want the most bang for our buck (which would be nice, but isn't wrong of them to withhold from the customer if they want to). Beside that, the easy compatibility work around makes good sense. I don't see what the problem with on disc DLC is. If the DLC were available as off disc downloadable content instead, would it be as upsetting? I don't think the fact that it's sealed away on the disc means that it's the customer's right to have immediate access to it unless the creator/publisher says that it is any more than if the material is obtained from the web as DLC.

Yeah, go submit some of your GMRB music tonight and you'd probably be qualified by tomorrow, Txai.

There are no women on the internet, you fool.

You've still got Clown Man to cover.

Urgh, not sure if I will be able to do this, but I think I'd regret it if I didn't join in - if Capcom is gonna pimp this out then I better make some time for it. (from Street Fighter II) (from Street Fighter II) (from Street Fighter II) (from ... I think you guys get the idea, it's the only one I've ever played) (Fuck, do I even need to link that one?)

That's... actually a valid point.

Well, I'm impressed as to how close to the original it is. That's a really tough source to figure out by ear, for sure. Kudos for that.

Then you, my friend, is the best judge of it because that was the whole point. It should NOT feel like a slideshow if you are not familiar with the sources. Alright, then let me give it another source-blind listen and give you my thoughts. *listening* Sorry, it's not COMPLETELY blind, but asking a VGM nerd to not recognize Wily 2-1 is like asking a Star Wars buff to not know the Darth Vader / Luke Skywalker spoiler (y'know, that he's his father)... it's just not possible. Anyway, from 0:00 to 1:58 I felt it was very cohesive - things seemed to lead from one motif to another seemlessly, and the change up right after was a nice touch. However, due to the material it does sound like the first half and the second half are not connected. I suspect that this is less due to the integration of themes (when I heard the Wily bits the integration was actually well done) and more to do with the fact that there is no form to the song - it does sound like one long stream of ideas rather than bite sized chunks of music. Funny thing about remixes is that most of the time form is not an issue at all, since the source itself will provide a nice form to follow. When using multiple varying themes it gets dicey, though, since following one source will come at the cost of another source getting the proper recognition. Thus, in order to make a song using more than two or three sources you need to establish a form outside of the sources and make the music around that. I don't mean to jack the thread with this, but I have an example of a track with many sources where I do just that. There was absolutely no way the song was going to sound cohesive otherwise - with that many sources, I needed to establish a form to follow outside of the sources (I went with a variation of a Rondo, by the way - ABACA). I believe the issue the judges are hearing (and one I heard, too, despite not knowing what most of the sources were) was that it was pretty formless - it just moved from one idea to another without properly establishing the idea throughout. I'm not surprised that this single detail could merit a 'NO' from the judges - the foundation of a piece is very important in keeping a listener's attention, so if that's iffy to a judge then I don't think anything else will bring it back. It's pretty fundamental. If you want to give it another go at any time, I personally suggest using the Wily section as a middle section, not the ending, as it sounds foreign as an ending. Instead, bring back the material from the first section (that is, 0:00 - 1:58... probably the latter half of it) and end on that idea (while integrating ideas from Wily and the other sources, to keep it fresh and interesting). Yes, this means that the song will be longer, but it will feel like a cohesive idea rather than something formless. BTW, my suggestion simply turns your track into more of an ABA form - if you don't want to follow my suggestion yet still want to give it some work, feel free to experiment with other formal ideas and see what could work for you. Well, that was a wordy post on almost a single idea. I hope it's pretty clear, though.

Hmm... well, to their credit, they really weren't in agreement, either. You presented a case that is damn close to the border, here, so I don't think it could've been predicted either way. I'd need to get familiar with the sources, myself, but if what is claimed is true about the slideshow effect then I'd say there is some validity to their claims. It looks like it was a tough choice for them, though - some of em' might even agree with your sentiments. Sorry your track didn't pass.