Final Fantasy VII - Fighting (Rock Remix)

[James_The_Composer]

I am trying to accomplish the fullness of sound I would be able to get using a real guitar vs a synth band.

So, no guitars were used in the making of this. (which is pretty obvious, I think) It's all just Reason 3 with the Sonic Refills Collection. Many different mixing/audio-processing techniques are used to try to get a fullness of sound. It's hard to get that "sinking bass" frequency that regular distortion guitar creates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYNxiYi2X2I

http://www.takutogame.com/images/Fighting.mp3

Thanks for listening.

[glasfen]

Okay, I just refreshed my ears by listening to the source. I think you have an interesting variation on the original. This has plenty of potential.

I notice that you have a little bit of soloing around 1:00 and 1:40. The rest of the song could use improvisation too, which would keep things from getting overly repetetive. I mean, this is battle music, it's bound to be repetetive, but a ReMix, in my opinion, needs plenty of originality (a la Fire Cross, to stay within the series).

I think the mix would also benefit from expansion of the sound (spread it out and make it louder). Some of the parts are more interesting parts (solos) are masked by the rhythm guitar.

Just my two cents' worth. Update?

[James_The_Composer]

Updated...

http://www.takutogame.com/images/Bloodied%20Sword.mp3

That's my final version.

[Rozovian]

Needs more punch, better synths, louder solos, variation, etc..

Like glasfen said, the solos are buried under the rhythm guitar - get them louder with EQ and... well, volume.

Drums could be a little stronger, at least crashes, snares, and kicks. Boost the crash volume/velocities, compress snare and kick, give the latter two a few dB's narrow EQ boost somewhere in the 50-200Hz region (look for the punchy frequency). Boost the volume on the whole track, preferably with a multiband compressor, just make sure to have a limiter at the end to prevent clipping.

Calling this final at this point is like shooting yourself in the foot. Don't do that.

[James_The_Composer]

I'm actually pretty satisfied with how it sounds. :-PI'm more of a melody person myself. I just focus on the music, not the sound.

If I brought out more of those things it would be like shooting myself in the foot. ;p

[Escariot]

Well, then... Be happy with it.

The whole "I just focus on the music, not the sound" bit just lost you any slight semblance of credibility that you had.

[NDN_Shadow]

Bring out the guitar out, the synth sound of the strings also doesn't work as well. Better samples are needed. The drums also have a very artificial quality to it.

It also sounds very repetitive. I would definitely add some more variety to it. Ending is also too abrupt.

[James_The_Composer]

Hmm, I couldn't agree with you there.

The drums, also, are how they are due to GM > Reason translation.

[Nubioso]

You realize this section is for feedback and not just praise right? Seems like everything everyones told you to help you out you've just said "Nope, that's wrong" and won't have any of it.

"I'm more of a melody person myself. I just focus on the music, not the sound."

That's a pretty horrible way to look at it. You'll never go anywhere making music that more than just you yourself will want to listen to if you shoot down everyones constructive criticism and apparently don't care about sound.....don't care about the sound!? That just blows my mind away.

[glasfen]

That's my final version.

I guess the question that's at the forefront of my mind is this: Do you want this to be an official ReMix?

If the mix is just for your own enjoyment and you posted to share, then that's fine. You can call it done whenever you please. But if you want to submit it to the judges for posting on the site... that's a different ball game. I would think (correct me if I'm wrong, folks) that most of us have offered suggestions to make your mix OCR-worthy.

If you want this to be an official ReMix one day, here's what you should do:

1. Listen to ReMixes of the same source, genre, style, and at random.

2a. If you believe your mix is as good or better than those out there (particularly newly posted stuff), as far as production, compositional value, originality, and adherence to the spirit of the source, then by all means submit it.

2b. If you don't think your mix is up to snuff, keep working on it. It's great that you posted in the WIP section so you could get feedback. Use whatever comments you think will get your mix ready for submittal.

3. Submit to the judges when you are certain you've got a winner or find yourself trying to perfect it by nit-picking tiny issues. Again, the WIP section is helpful here.

4a. Congrats! Your mix made it!

4b. The judges liked it, but not enough to post. Fix it.

4c. The judges didn't like it as much as you would have hoped. Re-evaluate your mix, starting from the ground up. If you're still passionate about it, take their advice and make it better.

I apologize if this is preachy. This is just what I've gathered from reading the polls and site info. Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

[James_The_Composer]

"I'm more of a melody person myself. I just focus on the music, not the sound."

