The Coop

Now you're just arguing semantics. You know as well as I that both terms can easily refer to the same types of games I honestly don't see why it mystifies you, considering what I've said thus far. The way things were in the 8bit and 16bit era got just as old at times as the current crop of stuff, since the mature and more realistic worlds were few and far between in relation to everything else being put out at the time. Having that become the norm again, with realism and such being put into the current "odd" and "oddball" games' role, isn't what I would wish for. As I said, I'd rather have a balance of the two. Oldschool zaniness in story, graphics and sound, and modern day realism in the same things... both getting an equal share on the shelves. I did read your post. Here's your post that I responded to... You have to cut me some slack since the above quote I was going off of doesn't say some of the things you said you were talking about in it. If it had, I wouldn't have been discussing those points since we seem to have similar views on them (more plausible to make games in the past single handedly, consoles being tougher to program for today over back then, modern consoles usually needing bigger dev teams for their games). However, where we seem to differ, is on the "widely distributed" thing. With the Internet as it is today, those small indie companies can distribute their games worldwide without the need of a big publishing giant (and its criteria). This is thanks to downloadable purchases, and on-line shops that deal regularly with the homebrew scene (here and abroad). And with XBox Live, Sony's and Nintendo's online dealies, and others getting into the whole homebrew thing with their original on-line offerings, those indie companies have about as good a chance at getting their work into the public eye as before. Sure, it doesn't get the exposure in stuff like mainstream magazines/websites and such, but it's not exactly hidden either. Also, I quoted that final sentence earlier, and brought up the games I did, for this simple reason... I don't see a game being made by a single person (or small dev team), and having it become popular with modern gamers, as unlikely. I see it as still quite possible. It doesn't take a big budget with a big publisher to make a great game and get it noticed. It takes a good dev team, and the means to get it easily into peoples' hands. And these days, there are more ways to do that. I know some of that's idealistic, and people are likely going to pick it apart with "pie in the sky" and "wishful thinking" commentary. But considering all the homebrew games I've heard about just from people talking about them on-line in and real life over the years, I feel there's truth in it Yeah, the homebrew scene was comparatively bigger and more influential back then. That's something else we agree on. I think that's because of the size of the gaming market at that time. The gaming world has exploded both as a hobby, and as a business, since then. However, I also feel that the homebrew world is still churning away at roughly the same level it was then (perhaps more so in some ways). It just looks lessened because everything around it got so big.

You said it yourself... He wants the oddball games and scenarios to become the norm, not the exception. In the 8bit and 16bit days, a good number of people wanted to be treated to more adult, or grown up stories, because most of what was out there was "silly" with odd tales about hedgehogs, plummers, and guys fighting old horror movie monsters. They didn't want to always be treated like kids when it came to game content. Now, those same people want to be treated to those oddball tales, because most of what's out there is realistic stuff. They went from one end of the spectrum to the other. If this guy wanted a nice balance of the two, then he would have been pining for the 32bit era, up to about the Dreamcast, where oddness and reality were pretty balanced overall. We got the realism and the outlandish in nice healthy doses. Instead, he was talking solely about the 8bit and 16bit eras, which were dominated by what he's after. That was the norm he liked, when realism "had its place" as he'd put it, but wasn't the dominant aspect in gaming. He specifically pointed to the PS1 era (and the gamers it brought in) as being when the game traits he longs for started going out the window. So, I can't help but think he desires realism in game scenarios to go onto the back burner like the old days, rather than strike a balance between the two sides. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how his rant comes off to me. You know the Dreamcast game Last Hope which was released last year? It was basically created by two people. Should I even bring up Cave Story, or the many homebrew games that have either a very small staff, or just one person behind their creation? They may not get worldwide physical releases that PC games of old did, but they're easily findable for demos, and electronic purchase for download off of various sites. Some even do get physical distribution (mostly in Japan or Europe, but still). The problem is, like the big staff titles (and PC stuff of old), not all of them are very good, and some of that comes from only having one or two people do everything from artistic and gameplay choices, to graphics and music. The small staff scene may have shifted, but it's still there. Also, remember that in the late 70s, games weren't nearly as complicated as they are now. Top of the line graphics were so simplistic, and the coding so basic, that it was very easy to have one person do everything. In the 80s, the better resolutions and pixel capabilities still weren't too bad, so having one to five guys do everything was still very doable. These days, having one person be able to code the graphics, music, algorithms and such is not nearly as feasible... not because gamers demand more, but because the consoles are much more complicated. Perhaps that's why the PC homebrew scene is doing so well. As far as PCs have come, they're the most accessible medium to make a game on. Between things like Flash's Action Script, the infamous Java and Java Script, C++, and even those game making programs, you can become a one man army in the PC gaming world... as long as you have graphical and musical capabilities too

