OCR TF2: New Server forthcoming - new server IPs and other stuff

[Powerlord]

Wow, Powerlord. At the risk of sounding like a brown-noser, your dedication to this community is amazing, even post-admin. I salute you.

Who says I'm not an admin any more?

Yes, I realize my departure lasted a whole... 3 days.

Incidentally, the new domain now appears to be functional. As a bonus, attempting to connect to ocrtf2.com directly in a web browser fails, but then most browers prepend www to it.

It's not frustration, really; I've moved past that now. I'm just... tired. I won't bother going into detail, since the historical response to such things has been a link to livejournal.com. And it would drag the thread off-topic anyway.

Public servers bring in people skilled and not so skilled.

And speaking as a person who plays Spy a lot, Alltalk restricts one of your more useful abilities: reporting on enemy movements. Even if enemies can hear you, the talk symbol appears over your head while you're cloaked and disguised. You may not have noticed, but the ! in the talk icon is team colored.

Directed toward no one in particular:

I would sincerely love to hear, in as much eye-straining, mind-numbing, microscopic detail as you can possibly conjure up, why Valve maps are so much better than customs.

Need examples to work with? I've got pairs handy: Badwater/Cashworks, Yukon/Granary, Dustbowl/Egypt. Do more than one if you're feeling ambitious.

Cashworks is terribly optimized, to the point of being unplayable on some computers. It also has some odd design choices, particularly between points A and B, where BLU has this huge back area it can go through that exits behind RED's point B spawn.

If you know about this area, you can get up to it as a Demo or Soldier, but traditionally BLU uses this to harass RED with Engineers and offense classes (Soldier, Heavy, Demo, etc...).

It also has an unnecessarily long straight chokepoint between points C and D.

Last, it's one of the largest maps on the server. The only ones I know that are larger are tc_meridian, cyberpunk, cp_cyberpunk, and cp_glacier. (Incidentally, I need to fix the column sort for numbers on the map page).

I'm surprised you aren't comparing Yukon to Badlands, as Granary is of the "vertical line" type, while Yukon and Badlands are in the "diagonal line" type.

Yukon was specifically designed to "bring utility classes into greater use." The center point in particular is designed to prevent rocket-jumping or sticky-jumping across.

I personally don't have that many problems with Yukon, though.

Egypt needs balancing on section 1, point B. The defense has too heavy an advantage at this point (unless BLU caps it before RED can set up). There are only really two entrances into the last area, with one route eventually splitting in two. The open route can be effectively watches by snipers and engineers, the cave route by combat classes (Demos in particular).

Section 2 starts with a vertical section that puts most of BLU's classes at a disadvantage.

Putting a one-way door in-bound to the point at section 2, point B is a very odd choice.

Section 3 also contains a vertical section, but it's a much wider area, and thus doesn't disadvantage BLU nearly as much as section 2 does.

One last comment about Egypt: The doors open too slowly, even in their current incarnation (the original incarnation opened at half the current speed). The offense's clock starts ticking as soon as the doors start moving, not the 5-10 seconds later when they finish opening.

P.S. It's a good thing you didn't bring up Junction.

[Clefairy]

small essay

This was more feedback than I expected to get. Thanks.

And, okay, we've established custom maps have problems. I won't deny that.

But what I really want to know is what makes the Valve maps successful in terms of design. That's the half of the argument nobody ever bothers to make.

[Rambo]

But what I really want to know is what makes the Valve maps successful in terms of design. That's the half of the argument nobody ever bothers to make.

As powerlord pointed out, a lot of custom maps have big optimization problems. Valve maps are very well optimized. This is a first big factor for me.

I also feel that most custom maps I've played on have been much more focused on being different and quirky than being well balanced and planned out. Harvest is my favorite arena map. Not because it's fall themed. But because it feels as though the maker designed the layout first. I also like Yukon for the same reason, its consistency and good flow. Cashworks however feels as the it was made in 10 different parts, was given some filler connections, and then had capture points thrown in arbitrarily when it was done.

If more mapmakers started with a start-to-finish level layout instead of rushing in and putting rocks everywhere.... there would probably be a much better turn out for good maps.

This isn't to say custom maps aren't fun to screw around on. But most of them aren't taylored to to TF2 gameplay.

[Trianine]

It's a hard argument to make, because no map is the same. You can't just throw a "game balance" brush on the map. If you listen to people chatter in game, there are a lot of different design critiques that are thrown out. FWIW, if you are really interested in that, join up TF2maps.net, either on the web, or in TF2. Even stock maps generate critical discussion there, that's what they do.

Personally, I think that there are a lot of wonderful custom maps out there and at one time had published a list. The problem is that anybody can attempt to make a map, publish it, and with all the work involved accept the fact that it has flaws. Not every map-maker has a clue, for that matter. So there is a bit of risk with customs.

I think a lot of people dislike them by principal. Which is a shame. TF2 is what it is because of the updates and user content. I've played games that were technically better, but not nearly as popular, because that interaction was lost.

