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Night10194

Silent Hill Discussion

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Actually, the tape is cut...

You pass through it on your way to Blue Creek...cause on the way you have to fight three straight jacket skins (Two walkers, one hiding under a car)

I was assuming you knew what happened if you tried to avoid getting the radio and cross the police tape. It only breaks after you defeat the monster under the bridge. My reasoning is that it's not to let you through, but to release the monsters waiting behind the police tape.

Or Harry WAS wanted there and Dhalia was not.

Remember how Alessa thanks Harry as she's dying?

True, but I guess I was accounting for those who didn't believe that theory.

Well I'm at college right now :P

They dont like you using MSN messenger.

And now I gots to get back to class.

I'll be back later.

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Personally, I think that Maria was born from the mist and has the body of a monster (particularly the final boss). The town tried to bring Mary's soul into this body, which is why she has Mary's memories (expressed to James in the prison cell). The town, thoughout the game (both the main and sub-scenario), is communicating with Maria telling her about James and Laura and her "fate."

I think Ernest's question to Maria about whether she believed in fate or not is important in this matter. By not making the wishes or memories or whatever from the town not a part of her, but merely communicated to her, it allows Maria to choose her fate. Ultimately, she "chooses" to follow the town's call.

However, this is again a philosophical issue here. You could believe that she is not free to choose her path; that the memories of the town are inside her and eventually take over; that it is fate. So, really it is up to you to decide whether or not you believe in fate.

Still, it will then influence your theory about Maria in the rest of the game, because now we have to ask if Maria is acting on her own or just being puppetted by the town. Choose carefully and consider all the consequences.

I think that the distinction between the two options is rather slim. If Maria is acting on her own, but is created with a specific set of memories and desires, then it really isn't much different from being a puppet. It seems like the only reason Maria demonstrates "free will" at all in BFAW is that James is still distant, and her greater reason for being hasn't been called into focus yet.

Another concept is that the single bullet in the revolver is for James, and that only her meeting with Ernest causes Maria to toss aside her "fate" of seeking revenge for a crime she only has vague memories of.

The suicidal stripper theory works also, but I'm not too fond of it. I mean, if Maria were on some level a normal flesh-and-blood person, how is it she's killed repeatedly and comes back smiling? That she's a pure creation of the town in reaction to James's memories and guilt is a more acceptable proposition, in my opinion.

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Starzander, ifrit and myself had a couple hours chatting today in which we came up with a bunch of ideas for the site.

Currently, the title of the page stands as "Brookhaven. Commit yourself"

And we've been discussing variious things which we can put on the site...currently, the majority of which falls to me :P

Star: I should have a skeleton site for the theories tomorrow. If I can take my laptop out with me, I'm sure I can.

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The suicidal stripper theory works also, but I'm not too fond of it. I mean, if Maria were on some level a normal flesh-and-blood person, how is it she's killed repeatedly and comes back smiling? That she's a pure creation of the town in reaction to James's memories and guilt is a more acceptable proposition, in my opinion.

I was just saying that the stripper Maria was a model/ vessel for the town's will. Since she's been overwritten by the town's will, it's pretty safe to assume that she's no longer alive but rather a meat puppet for the forces that be in the town, like the zombie nurses or pyramid head. It can be confusing at times but I only pieced it together from observations made from the SH2 2nd scenario and the poster seen in SH3. If there was no link with the poster to SH2, then why would the programmers have placed it there ? All we got to work with is the clues the guys at Konami left and like dectectives working on a case, our assumptions fill in the holes. As a more cynical person, my bias has coloured the situation differently than how you would of, in instances like the origins of the monsters and how Laura's reaction to them suggests how their act. The poin is that I'm not shooting you down here but rather telling you to keep all options open, since new evidence can appear and throw things into disarray. In this case, no single representation is 100% right for the game since none is given, so try to take everything you see on a forum like this with a grain of salt.