Something tells me he'd be bitching about all the goofy, quirky games if they were the norm. He strikes me as the "never happy" type of gamer, where the grass is always greener at some other point in time... and as a possible Nintendo fanboy (since a lot of his praising is for Nintendo-only games, systems, and people). That last part's not a slam, just an observation. And keep in mind zircon, when video games were first developing on consoles, it was a lot easier to just make worlds be bright and colorful, with oddly shaped characters. Doing realistic stuff didn't come easily with the systems and their capabilities. Once 16bit hit, realism became more feasible. Now, we can create damn near photo-realistic worlds and people. So, that's where more of the focus is. A lot of gamers kept whining about wanting more realism, and now they're getting it. But, I think once game makers get this "real world" phase out of their system, then we'll see them going all over the place in game design regularly again. Right now though, "real world" is the flavor of the day, so you'll just have to dig through the shelves until then. Oh, and did this guy's rant remind anyone else of the whole "hardcore vs mainstream" attitude?

This guy doesn't cover any ground that hasn't been discussed here many times over the years, or in issues of GameFan back in the 90s ("another brown game on PS1" was their thing). However, if he wants to address creative design (or the lack thereof), then perhaps he should have used better examples of games that broke the proverbial mold besides the ones in the last year. Games like Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath, where bizarre and personality-laden characters, and equally out there weapons, were the norm. Or perhaps Shadow of the Colossus, where cinematic battles and "HOLY SHI-!"-bosses ruled the roost. Or how about Black and White, Katamari Damacy, Okami, Glover, Giants Citizen Kabuto, and scores of other games over the last fifteen-plus years that thumbed their noses at what was the norm at that time, or went their own direction? He does a fine job lambasting the current generation of designers by pointing to 8bit titles and saying "See how goofy that shit looked and sounded? Why don't you try doing that next?", but he completely jumps over the instances of more modern day "goofy" ideas that did happen in-between now and the 8bit era. And it's this oversight that punches a nasty hole in his "no creativity these days" argument. He's complaining about the games that are being pimped as mainstream titles, while giving no voice to niche stuff that comes out all the time during a given year. What does he expect... the niche and goofy to become mainstream? If it did, would he then start griping about that two years down the road? The creativity is there, it just doesn't always get noticed by people. Maybe he should stop ranting, and try digging around on the store shelves a bit more (or the import shops). He might be surprised at what he comes across.

I don't know. A part of me knows that with Boll at the helm, this movie is going to utterly suck. But in the back of my mind, there's this little nagging question... Boll has been making horrid movies while trying to be mostly serious in atmosphere and mood. This movie looks to be nothing but darker, tongue-in-cheek action humor. What if it actually isn't completely horrid, but instead, is somewhat mildly entertaining (even if it's for the wrong reasons)? I know the chances are like .0001%, but...

Where's Wideruled and his man love MS Paint picture when you need him?

http://media.movies.ign.com/media/778/778320/vids_1.html Will the world have more fodder for their war? We'll know soon enough.

Good to know my brain hasn't been fried just yet. Once you've gotten the time to do your touch ups, let me know and I'll edit in the guitar for you if you'd like. Since the running animation is ten frames, I'll trim the charge animation down to two frames so if fits right in with the running loop. Then you can see if you like the way it works, or if the current guitar stuff needs to be scrapped. The same offer goes for the jumping sprites too

Actually, it wouldn't be too bad to do. The jumping and running animations would only need the torso adjusted. The head and legs could be left alone. I can edit the running animation this evening to show you if you'd like. The only thing that may cause a problem is that the current charging animation is six frames long. This might not sync well with the running animation if it's more than six frames. However, I can trim the charging animation down to two frames if needed without any problems. What makes it six frames now is that the energy going into the guitar is a three frame loop, while the strumming is a two frame loop. It takes six frames for them to even out. However, take out one energy frame, a couple quick adjustments, and POOF!... two frame charging loop By the way, did you post a finished running animation, or am I going nuts? I can't seem to find it, and I could swear I saw it.

The strumming part is supposed to be the idle animation as you continue to hold the button down after being fully charged. It lasts as long as you want it to in theory, and I put it there just so it could be seen. Once you see the power getting drawn in on the tip of the guitar, you'd be ready to fire. That whole process (at 30 fps), takes basically no longer than the MMX games do for their charging shots (about 1.5 seconds). I think it's actually a faster charge at 30fps. Also, after a charged shot, there's always a penalty of sorts... namely, not being able to charge up again or fire right away (for about a second I think). During that time, would be the disappearing animation for the guitar. Anyway, not making excuses or anything. I'm just trying to explain why animated it like I did. If you want me to remove some frames from the guitar appearance and vanishing, I can Edit: Bean- Got the PM and png files. Nice work on that character.

