m68030 Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Side note: I'm looking at starting a Silent Hill themed MUD. If I did, who would be interested in supporting such a project? It would be run on the BBS I run, http://silenthillbbs.dyndns.org/bbs.htm For those who are not familiar with MUDs, it's essentially a combination of a chatroom and an MMORPG. The world would be able for users to add to it, creating new locations and what not. Basically people involved would be creating the town in which to live and interact (also fight off monsters). Anyone interested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 I would, buuuuuuuuut....I dunno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifirit Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 An MUD of the Silent Hill world would work if the members are good storytellers. Truthfully, I've seen it done before and response wasn't that great. I just don't think this is the type of game for that. Eccles, my theory about Laura is unconclusive. I was trying to adhere to the overall theory of projection. But like I said before, Silent Hill 2 makes it hard to distinguish what is real and what is not. However, as I consider the evidence, there is a greater overall amount that suggests Laura is real. Mostly from her interactions with not only the characters, but the environments as well, such as locking James in the Hospital room. Still, this evidence is open to interpretation of whether it actually happened or was only percieved. i.e. The door was never really locked, James only thought it was since he heard Laura lock it. I really can't say which is true right now. If you have any insight into the matter, I would be happy to hear it. I'm still trying to put things together and any additional input would be helpful. Anyway, I've being looking into Silent Hill 3 recently, because several story elements have boggled me since the beginning and have conflicted with my theory about Silent Hill 1. Well, I've been trying to understand the overall plot of this game and here's what I have so far. Silent Hill 3 & 1 Spoilers Claudia (age 6) became friends with Alessa Gilespie (age 7) while in school. I believe that because Lenard was involved with the cult, Claudia was allowed to see Alessa at the Hope House/Gilespie residence. These two friendly children enjoyed their time together, well, as much as two abused children could in a small rural town. Then, the two were torn apart by the fire when Dahlia wanted to extract the power of god. Like most people, Claudia assumed the worst. She was gravely heartbroken and had noone to turn to. So, she turned to her "faith." (All this occurs before you even put in SH1.) But then something strange happened. Alessa was brought back to life as the Mother of God. Mind that Claudia didn't know Alessa was in the hospital the whole time. Anyway, Dahlia merged the two halves of god and tried to open paradise. However, Harry's actions prevented this from happening. He then escaped with the baby that Alessa gave him. I can't explain why, but the cult knew what was happening in Silent Hill, even Claudia. Fearing that she would lose her only friend again, Claudia tried to get Alessa back. It took her 17 years to find her, but Claudia eventually found her friend. However, things change after such a long time. Heather forgot her past and Claudia became twisted by hate, jealousy and self-righteousness. Claudia confused happiness with Alessa and paradise. She thought she could find love from her god. She murdered her best friend's father to try to gain her happiness. Claudia became more of a monster than any of those Heather saw. There were those who tried to stop her. Vincent lost his life trying to prevent Claudia from corrupting their god. Douglas became aware of her actions and tried to stop her himself. He became injured in the process. Lenard tried to stop her too, but she imprisoned him in the hospital. Claudia hurt anyone who got in her way and had no second thoughts about it. But, eventually her actions came back to her. The pain she caused Heather lead to her demise. That is where the story ends. So, it seems that SH3 is the story of Claudia's attempt to find happiness and her path of destruction as told though Heather's eyes. Sad and a little disappointing. I'll bring up some questions about this game in the next post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Still, this evidence is open to interpretation of whether it actually happened or was only percieved. i.e. The door was never really locked, James only thought it was since he heard Laura lock it. I really can't say which is true right now. Laura DID lock the door, though... James tried it and it wouldnt open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarZander Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Wait... I thought Claudia said Alessa was her sister? