Caster13 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 A week and a half ago I decided that I needed a new hobby so I picked up Violin for Dummies. A few days after that, I rented a violin from my nearest specialty music store ($16 per month including insurance? Who knew it'd be so cheap?). I'm having a total blast, playing/practicing anywhere from thirty minutes to four hours a day unless I've had a ridiculously long day at work. I'm currently at a point where I'm able to learn and play twenty-thirty second long melodies (mostly from Cave Story since I found a nice collection of sheet music) or so in about a half an hour to an hour's time worth of consistent playing. Seeing as to how I'm pretty much learning it all on my own however, I have come up with a few questions that I could use some help with from some more seasoned and experienced players (who I'm hoping are around here somewhere). First of all. Is it supposed to hurt so much and/or will the pain eventually go away with practice? My right hand cramps when holding the bow after a while; my left shoulder tires out; along with my left wrist. When I try to hold both bow and violin according to the pictures I've seen in the Dummies book and in other places around the web (e.g. a straight wrist-forearm so that the violin doesn't rest on the wrist, curved thumb holding the bow, etc) they hurt even more intensely and quickly. Am I just going to have to tough it out and let my pathetically weak limbs get used to the pain? Maybe I should pick up some weights to do curls with when I've got free time? I find that I my left shoulder and wrist barely cramp as much when I let the neck of the violin rest in the palm and wrist of my left hand but would getting used to this kind of "incorrect" positioning be a problem later on in the future? My biggest challenge right now is learning and getting the hang of understanding/reading music. That is, associating the musical notation to the actual sounds to the finger positions. Any hints or advice on how I can speed up the learning process? And finally, can anybody recommend cheap but decent music recording hardware and software? I'd like to keep a record of my progress and post them to my LJ to share with my friends. At this point, I'm not exactly trying to record anything that'd be worthy of submitting to OCR, so would $10 microphones like these be good enough? And what free recording/editing software would go well with it? What about free music notation software? Most of the sheet musics I've found tend to be for other instruments other than the violin so are there any free programs that'll let me write and print out sheet music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Is it supposed to hurt so much and/or will the pain eventually go away with practice? Yes, it will. I find that I my left shoulder and wrist barely cramp as much when I let the neck of the violin rest in the palm and wrist of my left hand but would getting used to this kind of "incorrect" positioning be a problem later on in the future? Yes, it will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Let me say first off that you should never, never be lifting weights to strengthen your arms for violin. The way you lift weights pulls muscles in ways that do not help at all for violin. So make sure to stretch if you do lift regularly. It's been 13 years since I picked up the violin so I don't really remember what the first couple years were like. But with regards to hand positioning, I'm not sure that the cramps will go away even if you keep imitating what you see in picture for the positioning. I would highly recommend trying to find someone who already plays the violin to help you with correct hand positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olarin Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 First of all. Is it supposed to hurt so much and/or will the pain eventually go away with practice? Do not just play through pain! You could seriously hurt yourself doing that. Admittedly I'm a bassist/cellist and not a violinist, so I can't speak to the specific instrument, but in any endeavour pain is important feedback from your body and you shouldn't ignore it. Obviously you can't be afraid of a little muscle fatigue - you are exercising muscles in your arm, hand, and fingers, after all, and training them to do new things - but if you're experiencing serious pain there may be some subtle problems in your approach that could lead to serious injuries later on. Trying to learn the correct hand positions for a string instrument from just images in a book can be awfully difficult - if you can't afford or don't have time for private instruction, at least find a friend who plays the instrument and can spend a few minutes helping in person now and then. Also on the topic of practice being like exercise, consider stretching out before picking up the instrument; get the body and the fingers as limber as possible. Maybe I should pick up some weights to do curls with when I've got free time? Well, weight-lifting is good for your health (as long as you're doing it safely), but as Gollgagh said I don't think it's likely to affect your violin playing noticably. Most of your problems probably have to do with smaller sets of muscles; hand-strengthening exercises (of the sort used to counteract / prevent tendonitis, for example) would probably be more beneficial. Also consider what else you might be doing in your daily routine that could be causing you pain or wear; some minor improvements to my computer setup several years ago completely eliminated some wrist pain I was having playing bass. I find that I my left shoulder and wrist barely cramp as much