Thanks. If she's facing left, she'll just be mirrored like the old games did it. Making new sprites to be accurate is just too time consuming. Besides... Wingless decreed it a few pages back Anyway, he probably won't want them as animated gifs. I loaded that gif into Flash, set up as a movie symbol that played on one layer, and exported the thing. It was an swf file at 155kb. Nasty bit of inflation there, and it reminded me about how bitmaps increase the size of a Flash file. Sure, it's simple to add, and I'm happy to supply gifs if he wants them since making the gif animate in Flash and Image Ready are reasonably similar in a number of ways. But I fear it would crank up the file size of the finished product needlessly. Still, the offer's there. Out of curiosity, I went into Flash last night and animated that gif. I loaded in the background, the foreground, and an animated gif of the car bouncing along in place. I recreated that scene so it was identical in duration, frames per second (20fps in Flash = a frame delay of 0.05 on a gif), and how many frames it took for the car to go across the screen. The file size of that exported swf? 9.01 kb. Since it only used 8 bitmaps (the BG, the FG, and the six car frames), it kept the file size way down. I'm guessing that's how Wingless will want these background(s) sent to him... either as a finished fla or swf. Edit: One boss and BG huh? Puts a damper on the ideas I had for PPR and Off Topic backgrounds (I really liked the PPR idea ). Ah well. I'll finish up my current BG, and get that wrapped up for usage. As for the intro, I have an idea for it. I sat down and wrote up a little thing for the opening, and a convo with the turtle boss before the fight. I know the story aspect wasn't final or agreed upon by any means, but I wrote it down anyway. I can piece it together if no one has any objections about what I suggested for a story a few pages back. Could probably get it done by tomorrow night. And uh, thanks for sticking around for this Wingless. Bean- Once you're done touching up the turtle boss, throw it my way via PM. I'll see what I can come up with for animations and such.

Heh heh. The guy has balls. I now want a Micheal Bay vs Uwe Boll boxing match.

spuzz- I got that idea for the charge shot done... Thoughts? Artist beatings?

You were never out of it, Dafydd. By my "Can I be in it too?" comment, I was referring to what happened with the UnMod Comic, the UnMod Card Deck, and the UnMod RPG. Where you there once those projects were revealed and got going? If not, here's what basically happened. Once it was shown that someone like Ace! had a card, or that Smasha had a character in Razorman's comic, and that Antonio Pizza has a cameo in the game, everyone wanted a card or character in those projects. It got to the point of people complaining like "Why don't I have a card?" and "Where's my character?" constantly, which basically ruined the fun of it all because everyone was bitching about not being in it. So, that's why I suggested the idea to avoid that, by simply not including individual posters from OCR in this, and keeping Tan4 as the only "real" individual character. You're always welcome to contribute ideas, sprites, backgrounds and so forth dude. If you misunderstood what I wrote, then my apologies for not making it clearer. The only thing I was suggesting was that your idea of having the judges in the game as bosses didn't fit with where this seemed to be headed. spuzz and Bean have yet to comment on your judge rescue idea (I like it, but the extra work scares me ).

Rescue the judges, eh? Not a bad idea, though it would require more sprite making, which might not be to everyone's liking considering how much more is yet to go. Let's see what spuzz and Bean think... Guys, after we get all the needed backgrounds, sprites and such done, would you be willing to split the task of making a couple judge-based MMX-style sprites (really only editing the heads of pre-existing MMX sprites, and doing some recoloring), with only one of them throwing an upgrade via some quick and simple two or three frame animation, for each area (free a couple judges at once, or three if there aren't many bosses)? Or, should we do it simpler... something like the MMX games, with a blank screen after the boss dies, containing a big Tan4 sprite that flashes or something, and says the name of the weapon you just got (thus, no judge sprites)? I personally could go either way on it at the moment. It could easily be incorporated into the story (so and so captures the judges, and Dr. Pretzel sends Tan4 to save them and bring peace to the forums), so that's not an issue. And Dadydd, it's not a matter of ideas not being useful at all. But rather, not turning this into a "Can I be in it too?" thing... which happens almost every time a project involving OCR members gets started. The moment one person is used, it then turns into a request-fest of everyone wanting to be featured. But, if we keep this about Tan4 and generalized aspects of OCR as a site (problems, forums, etc.), it eliminates that can of worms altogether. It's nothing against you, your ideas, or anyone for that matter. It's just simpler and less headache inducing... more KISS, that's all spuzz- I like the idea of keeping her guitar used for only a charged up shot (which I'm almost done animating... I'll post it after dinner). I definitely think we should stick with that.

