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I would say that most of the "worst" pirates who simply download anything they can get their hands on are just regular joes wanting to pass the time and maybe put some material on myspace or forums or whatever. If you are actually a professional, serious producer earning money from what you do, you'd probably be more inclined to buy what you actually need and disconsider what you don't.

So what I just said was a more elaborate version of "these guys weren't going to buy it anyway", and that's my perspective on the whole thing. The sheer accessability of software has simply made the industry available to a demographic who probably wouldn't even bother with the effort otherwise.

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Altho I kind'a agree with the sentiment, it needs a better argument. "Since I won't X, torrenting it is OK?"

In other words, since I'm not gonna buy all seasons of House MD on DVD, it's OK to torrent them, or watch them streamed, or have a friend burn me copies of his DVDs. That's why the argument isn't a good one. Sure, exposure and user familiarity might benefit the industry, but the illegal copies hurt the industry financially.

Your ISP and your electricity company get paid more than the software companies when you use the software. Is that how it's supposed to be?

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another thing that refuses to change here: most of the forum members are gigantic faggots.

Which nicely demonstrates my point about your ban meaning no loss of value. Your attitude (which is shared by many) forces me (and others) to pay more for the same software, because the only thing companies can think of to combat the loss is to jack up the prices. You may now pat yourself on the back for this.

...and talking about this shit in public remains fucking stupid. You're not doing anything you can take pride in.

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I think there's real truth to both sides. When it comes to music, I actually like to buy mine. But I also like to buy my music used, and my fiance brought it to my attention one day...does that really help the artist since you brought it second hand?

I do think it is unrealistic to expect someone to be able to afford the high end production software and hardware. Even the lower prices are still exceptionally high. That said, I think that when you get to a point of being able to afford the programs, buying them does show that you do at least support the creation. Its a hard issue too because its hard on wallets and hard on creativity.

That said, I still don't think its stealing. Granted, no one complained on a huge scale that I knew when people taped music off the radio or made tapes for each other. But, when the quality went up and the industry took a hit, all of a sudden it became stealing.

If someone has a program and or a cd and gives it to you, I don't think that's wrong. I have turned down people that have b/c I wanted to go buy the cd, but then I have gotten some tapes and some programs from people that had copies. Its how people get a feel for them and start.

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The thing about radio is that it's offered for free to begin with. It's supported by advertisers almost entirely. Unlike actual music CDs or software.

Also, no BS about prices being "exceptionally high". You can create a killer right for <$500 total. New Macs come with everything you need. A decent keyboard? $100 or less. Headphones? $100 or less. Some of the best samples? Get Computer Music magazine for $15 and get gigabytes of stuff. Reaper? $30. I could go on.

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...does that really help the artist since you brought it second hand?

The artist was helped the first time someone else bought it new.

I do think it is unrealistic to expect someone to be able to afford the high end production software and hardware. Even the lower prices are still exceptionally high.

Absolute nonsense, really.

Making music has never ever been cheaper. Especially if you keep in mind the value of the dollar now and the value of it back then. Freeware already can give you 4 fully polyphonic subtractive synthesizers - if you saw what a Minimoog (monophonic) cost new - those $1495 in 1970 dollars would be more than $8000 now.

Samplers just weren't even -thinkable- for anyone before the E-mu Emulator and the Ensoniq Mirage, because the Fairlight and Synclavier cost tens of thousands of dollars back then. Even Mark Snow (composer X-files tune) had to take out a loan to get one.

That said, I still don't think its stealing.

That's because it isn't; it's copyright infringement. Doesn't have such a nice ring to it, but is legally correct.

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I think there's real truth to both sides. When it comes to music, I actually like to buy mine. But I also like to buy my music used, and my fiance brought it to my attention one day...does that really help the artist since you brought it second hand?

If the person who originally bought and paid for the music sells it to someone else (or otherwise legitimately gives his license away) he no longer has access to it and no longer has any right to it. It's like selling a physical object second-hand. It doesn't necessarily benefit the artist any more than a used car sale benefits Honda, but it doesn't hurt the artist like piracy does.

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If the person who originally bought and paid for the music sells it to someone else (or otherwise legitimately gives his license away) he no longer has access to it and no longer has any right to it. It's like selling a physical object second-hand. It doesn't necessarily benefit the artist any more than a used car sale benefits Honda, but it doesn't hurt the artist like piracy does.

Technically that's not true. I bring forth the case of Peter Quistgard.

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Technically that's not true. I bring forth the case of Peter Quistgard.

The Cool Edit Pro guy?

I was speaking specifically of music -- CDs, cassettes, etc. There are plenty of pieces of software with TOS statements that forbid license transfers.