when I let the neck of the violin rest in the palm and wrist of my left hand but would getting used to this kind of "incorrect" positioning be a problem later on in the future? Most people will tell you you're better off learning 'correct', orthodox techniques, and that's generally true; such techniques were developed for a reason after all. Unorthodox technique could potentially result in injury, but if you're careful to pay attention to pain and not stress yourself that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The more likely problem from 'bad' technique is that you may find yourself limited later on, unable to do things you want to do without relearning fundamentals of your approach. However, keep in mind that everybody's body is different, and what's best for most people's hands may not be best for yours; a good teacher will leverage their knowledge of different techniques to help a student find the approach that best fits their physique, rather than try to conform them to one exact method of playing. It's also worth noting that occasionally dedicated musicians manage to flourish with unorthodox self-taught techniques, and possibly even develop their own wild innovations. But referring specifically to left-hand shape, yeah, you'll be far better off learning to arc your hand correctly, with the tip of the thumb against the back of the neck; gives your fingers a lot more freedom of movement (this is true throughout the string instruments). My biggest challenge right now is learning and getting the hang of understanding/reading music. That is, associating the musical notation to the actual sounds to the finger positions. Any hints or advice on how I can speed up the learning process? Work with a keyboard (if it's an acoustic piano make sure it's decently in tune) - it gives you the sound associated with the note (assuming you know which key to press - get a little strip of paper with note names on it if you need to). Then work with your voice - sing along with the keyboard so you're hearing that pitch in your head, still looking at the music so you're associating it with the written note as well. Then listen closely whenever you play your violin to your own sound, focusing especially on intonation; develop a familiarity with the fingerboard such that when you hear a pitch in your head, your fingers know where to move to make that sound. This sort of approach will also develop the equally important (if not more important) skill of reproducing what you hear without needing sheet music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caster13 Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Thanks for all the tips and advice so far. I think the pain I feel is just muscle fatigue as they quickly subside once I give them a stretch after playing. I'll definitely keep a note of whether or not any of the pain subcedes with more practice. A few days after I picked up the violin, the idea of getting myself a small digital keyboard popped into my mind so I'm going to keep an eye out for those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
po! Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 do you have a shoulder rest? you should get one if you don't have one. you should NOT be resting the neck on your left hand. you should be able to hold the violin with just your neck, and your left hand should be free to move anywhere as for right hand, i'm sure with time you'll get used to it. right hand (both hands actually) should be very relaxed and you shouldn't really have to grip it hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caster13 Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 I didn't pick up a shoulder rest at first but I got one soon after and found that it's a big help. I practiced for about two hours today and focused on keeping my left hand in a proper hold and found out that my shoulder muscles are especially strained when I "arm steer" towards the right and finger the G and D strings. A few stretching exercises focusing on that helped to ease the strain quite a bit. Any advice on my home recording questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAvenger Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 Sounds like you're working out the pain problems, which is good. I would definatly recommend stretching before and after playing the instrument. This includes fingers/hands. One exercise I was told to do in methods class is to hold the bow at the top (straight up and down) and 'walk' it down to the bottom with one hand. Go back up to your original position. Feels weird at first, but helps a bit with some fine muscle control. As for recording, I will always recommend Audacity. Free software is great, and this one is pretty decent. As for microphones themselves I'm not too sure as I don't know exactly how a violin set up would be to get the best sound. If you're thinking of keeping it cheap, I can't imagine that anything more than $10 would be worth it. As long as you realize that the sound quality won't be that great (but if you're going through your onboard soundcard, it won't be great anyways) then it should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 No, it really shouldn't hurt that bad. It might feel awkward, but if you are feeling pain, it is probably either because you are too tense, or have your wrist or arm at the wrong angle. If you continue to hold it the wrong way it can lead to carpal tunnel syndrome. I would try and find a private teacher, and maybe take a couple lessons just to make sure that you are holding the instrument correctly. The hardest thing about holding it, is that there are so many little things that you might be doinh, and they can cause your entire hand to cramp up. I had a student who just needed to bring her arm in a little bit, and it fixed her entire hand position, and it didn't hurt anymore for her to play. