Tex Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 No, I'm pretty sure I can. It's what's called "an opinion". I'm sorry if you can't deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 You can have different opinions, just don't be an ass while voicing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I don't recall being an ass here. I'm being misinterpreted. But I will cease my talking now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Taucer Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 It's good, but I think it would have been far more effective if you'd given an example of a genuine choice in a game, rather than spending so much time on the idea of problems diguised as choices. Nevertheless, worth watching, as are all your videos. EDIT: Txai, evidently you don't have a choice in this matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mutericator Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I don't recall being an ass here. I'm being misinterpreted. But I will cease my talking now. You wouldn't have to if you backed up your opinion with statements supporting it, instead of just saying, "It sucks," and then acting like we're the assholes when we assume you're trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You wouldn't have to if you backed up your opinion with statements supporting it, instead of just saying, "It sucks," and then acting like we're the assholes when we assume you're trolling. I never said "It sucks". I said that it was not good at all. I don't need to state a reason why I don't like it as much as others don't need to state a reason about why they like it. But please, I am not supposed to talk about it anymore. We are ruining his thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Awesome as usual, you keep making them and I'll keep watching them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadofsky Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Sephire, another great lecture. Although, this one was kind of confusing for me to follow (maybe I'm just stupid), but that's because this isn't something I've ever really followed or paid attention to. Why don't you show this, as well as the uncanny valley episode to people in the gaming industry or at GDC for that matter? Maybe they could learn from this. And I can't believe looking at my join date, that I've been here for five years... Where has the time gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted March 22, 2009 Author Share Posted March 22, 2009 Sephire, another great lecture. Although, this one was kind of confusing for me to follow (maybe I'm just stupid), but that's because this isn't something I've ever really followed or paid attention to.Why don't you show this, as well as the uncanny valley episode to people in the gaming industry or at GDC for that matter? Maybe they could learn from this. And I can't believe looking at my join date, that I've been here for five years... Where has the time gone? Actually, it was supposed to go up on Gamasutra a week or two ago, and that place gets a lot of game industry traffic. I think they pushed it back, so hopefully it will show up sometime soon. In a way, James is the guy who is spreading these ideas to other game designers with his columns. I'm just simplifying the ideas a little and spreading them around to other game enthusiasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendlyHunter Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Great Video as usual! It seems to me like this exists more on a spectrum though.. from what you're saying, if a choice has any weight behind it... that is, if one choice can be considered preferable, then it's a "problem in disguise", to me that makes it seem as though the only thing that you could call a real grade A USDA approved "choice" would be something that has zero impact on the game. Like, if a character early on asked you to choose sides in a dispute and depending on which side you choose, a race of people later on in the game all have red hair instead of yellow hair, then it's a choice I suppose unless you prefer one color to the other, in which case it would become a problem because you'd want to make the "correct" choice, the one that would yield your favorite color. The thing is, I don't see any decision as worth making if I don't have something invested in the outcome...like say if I were colorblind, then the hair color would be irrelevant. The same goes for "choices" that would create branches in the gameplay...if a decision in a game gives me branching paths, people will have preferences as to which branch is more to their liking. Like Castlevania 3 to a degree, moreso if you took the extra characters out of the equation. So I see it as any given decision either being closer to a choice or problem based on how much weight is given to the outcome. In order for something to be a pure "choice" by what I see as your definition, it would have to be totally inconsequential and therefore meaningless, like naming your main character with the stipulation that the name never appears in the game because if it did... it might move into problem territory since I'm sure there would be some name you'd prefer to see for whatever reason. Here are some examples of choices in games that are NOT problems in disguise: - Choosing the next level to play in Super Mario Bros 3 or Super Mario World. - Choosing where to go next in Super Metroid or Zero Mission. I hated most of Metroid Prime 3 because almost all of its "choices" were actually problems in disguise (in other words, the exploration was linear and sucked). - Choosing your character's abilities, upgrades and weapons in System Shock 2. - Choosing whether or not to use an item in Super Mario Bros 3, or choosing where to go within a level. - Choosing what to do in a well-balanced