That's a pretty horrible way to look at it. You'll never go anywhere making music that more than just you yourself will want to listen to if you shoot down everyones constructive criticism and apparently don't care about sound.....don't care about the sound!? That just blows my mind away.

That's a GREAT way to look at it! I'm not shooting it all down, just the part that had the drama. Something along the lines of

"You might as well shoot yourself in the foot if you consider this to be finished."

Is it really that bad I wonder? Is it a generalization I wonder? And then

"You need better samples."

Ok, I'll just shell off $1000 for a new sample library. x_x I love how it sounds, and of course I'm taking the criticism but that doesn't mean I don't like it how it is right now.

Most people think that their appreciation of a certain sound isn't defined by themselves. Of course it is. If you look at older video game music, I know you'll find songs that you prefer in the original sound over any other sound.

Tastes can be acquired by will.

And of course I'll use what's given as best I can. That's just the final version right there.

[jabond23]

Hmmm.... Do i DARE post a comment on this?!?!?

Anyways, i think it sounds OK, but like everyone else mentioned, there's just not enough force behind this. All the instruments just sound like they are there, but not jumping out at you. Its funny, cause this mix makes me think your trying to make an old school ring tone of the source...haha...anyways...

However, it seems you are satisfied with the way sounds now. So more power too you...

[Nubioso]

"You might as well shoot yourself in the foot if you consider this to be finished."

Is it really that bad I wonder? Is it a generalization I wonder

"You need better samples."

Ok, I'll just shell off $1000 for a new sample library. x_x I love how it sounds, and of course I'm taking the criticism but that doesn't mean I don't like it how it is right now.

Man, you're looking at it from a completely "F you all" defensive stand point. No one is saying "go shell out $1000 for better samples"....if you look hard enough, you can find great samples on the internet for free.

They even have a whole thread on here helping you to find synths, plugins, samples, etc..etc... right here:

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4556&page=15

As for the "Is it a generalization I wonder?"

Hmm, probably not man. You're getting critiques from people who've listened to a ton of remixes on here, have heard what's considered passing by judges and what's not and they are basing their opinion on that.

So why your preach about tastes and what defines people is.....ehh...poetic I guess....it still sounds like you're just being defensive instead of open to response.

but whatever.......like everyone has said, send it to the judges and good luck to you. I'm not gonna deny that I've heard some (what I consider) bad remixes that the judges have passed, so go for it.

[Rozovian]

Ok, I'll just shell off $1000 for a new sample library. x_x I love how it sounds, and of course I'm taking the criticism but that doesn't mean I don't like it how it is right now.

...

And of course I'll use what's given as best I can. That's just the final version right there.

Not gonna repeat anything that's already been said, just curious of how you're gonna use feedback specific to this mix if you've already made the final version.

I've got loads of songs I like, old songs, with terrible samples, terrible processing, mixing... I like them, but if I had been interested in learning to improve the way I am today, I wouldn't have called them final versions. Come to think of it, I don't think I declared any of them "final version". That's your mistake. Then again, I don't think I showed ppl them much, which slowed down my learning and music-making progress. That was my mistake.

If you're here to learn, get constructive criticism and all that jazz, don't dismiss the criticism. Ask if you have questions, but don't dismiss criticism as a mere matter of taste. That'll only make you popular with the trolls, not the rest of us.

As for lack of samples and other resources, you've already been pointed to some free resources. Use them.

[TheHands]

Your mixing is weird. It sounds very washed out, and the main melody is really, really low. It's almost like there is no melody with it as low as it is.

The drums bore me. I'm not sure why.

Far too repeatitive as it is, unless the lead guitar goes up in volume. It sounds like it needs someone singing over it, or some balls somehow.

Reminds me of disco with heavier drums. Wouldn't really call it rock just yet.

Needs work still. I know you won't listen, but now I feel better as a human being for trying to help.

[SnappleMan]

Fake guitars are a huge turnoff. Also, the song just starts. No buildup, nothing different to get you into it... just the same boring groove beginning to end.

You do have some decent ideas in there, but overall this is just a glorified MIDI file that doesn't have the structure of a "song" just yet. Calling this done is a big mistake. The weakest thing here are those god awful drums. Not the sound of the samples, but the sequence. It's so boring and dull. You need to create more interesting things with the rhythm section, or reinforce it properly with your rhythm guitars and a bassline that keeps things going. No direction at all.

The main thing here is the lack of musical diversity. There is nothing interesting going on musically, just bland overall. I understand the "melody over production" argument, but you are seriously lacking in both aspects with this track. Think about reconsidering calling this done. Seriously.