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Holy crap. Silent Hill had more treasures than I ever imagined... People will exceed our bandwidth in a few minutes, just to see all the wonderful things we've found. Right, Eccles?

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On the suicidal stripper theory and coming back from the dead:

I'm taking the easy way out on this one, but it could be all considered a matter of perspective. Remember the holes James jumps through? Who's too say the fall wouldn't kill him (And I still like reffering to that Silent Hill ending. Hell would truly be not realising that you're dead already. Think about how big a mind-fuck it would be to wake up one day, faced by indescribable monstrosities when in fact you died the night before)? Essentially, the town is one huge mind fuck. We never actually see Maria getting stabbed by Pyramid Head's spear during the hospital chase scene (Remember, you get game over if she does die during the chase). As far as I recall, the only moment where you actually witness her death is near the end, with the two Pyramid Heads.

Finally, I don't think the demon in sheep's clothing theory works. In one ending, you actually face off Mary, not Maria. And we already established that Maria dies by the hand of the two Pyramid Heads.

Just my opinion, but I think that considering Maria as a normal person, not a monster, but who's being controlled and manipulated by the town to make James suffer is far more entertaining and amusing. Kind of adds to the humanity of it all. It's very possible that Maria loses it, hence the dialogue in the labyrinth, thanks to the towns influence (Remember, there too, you don't witness her die. You only find the body later). If anything, one thing that has to be known due to the way how monsters are perceived differently from person to person is that nothing should be taken at face value.

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Major Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

On the suicidal stripper theory and coming back from the dead:

I'm taking the easy way out on this one, but it could be all considered a matter of perspective. Remember the holes James jumps through? Who's too say the fall wouldn't kill him (And I still like reffering to that Silent Hill ending. Hell would truly be not realising that you're dead already. Think about how big a mind-fuck it would be to wake up one day, faced by indescribable monstrosities when in fact you died the night before)?

Again, this is the major split in theories. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is just a matter of personal philosophy. There are those who think everything is just a projection of James' mind and those who believe that everything is real, but influenced by the town. I tend to believe the projection theory, but I also wanted to explore the other in order to gain a better perspective.

Essentially, the town is one huge mind fuck. We never actually see Maria getting stabbed by Pyramid Head's spear during the hospital chase scene (Remember, you get game over if she does die during the chase). As far as I recall, the only moment where you actually witness her death is near the end, with the two Pyramid Heads.

If Maria dies by James' hand, then she doesn't fullfill her purpose: to make James suffer by witnessing her taken away from him by another's hands. Also, the game is causal. If you don't do certain actions, other actions won't occur. Such as the roof of the hospital. Only when Maria is in room S3, does the door unlock. So consequently, if Maria doesn't make it to the elevator, it won't work. With no where to go, we presume James dies as well.

Finally, I don't think the demon in sheep's clothing theory works. In one ending, you actually face off Mary, not Maria. And we already established that Maria dies by the hand of the two Pyramid Heads.

Silly rabbit, you should realize that you fight Maria in every ending (excluding the Dog and UFO endings). Maria just pretends to be Mary. That is because James chooses Maria over Mary. Whomever James chooses by the end, Maria will act like the other. (It only happens that in only one ending James chooses Maria.) Maria is just playing the role of "Final Temptation."

Just my opinion, but I think that considering Maria as a normal person, not a monster, but who's being controlled and manipulated by the town to make James suffer is far more entertaining and amusing. Kind of adds to the humanity of it all. It's very possible that Maria loses it, hence the dialogue in the labyrinth, thanks to the towns influence (Remember, there too, you don't witness her die. You only find the body later). If anything, one thing that has to be known due to the way how monsters are perceived differently from person to person is that nothing should be taken at face value.

Just so you know, Lisa was also a monster. It didn't really make her any less human. ("I'm not the only one who's still walking around. I'm the same as them. I just hadn't noticed it before.") Maria was just a copy of Mary. I believe both flesh and soul, but she isn't Mary. ("The you that isn't you.") Though, her flesh happens to be made of monster parts, her soul is still genuinely human. Doesn't take any of the fun out of figuring her out, it just means that there is more to consider.