RTS (e.g. StarCraft). - Choose out of the dozens of side-quests to do next in Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask. - Choose your destiny (Mortal Kombat). Ok that last one was a stretch. But my point is that great games are often brimming with choices. However there are also great games that are brimming with problems (e.g. epic puzzle games like Adventures of Lolo 1-3... you should NOT have kept the receipt!!) Whoever catches the reference first gets a cookie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Ascher-Weiss Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 If you're correct then I've completely misunderstood the distinction between a choice and a problem because based on my understanding, all of your examples are based on player preference which means there will always be a most desirable action. So.. if a decision in which there is clearly only ONE absolute right answer is a problem, and everything else is a choice, then I'd agree with you. Most of your examples I covered in the Castlevania 3 branching reference. Sidequests all have rewards of one kind or another.. if I remember correctly in Majora's Mask you have a book that you get to check off which characters you helped in order to aim for 100% completion. So yeah.. we're clearly defining "choice" in a completely different manner, it's quite possible I missed the proper meaning, which is why it would have been nice to see, in the video, several examples of real "choices". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Good point, it can never hurt to have examples to back up your point. But yeah, I think the idea here is that decisions based on personal preference are choices, while ones in which only one answer will advance the game is a problem. Incidentally, my personal preference is actually games that consist mostly of problems, since I can never make up my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Yeah, choices can be paralyzing, depending on the mood I'm in. Sometimes you just want there to be a "right" answer, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FR Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 This has probably already been mentioned but... Can a choice become a problem depending on the mindset of the player? Example: In a game, I can be good or evil. I want to be evil. I choose to be evil in a game even though I know that choice brings little rewards. I have effectively made a choice into a problem by negating one of my options. This is all hypothetical btw. I should probably read threads more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Native Jovian Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 FR, I believe that would be an example of a problem by the video's definition. If being evil has no rewards, then the question of "should I be good, or should I be evil?" has a single right answer as far as gameplay is concerned -- you should be good, because its rewards are greater than being evil. If you choose to be evil anyway, then you've created a problem for yourself (you've made the game harder by choosing a suboptimal solution), but that's not a "problem as opposed to choice" by the video's definition. Problems disguised as choices, especially in terms of strategy or equipment, always annoy me. For example, in Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, they presented you with a "choice" between focusing on magic or focusing on physical combat. The reason "choice" is in quotes is because a pure mage character was virtual suicide in that game; you needed at least some physical combat skill in order to survive. It's a problem in disguise, not a choice, and it's annoying because it's dishonest. Why present me with the opportunity to go full mage if it's pretty much guaranteed to get me killed? Especially while insisting that it's a valid choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 The player can always set goals of their own, and a player will approach each decision with his own preferences. We can create our own problems to solve by setting our own goals within a game, certainly. But that's totally outside the power of the game designer. The lecture is only concerned with the game designer's role in crafting an experience. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Problems disguised as choices, especially in terms of strategy or equipment, always annoy me. For example, in Elder Scrolls: Morrowind, they presented you with a "choice" between focusing on magic or focusing on physical combat. The reason "choice" is in quotes is because a pure mage character was virtual suicide in that game; you needed at least some physical combat skill in order to survive. It's a problem in disguise, not a choice, and it's annoying because it's dishonest. Why present me with the opportunity to go full mage if it's pretty much guaranteed to get me killed? Especially while insisting that it's a valid choice? It's still a choice because there are still several viable configurations that will allow you to progress in the game. Intentionally being a weakling just doesn't happen to be one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKrow Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I thought this was a very well-addressed topic. Until now, I hardly bothered to think about decisions / problems and how the create a base for a game. Now I'm probably going to be thinking about these things all the time I also like the humor style with the images and whatnot, it's my kind of humor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 Took long enough, but it's finally up on Gamasutra, along with James' original article. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22456 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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