[Demonstray]

I think your sounds are really good, save for the guitar. The drums could definitely be better, but I started out with FL Studio's RealDrumKit anyway and have since built up my library.

Anyway, as for the guitar...I'll tell you the same thing that Nekofrog and others on here told me:

There are a lot of guitarists on OCRemix, and most of them including myself would be glad to help you out. Just say the word, and you're guaranteed someone'll step up.

[Tensei]

First off, get off your high horse and do a reality check. Compare this side-to-side to some of OCR's better rock/metal remixes (stuff by people like Sixto and Snappleman(<3) comes to mind), then come back and tell me this is 'done'. It's not, I can tell you that.

I can feel what you're going for with the Rock+ Orchestral strings thing, but the samples in general are just too lo-fi to handle this and the fake guitars basically kill this. Drums are bearable samplewise but I agree with Snapple about the sequencing.

The arrangement isn't outright bad, it's just quite bland and repetitive, and definitely not good enough to make up for the lackluster production. I can hear lots of midi-ripping going on, with only minor variations on the source. No dynamics or tension build-up going on either, what you have here is basically two and a half minutes of the same meandering groove.

Mixwise it's mud mud mud. The 'lead guitars' are panned to the same spots as the rhythm and it all interferes, with the lead being barely audible in many spots. Drowning everything in reverb only makes things worse. Also, bass panned hard right?

[Nabeel Ansari]

It sounds a lot like the original at a slower pace, and then it turns into solo.

What I say probably means nothing,

but if it's gonna be a rock version of THIS song it should be a little faster.

[James_The_Composer]

I can feel what you're going for with the Rock+ Orchestral strings thing, but the samples in general are just too lo-fi to handle this and the fake guitars basically kill this.

This still doesn't make sense to me. What is one supposed to do, have the money to shell off $500 for Ministry of Rock?

The point is to use GM MIDI to create a good well-rounded rock sound.

Anyways, i think it sounds OK, but like everyone else mentioned, there's just not enough force behind this. All the instruments just sound like they are there, but not jumping out at you. Its funny, cause this mix makes me think your trying to make an old school ring tone of the source...haha...anyways...So why your preach about tastes and what defines people is.....ehh...poetic I guess....it still sounds like you're just being defensive instead of open to response.

I really am open to response, just not "get better samples, shell out more money".

Secondly, there are no free rock samples that can achieve a sound like this one without dsp effects. Using plugins, which seems to be where everyone is going with this (use a real guitar, forget using your sampler), seems to be where everyone is at with this.

Yes, there are many re-mixers here that use real guitar, but I am not one of them and I will NOT be one of them.

I do appreciate a lot of the critique though. I am listening, and it is making me much better, but a lot of it is just "sorry, it's not good enough. You need better samples." Their basis is "You gotta sound better for the judges.". I don't give a damn about the judges!

As for lack of samples and other resources, you've already been pointed to some free resources. Use them.

Again, free samples can't achieve this kind of sound as far as I know. Plugins maybe, but samples usually can't....

Thanks though.

Needs work still. I know you won't listen, but now I feel better as a human being for trying to help.

Thanks. x_x

I don't understand...just 2 or 3 years ago MIDI Samples seemed to work perfectly. They were used in professional productions a lot more. I really liked the music in Naruto for example.

The music in Naruto Shippuden, though, uses all real instruments. I like sampled strings. They can have less reverb, and be more video-gamey rather than dramatic real instruments, which aren't working as well for it. The focus used to be more on the music and now it's more on the sound.

Why do people decide to have a preference about them?

Anyway, as for the guitar...I'll tell you the same thing that Nekofrog and others on here told me:

There are a lot of guitarists on OCRemix, and most of them including myself would be glad to help you out. Just say the word, and you're guaranteed someone'll step up.

Thank you.

[SnappleMan]

This still doesn't make sense to me. What is one supposed to do, have the money to shell off $500 for Ministry of Rock?

The point is to use GM MIDI to create a good well-rounded rock sound.

I really am open to response, just not "get better samples, shell out more money".

Secondly, there are no free rock samples that can achieve a sound like this one without dsp effects. Using plugins, which seems to be where everyone is going with this (use a real guitar, forget using your sampler), seems to be where everyone is at with this.

Yes, there are many re-mixers here that use real guitar, but I am not one of them and I will NOT be one of them.

I do appreciate a lot of the critique though. I am listening, and it is making me much better, but a lot of it is just "sorry, it's not good enough. You need better samples." Their basis is "You gotta sound better for the judges.". I don't give a damn about the judges!