Dafydd- Judging by how some of this is going, I'd wager the judges aren't going to be bosses or enemies. As stated by others, Tan4 fighting them (or things named after them) doesn't make sense since they're on her side. Bean- Once you get the design to where spuzz and Wingless are happy with it, you can send the bits and pieces to me if you like. I can try making some simple attack animations. Is that sprite all original, or did you use pieces of other MMX bosses, coupled with some original work, to build it? I ask because if you used parts of bosses, it might help with getting parts for the animations to know which ones. I have a quickie idea for the guitar thing if you don't mind me trying it.

What's so funny and wrong with it? Animated gifs and Flash share a very similar frames-per-second set up in a number of respects. I could make that same gif (timings and all) in Flash with a 20 fps setting for the end swf file, and it would look very much the same as that gif with its .05 second delay on each frame. The movement for the car and such can be done more easily in Flash than Image Ready, but I like making gifs It may seem odd or backwards to you to have a looping gif as a background, but what do you think the backgrounds in many older fighting games from Capcom, SNK, and them were at heart? They were just endlessly looping animation frames... like a gif. Some were longer, some were shorter, but they all looped. Edit: And just for the record Wingless, I do have some Flash knowledge. I know how to make a looping movie object in Flash myself using pieces of the backgrounds I'm doing, which I could then send to you (at the proper fps of course) so you didn't have to do it.

Well, here's what I have so far for the first background... It's probably the most complicated one, since they'll be fighting on the freeway out of the city/forum. I want to add a more steady stream of cars bouncing along in the near lane, and put a somewhat shrunken train of cars in the further lane. Hopefully iy won't take too long. The bottom of the overpass isn't done yet, and I'm debating about whether to add clouds or not. The colors aren't final either, and the hover sign will be replaced with an above-the-road sign that's attached to the highway on the other side that's showing the same type of messages. I figure if I can make it all a steady (and longer) loop, then Wingless won't have to animate it himself. He could just put it as a movie object behind everything, and then put the needed part of the highway in front of the characters' feet (like it is now). If you're on a browser other than FireFox, you likely won't see it running at full speed (a 0.05 delay). I thought Tan and the boss could fight in front of the guard rail with the traffic going by behind them. Oh, the cars are from one of the MMX games, with some animation touches by me. The rest is original. I'll post an updated version of it tomorrow. There have been a number of changes, but I thought I'd post an earlier WIP of it.

Even better

KISS, man. KISS I don't think we're aiming for a huge project. Unless Wingless gets that proverbial wild hair, this is supposed to be a simple game. TAN4 as the main character, some bosses and backgrounds, a bit of text, maybe an opening, some kind of ending, and simple "X" controls. It seems that the focus should be on Tan4, and her battle to make the world/site a better place for everyone. I know this isn't my project, as I'm just a spriter. But if I may be so bold, here are my current thoughts... - I like the idea of a sprite version of djp being used in a Dr. Light role for maybe the opening and/or ending stuff. - I love the idea of the Nice Shot (cue up that one rock song ). - I could see various programs being used as power up names after beating each boss, but not really as stage design ideas. - I also replug the simple story idea I wrote up here, sans the level ideas since this is single screen boss battle only now. I'd be more than happy to type it up as opening and ending text, and put possible conversation ideas between Tan4 and any bosses once they're agreed upon. The whole thing in my head right now would be pretty short, so it wouldn't be tl;dr stuff. Then it could be tweaked, adjusted, and edited to make it longer, shorter, and shifted as needed. - I really frown upon the idea of using the judges, or any individual posters in general, as characters or stage ideas. Only djp should be included, if the whole 'him as Dr. Light' thing goes over well with people. Beyond that, I think concepts and happenings given boss form would work better, and make more sense. I was the main writer and one of the spriters for the UnMod RPG, and I know first hand what happens when plans get too grandiose and diluted. More and more got added to that game, until it became such a daunting workload on all fronts, that people just dropped out from it left and right once they saw what was needed. I'd hate to see that happen here, especially since this was supposed to be a reasonably quick and simple idea. I hope I'm not coming off as pushy here, as that's not my intension. This isn't my idea, and I'm not the one that has to put all this stuff together via code. However, I'd like to hear what spuzz and Wingless have to say on everything that's been proposed. If they think the idea I wrote sounds like a good base to build on, then I'll do everything in my power to keep things quick and simple story-wise. If they don't like it and want to go with other ideas that have been put forth, then I'll simply keep my mouth shut and continue making the two backgrounds (which I'd hate to have to ditch) that I've got going unless I'm asked to help in the new short storyline at some point. What say you two? You were both in this project before I was, so it's your call I believe.

OOOOOOH! Missed the introduction thread by that much Welcome nonetheless.