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 the solution is simple. Look in the manual for the last names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarZander Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 the solution is simple.Look in the manual for the last names. That could work, if their last names were actually mentioned in the manual, which they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 I say, that's dash cunning of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Oh yes...a notice to whoever it was wanted to know who that track came from in the SH2 soundtrack that wasnt in the game (Terror in the depths of the fog)... It's on the DVD that comes with the game. At the part when it talks about casting the voices of the characters. ...just thought you might like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynsent Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 (As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!") That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall... [Risks of spoiling...] I have to put a theory of mine about the James/Maria relation. Someone's been saying that James is supposed to leave the town with her but that then he realises that she is nothing but his own view of Mary. Considering the overall theory that Silent Hill is a place where your fears, memories and feelings become material, we can understand easilly that Maria is a creation of James's wicked mind. But we have to notice that she is the character that has the biggest amount of symbols around her. Come to think of it : When James first meets Maria (in the park), she is surrounded by fog (which is a symbol of hallucination and/or memory), which supports the fact that she is not real, even if she seems real at this point. Then we can notice the symbol of her double killing and the fact that she gets mad at James (and her "amnesia"). This is (from my POV) a symbol of James's brainstorm between his willing to forget Mary's death and his eternal love to her (and obviously a metaphore of his own sin). The fact that Maria resurrects and forgets about the scene where she got stabbed represents , for me, the fact that James wants to retrieve his wife and his desire of being forgiven by her. Last point (Hurray !! ^^ lol) : We know that James first wanted to escape with Maria (didn't he promised her ? ). But as he realises that she is his own representation of Mary, he realises that this is gonna be impossible... Then it explains (IMO) why she is stuck in the labyrinth's jail (the labyrinth symbolysing for me the fact that James is getting a huge mind struggle to understand why he is stuck in such a hell). This Jail then seems to be the symbol of Maria's unbreakable link to Silent Hill and the fact James is coming completely realize that she is just a mirrored image he made of Mary... Phewww... Finally reached it ! . Now I'm gonna go thinking about my overall theory that the town creates images of the characters' subconscious and I hope this sounds satisfying to you... Next one will be more nerdy, lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifirit Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Silent Hill 2 & 3 Spoilers Wait... I thought Claudia said Alessa was her sister? Easiest answer: Read Claudia's birthday card. That explains the bond between Claudia and Alessa. Besides, the term sister is also used in the casette tape found in Father Vincent's room. Doesn't mean Claudia is Vincent and the other lady's sister, now does it? That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall... According to the order in which Eddie explains his story, he shot the dog first. As he was watching it die, someone found him and (I presume) saw what he had done. Fearing punishment for his actions, he shot the guy in the knee and ran away. I assume that was recently before he came to Silent Hill. We don't have any evidence that he killed the football player (the guy who got shot in the knee as I call him). It might be good to provide some evidence of your theory and explain its meaning and your reasoning. I have to put a theory of mine about the James/Maria relation. Someone's been saying that James is supposed to leave the town with her but that then he realises that she is nothing but his own view of Mary. Considering the overall theory that Silent Hill is a place where your fears, memories and feelings become material, we can understand easilly that Maria is a creation of James's wicked mind. But we have to notice that she is the character that has the biggest amount of symbols around her. Come to think of it : When James first meets Maria (in the park), she is surrounded by fog (which is a symbol of hallucination and/or memory), which supports the fact that she is not real, even if she seems real at this point. Your evidence here is a little weak in trying to reinforce the theory of Silent Hill as place that projects a person's inner thoughts. Though, Maria is surrounded by fog in the park when we meet her, so is Laura and Angela. The entire town is surrounded by fog. Does that mean the whole town is imaginary? Is the association of fog with hallucination and memory strong evidence that Maria is not real? Then we can notice the symbol of her double killing and the fact that she gets mad at James (and her "amnesia"). This is (from my POV) a symbol of James's brainstorm between his willing to forget Mary's death and his eternal love to her (and obviously a metaphore of his own sin). The fact that Maria resurrects and forgets about the scene where she got stabbed represents , for me, the fact that James wants to retrieve his wife and his desire of being forgiven by her. I don't think your evidence is supporting your theory here. The fact that Maria keeps dying has a greater representation of Mary punishing James for his actions, by losing Maria over and over again. Though it does bring out James' feelings of love for Mary, it's mostly used to hurt James by re-opening his wounds. Her "amnesia" is just a tactic to confuse James about his sanity, to get him to lower his guard and to allow Maria to seduse him, exposing his weaknesses. Last point (Hurray !! ^^ lol) : We know that James first wanted to escape with Maria (didn't he promised her ? ). But as he realises that she is his own representation of Mary, he realises that this is gonna be impossible... Then it explains (IMO) why she is stuck in the labyrinth's jail (the labyrinth symbolysing for me the fact that James is getting a huge mind struggle to understand why he is stuck in such a hell). This Jail then seems to be the symbol of Maria's unbreakable link to Silent Hill and the fact James is coming completely realize that she is just a mirrored image he made of Mary... I like the theory about the jail representing the unbreakable link to Silent Hill. I think mostly because of how Ernest asked Maria if she believed in fate. She responded no, but after speaking with Ernest, she started to realize her role in James' search. Sort of that she was destined to meet James and fulfill her role in that town. You see, Maria's desire was to escape the town and find other people (she even tried to kill herself to escape her destiny), but ultimately, she gave up on it and went on to play her role. More people should play the "Born from a Wish" scenario because it gives more insight into Maria, the town and the issue of the gods. EDIT: On a very enthusiastic sidenote, keep an eye out for "Siren" (or "Forbidden Siren" in Europe). It's another survival horror game with the focus on psychological thriller. It's being directed by the director of the original Silent Hill, Keiichirou Toyama. It looks pretty scary and I hear has some cool elements added to the game play, such as "Sight-Jacking" (which is a psychic ability that allows you see through the eyes of other characters and enemies). I have a trailer here. (Link Dead) It's 21.9 megs. If the server is busy, wait a while and try again. EDIT 2: (04-27-2006) You can visit the official Siren website to view trailers and previews of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynsent Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 Well I think the fog in the entire city IS a symbol of the fact that the city is not ENTIRELY real I think the city (its structure and houses) is real but I think that this huge fog covering the city is the symbolof the characters's hallucination. Here is not a real theory... rather an opinion to begin my own theory... But I'v read some really interesting things so far that could lead me to another way... To be continued when you say that my theory about Maria's deads and rebirths doesn't make sense, I propose you to think about it twice... If James Killed his wife and has remorses, all that Maria lives in Silent Hill could be what happened to Mary and what he would like to have happened then... Gosh!! It's 4.50 AM in Paris and I'm gettin' tired .... Gonna sleep... Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night10194 Posted March 7, 2004 Author Share Posted March 7, 2004 A Silent Hill MUD? Could be neat...I'd be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlothropX Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 You guys are getting weirdly complex. Maria dies in front of James repeatedly because she is a projection of his memories of Mary. She starts off as a fantasy, embodying all of the good things about Mary, but James can't keep her from also embodying Mary's darkness (implied illness, death, and attempts to make him feel guilty for not caring enough about her). Mary didn't create Maria, and doesn't "use" her for anything. From the "Maria" ending: Mary: And that’s why you needed this "Maria" person? Pretty clearly blaming James for creating Maria. In all of the other endings, Maria tries to convince James to accept her as a replacement for Mary. The only slight bit of evidence for some genuine connection between Mary and Maria is Maria's musing that she feels a strange desire to protect Laura (when James never knew about Laura). James: You really seem to care about her. Do you know her?Maria: I never met her before. I just feel sorry for her. She’s all alone... And for some reason... I feel like it’s up to me to protect her. But then this could just as easily be chalked up to James's notion of how Mary/Maria would feel about a little girl in a dangerous situation. It could go either way, but all the other evidence points to Maria being created solely from James's fantasies and repressed nightmares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 (As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!") That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall... Again I take evidence from the silent hill DVD... The character designer says that the guy in the chair is James. now, we