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It's stealing but people make excuses because the stuff is digital, which makes it really easy to pirate for cheap and lazy people. You wouldn't walk into a music store and steal some gear. You wouldn't ask to "borrow it" in order to try it out. But it's the same thing. There are plenty of free/low cost alternatives these days so really there's no excuse. Good luck finding free hardware gear.

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I'm surprised that people didn't just straight up bring up the whole "piration" thing...:)!!

I'm against piracy and all that, however when people get sued for downloading a couple of songs (and when the amount is several thousand), I think that's taking it a bit far. I understand the reasoning, but when you fine some random $24000 for 12 songs, that's just plain stupid.

Personally, if the software is sanely priced, and is half decent, I will buy it, even if I could pirate it. For example, FL studio; downloadable version+free updates=ftw.

Even though I need slightly more than those in the US (not much thanks to the aussie dollar being as strong as it is), I still think its worth it.

Then there's Adobe. Lower your prices, and I might buy your stuff. In the meanwhile, I will enjoy the privileges of going to the local university (which gets a deal where certain subjects give out free copies of required software. Things like Audition, Photoshop CS3 etc are at worst discounted).

Really, if you give them the incentive, they will come. You just need to give them a reason to want to support you...

Yes, I am looking at you Microsoft.

(anyone else miss the days when there were more legal torrents than illegal?)

(also, I am aware of the impact that piracy has on creators. I'm just saying that having software costing $1000s more than previously isn't the solution)

I own and purchased my own copies of Windows XP and XP64--I am a beacon on a hill!

Heh, and I own a legal copy of Vista Ultimate, complete with an equally legal copy of the new, much crappier Office.

woot for bluescreens.

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You wouldn't walk into a music store and steal some gear. You wouldn't ask to "borrow it" in order to try it out.

Actually, my local music store has been pretty cool in the past about letting me try stuff out before I buy. Then again, I'm friends with a lot of the guys there including the owner. Slightly off topic, but it can pay to make nice with the guys at the top. Or you could always try renting some gear for a bit to try it out if it's available.

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It's stealing

You have gulped down the RIAA kool-aid, it's copyright infringement.

but people make excuses because the stuff is digital

They make excuses because taking responsibility is not the hip thing to do.

which makes it really easy to pirate for cheap and lazy people

We'll all cheap and lazy because we use computers to play the music for us.

Getting any software cracked isn't easy by the way.

You wouldn't walk into a music store and steal some gear.

No, because that means the original owner of the device can no longer use it. You walk in the music store, whip out a 3-dimensional molecular replicator, and clone the device. Then you take the clone and walk out. Stealing implies deprivation of property. Infringement implies loss of potential income.

In the case of stealing you have to deal with criminal law.

In the case of copyright infringement, it's civil law, unless you are part of a criminal organisation that does CD duplication with a complete plant. Understand the distinction, because it's important. It does not provide any loopholes other than the fact that the first can get your home raided and searched, and the second gets you a lawsuit.

There are plenty of free/low cost alternatives these days so really there's no excuse.

Yes, that I agree with.

Good luck finding free hardware gear.

People dump their computers after a year because they're too slow. Ask 'm if you can have it, do a reinstall, presto: free hardware.

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Actually, my local music store has been pretty cool in the past about letting me try stuff out before I buy. Then again, I'm friends with a lot of the guys there including the owner.

If that's true then that's sweet. Yeah connections definitely can get you places.

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People dump their computers after a year because they're too slow. Ask 'm if you can have it, do a reinstall, presto: free hardware.

Damn right; this very computer cost me nothing to build. AND its actually quite good.

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Speak for yourself, spanky. I play for real. \m/

Yep. Also, guitars; its hard to get a true guitar sound with computerised fonts and such.

The guitar is too flexible. You can record the notes, but sucks to be you if you need actual fancy stuffs.

(hell, it'd be nice though)...

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Just to throw in my view on the matter.. basically, I am a hobbyist. I don't intend on selling my work at all. I just like to mess around. Demos suck and free stuff is never as good as professional products. If I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't buy it because I don't have that kind of money to throw down. So either way the producers aren't getting my money. But at least if I pirate it I can have a way to have a little fun and learn about how things work, and if I ever get good enough to sell anything I make, I would certainly buy a copy of the pirated stuff. For me it's more about learning than saying "hey free stuff lulz," and I can say for sure I would not be anywhere near where I am today developmentally if I had not had the chances that I've had to mess with certain programs. I don't see how I'm doing anyone any harm.

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You might not be doing any harm by going into someone's unlocked house and walking around either. That doesn't mean you have the right to do it. "Legal" and "Illegal" are not based strictly on "Harmful" and "Not Harmful". You really have no excuse, also, considering there is software like Reaper that costs $30 and has as much functionality as programs like Sonar, Cubase, etc. So, that argument doesn't work at all.

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