Gario

I hear you. However, once you realize that the slow walking graphics go with the music and pretend that the character is grooving to the beats it becomes not only bearable, but even kind of awesome, in it's own right.

Damn, I was actually kind of excited to go up against Zircon, too. It doesn't feel right to advance by default... Oh well, I get to advance, anyway, so I guess I can't complain much.

He has to convert everyone's track into a proper Mp3, so there's more work for him this time around than there normally is. Also, he probably has to set up the social group for us to vote in, make the threads, etc., so be patient - he'll get it done shortly, I'm sure. That being said, I wonder if Zircon subbed his track on time...

Sorry, upload took 40 minutes. Sending you file now.

Alriiiight, time to upload. Fuck, I need to upload a WAV. This is going to take a while - I have the file, DS, it'll be in your inbox as soon as the upload is done.

Less than three hours to finish this... I think I can handle it. Soon it'll be time to see if I can smoke Zircon in the first round of the compo. Worst case scenario I lose but still produce a mix that was intended to compete with Zircon's track, so I suppose it's win-win for everyone, in the end (well, except for me - I lose if I don't win, but whatever ).

Meteo speaks the truth - that's why he's got me completely beat, in terms of number of birthday threads he has for himself. Oh yeah, and happy birthday, man.

Well, we don't like to boast...

Go play Diablo 2. Hell, go play Diablo 1, too. The series actually has a pretty rich lore, so you'd be missing out on half the fun of the third game if you play it without having played the other games.

Alright, you're just being an idiot, now. You do know that in those posts you proved exactly what I said, right? If I didn't know any better I would say you're just trolling me, with that. Urgh, back to the original statement. That is not a statement on production, the give away term being 'context', as that rarely has any application to production values. That is a statement on instrument choice (like telling someone that the person should swap, say, an oboe sound for a clarinet), which is not a production issue. Ever. With this misunderstanding, the needless push against chiptune artists and the insistence that Espergirl is what people are upset about, you're completely missing the ball so hard in this thread. Seriously, before you post in here again slowly read the posts in this thread (as well as in the links provided throughout) and try to understand what everyone is talking about. Not that it even matters because the issues have been resolved, anyway, but you're seriously coming in from left field in nearly every aspect you've posted on, making an ass out of yourself all along the way. Oh yeah, and making back handed remarks against people is not only petty; it's downright insulting. I'd suggest you break that habit, as it only serves to piss people off.

You know you're repeatedly sticking your foot in your mouth, right? I never said the sound of an instrument doesn't qualify as a production issue, I said the choice of an instrument is purely an arrangement issue. Pure waveforms like squares, sines, triangles, saws, etc., are actually very clean and usable, in terms of sample quality (which is the only 'production issue' that a sample can have). If you don't like the sound of an instrument in a song and the sample is clean then the issue is compositional, not production. You think you're talking about one thing when you're talking about another. Think about it and try again.

Hmm, there are plenty of people on here that mix only using what's available on FL Studio. I mean, there's a mixer window in your program, right? That's all you need to mix with - that represents all the options that you'd have on mixing hardware. You just need to learn how to use it, is all. I think Zircon talks about it in this tutorial (actually, all his tutorials are pretty good - you should check them out sometime). In short, FL Studios has all the tools you need to mix the track properly - you just need to get used to the program and learn all the nuances with it.