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Holy crap. Silent Hill had more treasures than I ever imagined... People will exceed our bandwidth in a few minutes, just to see all the wonderful things we've found. Right, Eccles?

heehee...yep.

Like I told you, pretty much everything in Silent Hill 1 is a vague reference to something else (Triforce anyone?)

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I was just saying that the stripper Maria was a model/ vessel for the town's will. Since she's been overwritten by the town's will, it's pretty safe to assume that she's no longer alive but rather a meat puppet for the forces that be in the town, like the zombie nurses or pyramid head. It can be confusing at times but I only pieced it together from observations made from the SH2 2nd scenario and the poster seen in SH3. If there was no link with the poster to SH2, then why would the programmers have placed it there ? All we got to work with is the clues the guys at Konami left and like dectectives working on a case, our assumptions fill in the holes. As a more cynical person, my bias has coloured the situation differently than how you would of, in instances like the origins of the monsters and how Laura's reaction to them suggests how their act. The poin is that I'm not shooting you down here but rather telling you to keep all options open, since new evidence can appear and throw things into disarray. In this case, no single representation is 100% right for the game since none is given, so try to take everything you see on a forum like this with a grain of salt.

Developers do lots of things. It can be difficult to differentiate between hidden truths and playful devs. I mean, the UFO or dog endings are ignored, when it comes to canonical SH2, because they're obviously just silly. A poster in SH3 with the name of a char in SH2, while cute, has a similar lack of significance, in my opinion. And remember, these games are developed by relatively large groups of people, so a little joke by an environmental texture artist doesn't necessarily mean that the game's director had deep implications in mind.

If the poster had shown up in SH2, then I'd agree fully. But in the same way Harry in the UFO doesn't change SH1, the poster doesn't really change SH2, in my opinion. But there is obviously no right answer here, and I respect the Maria/stripper theory as a possible explanation.

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Again, this is the major split in theories. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is just a matter of personal philosophy. There are those who think everything is just a projection of James' mind and those who believe that everything is real, but influenced by the town. I tend to believe the projection theory, but I also wanted to explore the other in order to gain a better perspective.

Well, I personally think that there's no reason to take a black and white view of things. James projects most of the stuff, but I think it is reasonable to say that Eddie, Angela, and (likely) Laura aren't projections. Maria is a projection, but one with a nasty streak when James decides he doesn't need her anymore.

Silly rabbit, you should realize that you fight Maria in every ending (excluding the Dog and UFO endings). Maria just pretends to be Mary. That is because James chooses Maria over Mary. Whomever James chooses by the end, Maria will act like the other. (It only happens that in only one ending James chooses Maria.) Maria is just playing the role of "Final Temptation."
MARY: James. Ive been waiting.

JAMES: Mary. Im sorry I took so long

MARY: Didnt you want to see me?

JAMES: Yes I wanted to see you, even an illusion of you...thats

why I came here.

MARY: Its not true...is it? You killed me.

JAMES: I couldnt watch you suffer.

MARY: Dont make excuses James (cough)I know I was a burden on you.

You must have hated me. Thats why you got rid of me.

JAMES: Its true. I may have had some of those feelings. (pause)

It was a long three years. I was...tired...

MARY: Thats why you needed this Maria person? James...do

you really think I could ever FORGIVE YOU FOR WHAT

YOU DID?!?

(Mary transforms into a demon and James fights and kills her)

I don't know where you get "Maria pretending to be Mary" from all of that. In that ending, James has accepted Maria, and so she has no reason to have a fake-Mary attack him.

Just so you know, Lisa was also a monster. It didn't really make her any less human. ("I'm not the only one who's still walking around. I'm the same as them. I just hadn't noticed it before.") Maria was just a copy of Mary. I believe both flesh and soul, but she isn't Mary. ("The you that isn't you.") Though, her flesh happens to be made of monster parts, her soul is still genuinely human. Doesn't take any of the fun out of figuring her out, it just means that there is more to consider.