all know that, right? Weird dead guy in the chair is James' polygon model... But the character designer also goes on to say that this wasn't a trick used to save polygons...this is one of James' nightmares which has come true. Also, it represents dying in front of a television...as does the little bit in Room 312 later on in the game. Maria dies in front of James repeatedly because she is a projection of his memories of Mary Maria dies so many times because that is James' punishment for killing Mary. Silent hill 2 is symbolic in the way that each character has their own personal demons to fight...look at the bedman that attacks angela... Each character is being punished for murdering somebody (or something)...and because James feels bad about killing Mary, he's forced to see her die over and over and over... -edit- As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario... She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynsent Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 (As for the guy shot in the appartment being shot by Eddie, I'll have to challenge that one, since Eddie shot the guy in the knee. He tells you in the meat locker "He'll have a hard time playing football on that knee now!") That doesn't mean he didn't put an end to his misery by shootin him in the head from behind... he's a madman afterall... Again I take evidence from the silent hill DVD... The character designer says that the guy in the chair is James. now, we all know that, right? Weird dead guy in the chair is James' polygon model... But the character designer also goes on to say that this wasn't a trick used to save polygons...this is one of James' nightmares which has come true. Also, it represents dying in front of a television...as does the little bit in Room 312 later on in the game. Ok. Kick me if you judge me dumb but again that doesn't make evidence he wasn't shot in the head from behind. (I don't forget he's also been shot in the knees) *** SPOILER I can't help but wondering about one thing... In SH3, there's a scene in a library where Vincent meets Heather and tells her this : Vincent : You're the worst person in this room. You come here and enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out. You feel excited when you step on them and snuff out their livesHeather : Are you talking about the monsters ? Vincent : Monsters ? They looked like monsters to you ? **Heather is shocked** Vincent : Don't worry. It's just a joke... (insane smile) Do you think he was really joking ??? O_o° Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 SPOILERI can't help but wondering about one thing... In SH3, there's a scene in a library where Vincent meets Heather and tells her this : Vincent : You're the worst person in this room. You come here and enjoy spilling their blood and listening to them cry out. You feel excited when you step on them and snuff out their livesHeather : Are you talking about the monsters ? Vincent : Monsters ? They looked like monsters to you ? **Heather is shocked** Vincent : Don't worry. It's just a joke... (insane smile) Do you think he was really joking ??? O_o° That part REALLY pissed me off! There I was thinking that maybe they'd insert some HUGE moral quandry in the SH series, really making us question what we were doing, but no, it's all a fucking joke. Talk about smothered hopes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarZander Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 -edit-As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario... She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now. Are there any differences between the X-Box verion and the PS2 version of Born from a wish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarZander Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 As for where maria came from...the X-Box version of the game explains it in the "Born from a wish" scenario...She represents James' desire to see mary again...but also represents his punishment, as I said just now. If I recall, the Greatest Hits release of SH2 for PS2 includes the extra "Restless Dreams" scenario as well as the extra endings. Any confirmation on this? Restless Dreams? Is that the same as Born from a Wish? Atleast here in Europe, there was a Silent Hill 2: Director's Cut edition released where the UFO ending was added, and the extra "Born from a wish" scenario where you play as Maria. Btw, that Born from a wish scenario was the scariest Silent Hill experience I've had. A big part of that was becuase there were no radio or flashlight. Gonna have to try playing the rest of the games without those... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifirit Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Btw, that Born from a wish scenario was the scariest Silent Hill experience I've had. A big part of that was becuase there were no radio or flashlight. Gonna have to try playing the rest of the games without those... You're gonna have to. They're removing the radio from the series. I guess the programmers are tired of having to incorporate it into the game. By the way, the PS2 Greatest Hits version is the same version as the X-Box Restless Dreams version. I think I said this back in the beginning, but Silent Hill 2 reflects what you bring to it, i.e. how you play the game and how you interpret your surroundings. Every interpretation is unique and that is the fun in playing it. (As Israfel put it, it's video game art.) However, you are directed to certain conclusions based on the events that occur. My goal was to look at all these events to try to reach the most appropriate conclusion. I want to include as many viewpoints as possible. However, not all will fit because of contrary or inconclusive evidence. Also, there are a lot of unspoken assumptions made that I want to avoid. With that said, I didn't say that anybody's theories didn't make sense, just that the cases and evidence they were showing didn't fit the conclusion. Either, there were unspoken assumptions made, missing pieces of explaination, or the reasoning that lead to their conclusion was disjointed. I know that I can be held to fault, but I try to offer as much as I can in my posts. So, trying to tackle on the subject of Maria right now is complicated. I need to think more about the her character and motivations before I say anything else. To tell you the truth, I really should set up a character analysis of each person/player/role in the game individually and then try to tie every one together to gain the overall perspective. One last thing, when considering Maria's feelings about Laura, also consider Maria's feelings about Amy. Though seemingly different, they do share a lot of strange coincidences. There are also some small details to note about Amy from Maria's conversations with Ernest. I'll leave you to discuss the meanings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlothropX Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Maria dies so many times because that is James' punishment for killing Mary. Silent hill 2 is symbolic in the way that each character has their own personal demons to fight...look at the bedman that attacks angela... Each character is being punished for murdering somebody (or something)...and because James feels bad about killing Mary, he's forced to see her die over and over and over... Well, to clarify, the other half of why Maria was born of James's wish was to punish him for his repressed crime. James: I was weak. That’s why I needed you.... Needed someone to punish me for my sins.... But that’s all over now.... I know the truth....Now it’s time to end this. So, Maria isn't a form of punishment consciously sent down against James, but rather his masochistic picking at the scab of denial. While the Old Gods do slumber in Silent Hill, we have no indication that they spend a lot of attention passing judgment on the who-smothered-whom details of mortal life. Rather, by the nature of the place, people create and battle their own personal demons. A somewhat fine point, maybe, but it ruins the entire point of the series when people personify the forces of Silent Hill, as if these ancient gods had nothing better to do than watch James on their demonic TVs for a few years, and decided that the feller needed to learn his-self a lesson. It destroys all of the psychological themes of the games to misconstrue that all of the events are orchestrated by an external entity. Well, other than the dog in the control room. But all of this should be pretty obvious. Can't we discuss some stickier points, like whether Laura was real or not? I'm in the real camp. She eats pizza with Eddie, while Maria makes lame excuses to avoid entering the bowling alley. Maria gets ill and has to stay behind right before James catches up to Laura, preventing them from meeting. We only have Maria's word that she chased Laura after the bowling alley. In summation, Maria maintains a pattern of avoiding interaction with anyone but James, while Laura is free to interact with anyone. Not iron-clad, but about the best relevant evidence I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Because Maria isn't meant to be seen by anyone else. Of course, this doesn't explain why you can see angela's nightmares (Bedmen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedrake Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 What's funny about the born from a wish scenario is that you get a 10 round revolver. >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynsent Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Because Maria isn't meant to be seen by anyone else.Of course, this doesn't explain why you can see angela's nightmares (Bedmen) ...Crap ! My theory tears down with this constatation... Anyway it was really not something relyable so... Have to build another ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccles Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Theory +1 On the silent hill soundtrack, the track which plays when Maria dies is entitled 'Magdalene' Now, I dont know how many people know their bible stuffs...but Mary Magdalene was of the people who found Jesus had come back to life. Mary Magdalane, see? (Mary!) And in some stories, she's called Mary of Magdalane (or Maria Magdalane!) Just something fun to think about. Have I mentionned the silent hill medley I penned in ICT today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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