Yeah, no. People have tried and were rejected (and by the sound of it, repeatedly). People don't continue an action once they hit an insurmountable brick wall because it is a waste of their time, and the people that do are generally considered 'stupid' (since they hit an insurmountable brick wall). Yeah... but your opinion on the triangle wave is subjective and had nothing to do with production (instrument choices are purely arrangement choices). That is actually not a call the the judges should make, and that in fact isn't what bothered them about that remix. Stop that. You seem to be repeatedly missing the point. I know you're not stupid, but right now you're ignoring what plenty of people have been saying - this is not about that particular mix. It's about what was said in the evaluation of that remix. As was pointed out by Rush Jet (as well as myself), DjP pretty explicitly stated that he would not be accepting chiptune remixes. That is the point that's being addressed. As said above (as well as in other posts), this isn't about a single song, but about a statement that was said by the head of the site. If DjP explicitly said that he wouldn't accept electronic music (perish the thought) then wouldn't it be really, really stupid for people to continue to submit electronic music? You're not challenging a consensus in that case; rather you're just knowingly running yourself into a brick wall. It's a waste of your time, at that point. You're kind of saying the community needs to change their attitude when both the community AND the staff needed to come to a consensus on the issue. Vilifying the artists after the fact when both parties were at fault is really a fruitless endeavor - all you're going to do is get people from both sides upset at you over it.

Actually, in that decision it really sounds like the opposite was true (whether or not that was the intention is different, but that's precisely how it came across). More specifically... It can be read as more than one thing, but chiptune artists have read that as meaning 'No chiptunes because they CANNOT pass the standard of quality', so they silently accepted that and stopped wasting their energy on OCR. It takes a lot of work to make a pure chiptune, so making chiptunes with OCR's arrangement standards in mind when you know it's not going to be accepted is a waste of considerable time and energy. This is the precedent that I was talking about, specifically - DjP came down and laid the law. This has been taken to mean that Chiptunes are not allowed to be posted on OCR, so people didn't bother to try. Obviously all of the judges and DjP have tried to correct that sentiment throughout this thread (not just Darkesword, as you seem to think, for some reason), but based on that comment hopefully you can see why chiptune artists didn't think it was worth the effort to attempt it. Hopefully, since this thread has discussed the topic heavily more artists will be willing to give it a shot again and break the misconception that chiptunes cannot be accepted onto OCR. As for the song itself, go listen to it. It's been linked on here before, but here's the link to it again. It's pretty fucking good - listening to it might give you some idea as to why people thought that if that couldn't pass then nothing would be able to. Keep in mind that this was made in 2006, so judge it accordingly.

I honestly don't know where you get that sentiment from - seriously, this have little to do with Shnabubula and/or his chiptune arrangements. I suggest you re-read what I posted and think about what it means to "set a precedent" (which the decision on that track certainly did) and how that could possibly be relevant in a thread about how OCR is seen as being biased against chiptunes.

Because Espergirl created a precedent against chiptunes that has stuck with the site for six years, now. It is the last known chiptune track to be submit to the site (for most people, anyway - only the J's really know if more have been sent), and it was a very well done track, in terms of chiptunes - arguably good enough for the sake of posting, back then. I don't think it's important for a track that old to be posted now (the sites standards have changed to the point where the track probably WOULDN'T pass, now), but the rejection of that track, along with DjP's reasoning behind it back then, virtually stopped chiptune artists from submitting their material. That is the significance of that song - it's not the status of the music itself that matters, at this point, but the precedent that people want to change (and in that regard I'm all for it, personally).

In the absolutely worse case scenario you could D/L the songs individually, if the zip and torrent don't cover it for you.

Hmm... I like it. The guitar work is very nice, and the whole ensemble working together meshes together perfectly. Personally, I'd like to see something like this done where there are no instruments - just a pure classical guitar ensemble. Percussion is done with the guitar (using the body for the beat, and such), the violin is done with the guitar instead, etc. You've got something so close to that anyway that I could hear that working, so give it some thought.