Fair enough. The only trick with Maria is that she isn't formed from another person as Lisa was, but instead by James's memories/desires/guilt. While Mary and Maria are "similar", they always regard each other as an entirely different person, actually as adversaries in most endings. That wouldn't make sense, if Maria had Mary's soul or somesuch.

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Silent Hill = great at the time

Silent Hill 2 = one of the best horror games ever! awesome story, awesome atmosphere, and while its a pain to actually get the dog ending, go get it its hilarious!

Silent Hill 3 = kind of cool that it continued the plot of SH1, but overall nothing new or that exciting

Silent Hill 4 = looks like its gonna be really cool, go check out the trailer NOW!

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Well, I personally think that there's no reason to take a black and white view of things. James projects most of the stuff, but I think it is reasonable to say that Eddie, Angela, and (likely) Laura aren't projections. Maria is a projection, but one with a nasty streak when James decides he doesn't need her anymore.

Though you may see no reason to consider that things are real. The developers have introduced it into the series. It remains a likely possibility. SH1 teeterred on the edge of whether it was real or not. Likely, that theory might have been kept in mind while creating this game. Besides, with the release of SH3, we have to keep it open since is seems very unlikely that Silent Hill (the one from the games) is an illusion, at least not entirely.

Also, because of certain inconsistencies in adhering to only one of the two theories, it's best to keep the opposite in consideration.

Silent Hill 2 Spoilers

I don't know where you get "Maria pretending to be Mary" from all of that. In that ending, James has accepted Maria, and so she has no reason to have a fake-Mary attack him.

This is one of the most subtle aspects of the game. You have to assume that this is the first ending most people will view, but it should also be held in context with the other endings. Besides, you should also take in what James says afterwards:

Maria: "You killed Mary again?"

James: "That wasn't Mary. Mary's gone. That was just something I... Maria?!"

Also, think about every ending in context. What does Maria wants James to do? Maria wants James to choose her. Maria wants James to accept her completely. How do you suppose James prove this to Maria? Could he, oh say, kill Mary again? That might show that he doesn't want Mary. (A little greek tragedy for you.) However, Mary's gone. How can James kill Mary if she isn't here? Who, oh who, will ever play the part of Mary? If only there was someone around who looked exactly like Mary.

Anyway, think about what he also says in the Maria ending.

Maria: "What about Mary?"

James: "It's okay. I have you."

Fair enough. The only trick with Maria is that she isn't formed from another person as Lisa was, but instead by James's memories/desires/guilt. While Mary and Maria are "similar", they always regard each other as an entirely different person, actually as adversaries in most endings. That wouldn't make sense, if Maria had Mary's soul or somesuch.

Mary and Maria are two different people. Like I said, Maria is a copy. Think of it as astral cloning. In cloning, you used a single source (the nucleus) and implant it into another form (a blank egg). The original person stays intact and you create the copy using completely different materials, i.e. "monster parts."

In James' case, the nucleus was his wish. His wish to be with Mary again. However, this again is still playing into the "it might be real" theory. In respect to the "it might be a projection" theory, Maria's core is most likely made up of James' memories/desires/guilt. Her physical is not real, but due to the strong effects of his psyche, James believes what he feels is real.

However, again, this can also be applied to every aspect of the game, if you choose to believe this aspect. Everything James sees, hears, feels could be an illusion created by his mind. This is a consequence of choosing this theory. This also means that the endings are all illusions too. So, be careful to which theory you adhere, because you may not be happy in the end.

Anyway, back to what you were saying about Maria and Mary beings "adversaries." Actually, this isn't entirely accurate. A better way to say it might be that Maria was competing for James' attention. (Mary really isn't putting any effort into competing with Maria.) To say this implies that the two are in a struggle over James.