This was more feedback than I expected to get. Thanks.

And, okay, we've established custom maps have problems. I won't deny that.

But what I really want to know is what makes the Valve maps successful in terms of design. That's the half of the argument nobody ever bothers to make.

Edit: speaking of TF2maps.net, and customs....http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=9155 This looks silly enough to watch out for.

[Secret Agent Man]

I don't have a problem with customs in general. I have a problem with unfinished customs. In particular, ones still in the beta or release candidate stage. In addition to having to re-download them when a new version comes out, they're usually terrible (not all, but most). When I play TF2, I don't want to be beta testing maps.

Also, Egypt is a terrible, terrible map.

[DarkeSword]

Also, Egypt is a terrible, terrible map.

I agree with this. I'm not a fan of Egypt at all. I don't like the layout and I don't like the aesthetic. It doesn't really adhere to any of the design philosophies that most TF2 maps follow; it's just big blocks of yellow everywhere. :\

My favorite custom map is probably Follower.

[Sensai]

Oooh, so what you mean to say, DarkeSword, is that you enjoy most of Granary, but like the middle point of Badlands?

I don't have an answer for you, Clefairy, but I imagine that the reason Valve maps are better is because more time is put into them by more people. It's a job for them, not just a hobby.

[Dhsu]

I agree with this. I'm not a fan of Egypt at all. I don't like the layout and I don't like the aesthetic.

Why you gotta be so racist, Darke.

[Clefairy]

Thanks to everyone who responded; to be perfectly honest, I expected to get trolled by Bleck, then have the subject changed. So this was a lovely suprise.

Speaking of lovely suprises, I'd like to personally thank Sporknight for showing up last night. Your two-beer fueled antics brought needed mirth to an otherwise cold and dreary day.

For those of you who don't know, I'm living with unmedicated depression (not untreated, just unmedicated). It's been unusually acute this past week, which has been a strong influence on the tone of my last few posts. That's the detail I was referring to earlier; there are other places online to whinge about life, and I'm not asking for anyone's sympathy.

In spite of that, you guys are one of the most consistent reasons I have for continuing to get up every morning. Thanks for doing what you do.

[Trianine]

it's just big blocks of yellow everywhere. :\

While I agree that Egypt is horrible, I have to say that the minimalist aesthetic of Orange style maps is pretty appealing. This is a wall, and this is a floor, know the difference! But they also remind me of American Gladiators, which makes me giggle.

DarkeSword, you make a salient point though about design aesthetic, what is the TF2 experience? How meta-textual do we want our gameplay on OCR? For some people, standard (non-ctf) maps that are familiar and promote competitive gameplay are the only way to go. For others, a retarded map like pac-man or, heaven forbid, cyberpunk, are nice because they are playful, and allow users to explore aspects of the game that were perhaps not intended. Most of us seem to want gameplay somewhere in-between. Playful, but we still get to kill, and teabag those whom we dominate.

[Trianine]

Clefairy, I hope the lack of medication is by choice and not by circumstance. If so, how does it go?

And here I thought you just had a dry and well practiced tone of defeat for your fellow teammates.

[DarkeSword]

Oh I forgot to mention: last night there was a glitch where a pyro's flames would use the airblast animation and sound. Apparently you can make that happen on purpose? I'm not sure how it's done, but please don't do it. The sputtering sound and animation can cause slowdown for players with slower machines.

[Rambo]

Oh I forgot to mention: last night there was a glitch where a pyro's flames would use the airblast animation and sound. Apparently you can make that happen on purpose? I'm not sure how it's done, but please don't do it. The sputtering sound and animation can cause slowdown for players with slower machines.

+1

TF2 is just fine and dandy with my solid 17fps. I don't particularly enjoy it with 5fps.

[D-Lux]

If you're talking about people like Vic and Spank, I don't have a problem with them haha.

You tend to get rid of people who need to be gotten rid of.

Those particular users joke around a lot, but they don't harass people when they do it, so I don't mind it. In fact a lot of times I end up laughing my ass off.

I give leniency to most people because it's late at night and stuff can get really funny at night. If someone crosses the line though, they only get one warning from me. That's enough.

I'm assuming the scramble plugin has been fixed? I've been powerless when it comes to teamstacking and it has even drained the server a few times. When I kindly asked pubs to switch around to balance the teams (a few different nights), I'd get back silence. Most of the regulars are OK about it though.

[Powerlord]

I give leniency to most people because it's late at night and stuff can get really funny at night. If someone crosses the line though, they only get one warning from me. That's enough.

I'm assuming the scramble plugin has been fixed? I've been powerless when it comes to teamstacking and it has even drained the server a few times. When I kindly asked pubs to switch around to balance the teams (a few different nights), I'd get back silence. Most of the regulars are OK about it though.

It should be working now.