Oh hey there, man. Yeah, I actually heard the discussion behind this mix - there's certainly a mixed opinion, there. Well, since you're here, these are my thoughts on the track. The arrangement is actually pretty good. I thought that the lead into the Sonic 2's Emerald Hill zone was excellent, and bookending it with Sonic's Green Hill zone was perfect - that makes for a great overall structure to follow. The synth solos were also a nice touch. It could be better, from a OCR standpoint, seeing that when the source is in there it's pretty much stated verbatim. While repeating something verbatim isn't bad, you do it a little too much in this track; at 2:48, for example, you repeat the same ideas as you did earlier in the piece. People have heard this idea before, there's no reason not to really have fun with the melody. The FO ending is also a bit of a cop-out ending - run through the Sonic 1 idea one more time with some improvisation and embellishment and then end the song with something conclusive. Right now it sounds as if it's incomplete. That section that you feel isn't right is different from the source. The guitar part should be a minor sixth lower (or a major third higher) than it is right now match the source. Personally I don't mind it, actually, but you didn't like it so that's how to correct it. The mixing is pretty abysmal. I know there are good ideas in this, but the drums drown everything in a sea of crashes that just cut everything out. The melodies are hidden behind the guitar rhythms, and the texture bits that should be more in the background often pierce instead. The mixing is one of the biggest issues that this track holds, right now. The samples are certainly a bit on the plain side, and I'm the wrong person to ask about getting better samples (I use Reason, so I don't need to use different synths and such). However, there are places on here that could help you find more samples (more free samples, too, I'm sure), and plenty of people that know where else to look, so feel free to ask around and look for more tools for your music. There are also plenty of people on here that love to work on arrangements with others, so if you want a particular instrument or something for someone to supply for you then feel free and search for members that specialize in the instrument in question, log on frequently AND are willing to collaborate - you might just find someone who's willing to give your mix something special. Those are my thoughts on your mix - arrangement could use a little work, the samples are plain, but most importantly the mixing buries your music to almost make it unlistenable, so first and foremost fix the mixing so the music and soundscape are clear. Hopefully that sends you in the right direction. EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't forget to put the song you're arranging in your title + source in your post. It makes things easier for people who want to comment on your track.

Holy God, I hate GXSCC. I think a better comparison would be something like this... Make chiptunes less like this... ... where it sounds like the composer is making neat tunes with a limited soundscape, and more like this... ... where it sounds like the composer couldn't make the music on any other medium. That track would probably even have trouble getting on OCR, since while it has parts that are amazing, it still sounds like there are large swathes that are still trying to 'make do' with what they're given. Hopefully that makes sense to everyone.

Hey Dark Ramyzer, glad you could share your music with us over here on OCR. Unfortunately, it seems you don't have much direction with this post other than 'Look at all my music', which people really don't enjoy doing in this forum - is there any remix/song in particular that you'd like the listeners to focus on, instead? You'll get more attention, that way, then you can link your main site to your profile & signature. Also, please don't spam the same message to multiple boards - that's not very considerate of the other members here. Thanks, and I hope you enjoy the site.