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 oh yeah that's right. ALWAYS make sure you're lifting your violin up. If find your elbow on your hip, get that arm right back up! (this is an old bad habit of mine that tends to happen when I have my music stand too low. my arm starts drooping since I'm bending over to see the music) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caster13 Posted November 6, 2008 Author Share Posted November 6, 2008 After following all of your advice (stretching to warm up my muscles, following the proper holds) I was able to play for much longer time. I was even able to play/follow along for the nearly the whole melody of Moonsong--except for the parts with consecutive eighth notes in a row, still gotta learn to get my fingers to move that quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehDonut Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 dunno if this has been said already but, your left wrist should always be straight, I used to have a bad habit of palming the neck, and it slowed my fingers down sooo much. Basically if you want to speed up your fingers, just practice scales and arpeggios, then do some cite reading. Pretty soon you won't even need to look down at your fingers. My first 1-2 years of violin I had tape on the neck to mark where my fingers should go for each note. (All natural) And a different colored tape for flat/sharp notes. Your left arm should always be relaxed and your back should be straight. Your right arm shouldn't be to tense, but enough to control your bow fairly quickly. If you follow these tips you shouldn't have any strain at all. I hope this advice helps. One question though, do you play sitting on a chair or standing up? Sitting on a chair to read music usually ends up making your back bend forward and it's realllllly bad if you're just starting out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindra Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I too have been meaning to pick violin back up. I'll have to keep all this advice mentioned here in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwing Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I like the viola better. But that's just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I like the viola better. But that's just my two cents. I'd love to pick up the viola but for the quality I expect out of my instruments, it'd be a pretty hefty investment. (my violin that I got new ten years ago was about $6500 iirc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caster13 Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 My first 1-2 years of violin I had tape on the neck to mark where my fingers should go for each note. (All natural) And a different colored tape for flat/sharp notes. One question though, do you play sitting on a chair or standing up? Sitting on a chair to read music usually ends up making your back bend forward and it's realllllly bad if you're just starting out. Taping the neck was one of the first things the Dummies book suggested for beginners. I've got some tape down to help with my fingering but, for the most part, I sort of wing flats and sharps when I see them on sheet music. I figure I'll work on the basics before trying to memorize even more finger positions. I mix up playing while sitting and standing and I don't seem to have any issues with either one. When sitting I have my music stand held up really high, just a little bit higher than my horizontal line of sight so that I don't slouch. I also use a rather comfortable chair with a solid back that helps me sit straight. I'd love to pick up the viola but for the quality I expect out of my instruments, it'd be a pretty hefty investment. (my violin that I got new ten years ago was about $6500 iirc) Sixty... five...? Was it just worth that much or did you actually pay sixty five hundred for it? Also, what's it worth now? =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahamut Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Violins are expensive instruments. I remember having a pricey one imported when I was a kid and learning. For learning purposes, what you're currently doing (renting) is a great option though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Concerning the strengthening of muscles, I found that tennis seemed to build the same muscles as playing violin does. Also, I applaud you for being so dedicated to learning, I should have been like that but I wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Sixty... five...? Was it just worth that much or did you actually pay sixty five hundred for it? It was worth every penny. Except my parents paid for it. My brother uses it mostly now since I haven't played seriously for a couple years, though. Wonderful instrument that. As for its value now, I'm not sure as I haven't gotten it appraised, but I can't imagine it having gone down that much. In fact it may have even gone up a bit since I got it brand new and the wood's had ten years or so to settle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olarin Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Yeah, string instruments generally appreciate in value over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindra Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 We got my great uncle's violin refurbished so I could eventually re-learn. I just haven't put forth the dedication quite yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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