Again, free samples can't achieve this kind of sound as far as I know. Plugins maybe, but samples usually can't....

Thanks though.

Thanks. x_x

I don't understand...just 2 or 3 years ago MIDI Samples seemed to work perfectly. They were used in professional productions a lot more. I really liked the music in Naruto for example.

The music in Naruto Shippuden, though, uses all real instruments. I like sampled strings. They can have less reverb, and be more video-gamey rather than dramatic real instruments, which aren't working as well for it. The focus used to be more on the music and now it's more on the sound.

Why do people decide to have a preference about them?

Thank you.

None of this explains why the arrangement is so weak. Do you plan on ignoring it and hoping it'll go away? Sorry to be so harsh, but in terms of musical content, you have failed

[TheHands]

I don't care if the judges like your work. I care if I do, as a listener. Right now you're down one.

You don't need money for samples, you don't even need amazing samples. Playing with them can yield some interesting effects and sounds, some of the coolest things I've found by accident were made with playing with wavelengths and release times.

Also, as I'd mentioned in my previous post, you need to make the lead stand out, otherwise I just hear the same stuff over and over, get bored, and listen to the original or Nobuo's rock version. If the thing that makes the piece move isn't noticeable, then it isn't moving. As of right now it fades into the background and is consumed by everything else.

MIDI samples are fine, if you play with them. If you don't, then they just sound like bad video game music. The sound is just as important as the music, because the sound is the way we take in the music. If you have the Zelda theme being played through nails on a black board, are you going to listen to the melody, or the grating sound?

We're not saying these things to be douche bags to you, we want you to succeed just as much as you do (well, some of us, by the time this thread is finished). You don't have to listen to us, but you need to understand that we aren't attacking you.

[James_The_Composer]

None of this explains why the arrangement is so weak. Do you plan on ignoring it and hoping it'll go away? Sorry to be so harsh, but in terms of musical content, you have failed

That's pretty harsh. ;/

I don't care if the judges like your work. I care if I do, as a listener. Right now you're down one.

You don't need money for samples, you don't even need amazing samples. Playing with them can yield some interesting effects and sounds, some of the coolest things I've found by accident were made with playing with wavelengths and release times.

Also, as I'd mentioned in my previous post, you need to make the lead stand out, otherwise I just hear the same stuff over and over, get bored, and listen to the original or Nobuo's rock version. If the thing that makes the piece move isn't noticeable, then it isn't moving. As of right now it fades into the background and is consumed by everything else.

MIDI samples are fine, if you play with them. If you don't, then they just sound like bad video game music. The sound is just as important as the music, because the sound is the way we take in the music. If you have the Zelda theme being played through nails on a black board, are you going to listen to the melody, or the grating sound?

We're not saying these things to be douche bags to you, we want you to succeed just as much as you do (well, some of us, by the time this thread is finished). You don't have to listen to us, but you need to understand that we aren't attacking you.

Thank you, but my tastes seem to be way different than most people here....

There seems to be a lot of focus on what is wrong with music within this community and not a lot of focus on what is right. I like the people here that have helped me by saying 'you have to bring this out more' and 'the pannings off', and 'you could use this here or this here'.

I kind of want to know things like, if I brought in analog synthesizers how I could keep the rocky-ness feeling of the mix.

I actually love the sound. I really do. I'll call it final, but I am absorbing the information given like a spundge, I promise those who have given their time to post something up. Thanks.

I will not be afraid of the sound that people have called before "muddy". I haven't been able to find many songs at all that have used things like distorted organs and such. It can become a habit, to be ''afraid'' of certain techniques. As you start to avoid them, your music starts to sound a certain way and no other.

[SnappleMan]

You can keep ignoring the arrangement argument all you want, I won't let you live it down.

Panning, EQ, compression,$10,000 worth of the best samples out there wont help your song if it lacks musical content. You need to rewrite it so it has feeling, emotion, a reason to live. Not just exist start to finish with nothing in between.

[James_The_Composer]

You can keep ignoring the arrangement argument all you want, I won't let you live it down.

Panning, EQ, compression,$10,000 worth of the best samples out there wont help your song if it lacks musical content. You need to rewrite it so it has feeling, emotion, a reason to live. Not just exist start to finish with nothing in between.

So your not arguing the point of better sounds? What would you suggest then?

edit: Ah, man musical content again? (sorry didn't see that) I don't agree. I think that it has a lot of musical content. Why? Because the notes that are hit are the exact notes that came out of what I heard in my imagination.