Hmm... It is a good question that I don't have a good answer for (I think the people discussing it right now are the right people to do so). Personally I think that chiptunes come pretty damn close to being acceptable to the OCR standards, already, and don't even need extra consideration; we just need more submissions. That's my humble opinion, so take that sentiment with a grain of salt and keep an ear on the judges & chiptune artists, if you want to know where things stand, now... Because I care, I think I'll look at your other post in some more detail and sum my thoughts, anyway. I believe that a chiptune could very well cover the soundscape appropriately and up to standards, actually. It would just be more difficult to do so than with an instrument (such as a piano or guitar) that is designed for more flexible polyphonic writing. The chiptune is actually a unique beast in that area in that it CAN handle polyphony - just not that much of it, if it's going to be pure. It's tough, but using programming tricks, polyphony, rapid fire timbre changes and the like it's entirely possible to give the chiptune a full sound (I mean, just listen to some of the stuff posted earlier...). Hmm... When the judges are looking for good production values, they're looking for clean recordings (or decent samples, pending on what you're using), clear mixing (no clipping, no overcrowding, no muddiness, etc.), and a soundscape that doesn't sound too hollow (panning, whether or not the frequencies are properly spread, etc.). Then there's the issue of output clarity (does the file sound like it's been run through as a lower quality Mp3, or something?). That's really it, in terms of raw production. The only hurdles that chiptunes hit are soundscape issues, as it's really almost impossible to have poor samples (they're chiptunes, after all), and it's trivial to have a clean mix. It's difficult to fill the space, though, and remain a purist, so really good artists use tricks with the hardware to mimic reverb, polyphony, etc. to create a full soundscape. On top of that, there are compositional issues that come up - since this is OCR, the arrangements need to both deviate from the source and be recognizable, at the same time. When a device needs to use it's precious channels to imitate special effects it can be tricky to have a creative arrangement behind it, as well. Again, though, the artists that are discussing this topic have already shown their power to arrange is not hindered by these factors, so while it's tough, it's not inconceivable. I believe that a really good chiptune track could easily pass the panel (barring Espergirl - I'm still on the side that the track should've passed, but that's personal opinion), as the things that you requested (as well as the things that I've brought up) can be done in a chiptune without any outside tampering. Given what people have said in this thread (and from seeing people play their gameboys at MAGfest), I think the answer is objectively 'yes'. Er, what? I believe it would be very, VERY hard to get a solo monophonic instrumental onto this site because that would be very difficult to fill the soundscape with - easily more difficult than getting a chiptune onto the site. When you have an ensemble of the instruments then you'd easily solve the problem (it would work for the gameboys, too, most likely). That's irrelevant, though, as people are talking about pure chiptunes - implying that they're staying within the limits of a single machine. Hmmm... this is where I think you're making a straw man. I don't think any instrument is treated as special based on it's 'tradition', but because they can fulfill the requirements that I listed above without a problem, and that doesn't really apply to most solo instruments (only piano and guitar, really). Pull up a remix that uses a solo monophonic instrument (I don't care which instrument, as long as it's monophonic). I don't think one exists because they can't possibly create a thick enough soundscape to cover the basic requirements of the site. Pure chiptunes are actually one of very few potentially viable instruments that could fulfill OCR's requirements, so actually they're in a better position than most solo instruments. You should be upset that there isn't a Marimba remix, yet - that's a polyphonic instrument that doesn't have any solo love on OCR, yet. Make it happen, DrumUltimA. Ensembles fulfill the requirements in question, obviously, but then we're talking about ensembles of more than one instrument and that's not even close to comparable to pure chiptunes. We have an entire subgenre that's dedicated to songs that use chiptunes amid other instruments and sounds (Halc, Chthonic, hell, myself), so it should be pretty obvious that chiptunes in an ensemble are perfectly acceptable and don't need any further special treatment. Haha, well that IS a can of awesome worm sauce, but I don't think that can be covered in this thread very easily. Aw shit, man, y'know you'd just come crawling back to bed with me eventually, man. Don't be hatin' like that, you know you don't mean it.

I read through what you had to say, and I have to mention that chiptunes are not banned from OCR, so to claim such is to make a straw man argument. There hasn't been an example of one passing because the claim is that it's very tough to get a pure chiptune to 'production levels' of other songs (even other chiptune artists agree with this sentiment). Sorry, but your argument really doesn't have bearing on the discussion. The debate is whether or not the OCR judges should consider chiptunes on a different level when it comes to the site's production standards. Frankly, I think there's some really freakin' good chiptune music out there already (even pure chiptunes) that would be accepted onto OCR if they were instead arrangements of VG music, but there's been a stigma on them for so long that the really good artists have avoided making chiptune music for the site. That's where I sit on it, anyway - there technically isn't an issue with chiptune discrimination; rather, it's that there's no extra consideration for chiptune submissions that should be considered with the submissions (at least, that's what I'm pulling from the arguments).

I like this post. Too bad that doesn't help get the album out sooner, but I do like the tone and attitude of this post.

Unless that would lead to infringement, as it would. Arrangements aren't products that the artists here have a right to sell, so OCR won't ever cross that line. And no, asking people to like a FB site isn't hostile, but lashing out on the directors of the site would be. Cool your jets a little bit, take a deep breath and calm yourself; while it's a hell of a compliment that people are waiting this desperately for the album, going off the handle just poisons the product for not only yourself but for those around you.