[ThndrShk2k]

Sorry to hear about that Clefairy, I know how it can be. I apologize for my more than abundant FaN+Sandman antics the past few nights. Most of the time it's just mere coincidence that I happen to get you.

[Clefairy]

Sorry to hear about that Clefairy, I know how it can be. I apologize for my more than abundant FaN+Sandman antics the past few nights. Most of the time it's just mere coincidence that I happen to get you.

Don't worry about it. I might bitch when a FaN scout ganks me, regardless of class, but that's just the heat of the moment. Issues of team dynamics are far more worrisome to me, and that isn't something that can be resolved on a public server. Some people just want to log on and kill things, strategy and class balance be damned; it's not a playstyle I agree with, but that hardly makes it invalid.

On a sort-of related note, my entry into the competitive scene has gone rather well. In fact, the last few days have seen several pick-up style games taking on all comers. The atmosphere is pretty laid-back; heavy, spy and pyro appear frequently from round-to-round, and everybody gets together on Vent afterward to have a good laugh. If anyone here is interested, by all means contact me.

And yes, Trianine, I do so by choice.

[Sporknight]

Speaking of lovely suprises, I'd like to personally thank Sporknight for showing up last night. Your two-beer fueled antics brought needed mirth to an otherwise cold and dreary day.

Aww, why thank you Clefairy. Glad to be a point of amusement to make up for a crappy day.

This touching moment brought to you by the OCRemix TF2 Community

[Tensei]

Next time, on a very special episode of ocrtf2...~

[chivesontheweb]

The atmosphere is pretty laid-back; heavy, spy and pyro appear frequently from round-to-round, and everybody gets together on Vent afterward to have a good laugh.

And a Pyro in the competitive scene does what, exactly? The only time I've heard of Pyro being brought out in comp TF2 is defending key control points with compression and such. So many times I've wanted to play in a more competitive setting but have been thwarted because I pretty much just use Pyro. I guess pubs are fine for me but the choice of maps and high player counts make it less enjoyable for me. And yes, for me 24 players is too many on most maps.

[Vahn_Paktu]

I saw Don Newman floating around the server a while back and sure enough it's the same one with the pyro vids.

Don Newman Presents: The Magic of Television

A few OCR moments in there.

[Clefairy]

And a Pyro in the competitive scene does what, exactly? The only time I've heard of Pyro being brought out in comp TF2 is defending key control points with compression and such. So many times I've wanted to play in a more competitive setting but have been thwarted because I pretty much just use Pyro. I guess pubs are fine for me but the choice of maps and high player counts make it less enjoyable for me. And yes, for me 24 players is too many on most maps.

I'm inclined to agree on the player count, at this point. Later today I think I'm going to track down a decent 18-player server and see how that works out.

As for comp Pyro, he does all the stuff you'd expect him to do. Flank the other team, apply pressure through afterburn, manage spam and ubers with airblast. At a higher level, yeah, the pocket soldier would just turn around and two-shot juggle you, but I've yet to play with anyone that good.

[Trianine]

I saw Don Newman floating around the server a while back and sure enough it's the same one with the pyro vids.

Don Newman Presents: The Magic of Television

A few OCR moments in there.

The heavy punching bit was rather amazing, despite us having 2fort silliness.

[Powerlord]

I'm inclined to agree on the player count, at this point. Later today I think I'm going to track down a decent 18-player server and see how that works out.

Given that the game was balanced for 24-players, it seems weird playing it with less.

It also feels weird playing it with more (32-player server is just madness).

[Clefairy]

Given that the game was balanced for 24-players, it seems weird playing it with less.

This is probably my scout bias coming through, but a lot of the maps feel really cramped with 24 people. Especially when there are only two routes between distinct areas of the map. Getting behind people to do whatever it is you're doing is a royal pain with that many bodies running around.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good midfield deathmatch as much as the next guy. But if I wanted to do that all the time, I'd have bought a different game.

EDIT: And now, mostly to vent my frustrations, a story.

A red heavy and a blue scout are on a patch of land, about 30 feet on all sides. They have been stripped of all their weapons, and are bare-knuckle brawling. The scout isn't stupid, and makes use of every single advantage he has available; using terrain to put the heavy on unbalanced footing, throwing dirt in his face, using his enormous opponent's momentum to get in reversals and cheap shots. In spite of all this, the heavy is larger, stronger, and more experienced in this form of combat, and repeatedly mashes the scout into a bloody pulp.

This goes on for some time. The scout begins to show up less and less often, as the collected injury to his body is taking its toll. Eventually, after a particularly vicious beating, the scout doesn't come back for the next round. Once the heavy realizes his sparring partner isn't coming back, he moves on as well. The patch of land is reclaimed by nature, grass and weeds spread over it like a two-foot-high carpet. It becomes a haven for mice, crickets and other small members of the natural world.

The heavy implacably marches on toward further conquests, the letters ZUZ proudly emblazoned on his shirt.

--

Playing with your friends is one thing; playing with your friends exclusively is entirely another.

That's all I'm going to say.