Maria is a person all her own (to an extent). She is fighting James' memory of Mary, so she is trying to exploit the bad memories that James has of Mary. She wants to say she is better than Mary so James will choose her. However, she still isn't perfect. She does yell at James; she does make him feel bad, though maybe not all because she wants to. And in a way, she is deluting herself. (Funny, huh? A delusion deluting itself.)

Still, I could be biased. There are so many interpretations of this love-triangle possible. I really haven't taken in all the information from the game yet and I really hate to get into Maria/Mary discussions at this point, because I haven't considered every angle. However, it is at the heart of the game, which makes it unavoidable.

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Silent Hill 3 Spoilers

I was revisiting SH3 yesterday and I was trying to figure out exactly how Harry (the man who defeated "god") could have been killed so easily. I don't exactly know, but from the scene, it didn't look like Harry put up a struggle.

First, let's consider how he was killed. From the blood splatter, it looks like he was stabbed through the chest, either in the heart or lung. The blood stains on the back of the chair show that the bleeding came from the upper torso. Also, because the stains are on the back of the chair, it looks like the wound went all the way through Harry's chest. Had it not, the stains would not have appeared on the back since he was facing forward.

In addition to this, from the large amount to blood directly in front of the chair, it seems that Harry was not sitting down when he was killed. It appears that Harry was standing up when the monster killed him. It also appears that he was attacked from the front, and not the back, because if he had been attacked from behind, the blood trail would have lead from the back of the chair to the patio, rather than from the front of the chair to the patio. (I also believe that he was not killed while sitting down, because there is no damage to the chair.)

After he was attacked, Harry probably then sank into his chair which is probably why he looks like he had just sat down when Heather finds him. Due to the small amount of space in the living room, at least where Harry was killed, the monster might have come out of Heather's room. Had Harry been sitting down, he would have most likely stood up at seeing the monster.

Likely, this was a quick death for Harry. However, nothing is certain, since we don't know the events that occured before Harry's death. But if Harry did have a chance to react, why isn't there more signs of struggle? How did a monster get inside Heather's room? Was Claudia present at the murder scene? Would she have wanted to?

[/spoilers]

Strange, but it seems like there is an evolution in the subjects of the games. SH1 felt like an interpretation of philosophy/existance; SH2 felt like an interpretation of psychology/the psyche; while SH3 felt like an interpretation of poetry (not just because of the puzzles either). The main subject seemed to be the effects of love & hate, how easily we can betray each other in search of love. Very poetic.

It seems like the progression is to go from very broad, abstract concepts to more finite, definative ones. I wonder if SH4 will follow this tend. Only time will tell.

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Just maybe ifirit...Heather was the killer. :twisted:

This is just a little randomness after reading your post, I'll do a better explanation later but it's possible that, just like at the mall, heather's little passenger started turning the apartment all ASH and Harry, caught by surprise, got wacked before he could react in time...or simple could not kill his daughter....

Just a thought. :twisted:

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I would just like to say that I just watched a documentary of sort about Silent Hill 3, that I have on dvd. Maybe several of you have it also, but they include alot of inside information on the monsters, and scenes and certain elements of the game. Very interesting to fans of the series. I will be taking screenshots from the dvd, and type up a complete script of the interviews and such, so that even those without the dvd, can enjoy the freebies.

All this, and much much more, will be available on the upcoming site Brookhaven, made by myself, Eccles and ifirit.

[/Commercial]

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Silent Hill = great at the time

Silent Hill 2 = one of the best horror games ever! awesome story, awesome atmosphere, and while its a pain to actually get the dog ending, go get it its hilarious!

Silent Hill 3 = kind of cool that it continued the plot of SH1, but overall nothing new or that exciting

Silent Hill 4 = looks like its gonna be really cool, go check out the trailer NOW!

True... But the katana available as normalweapon in SH3 kinda excited me **blush**

As for SH4, I still can't understand what the main idea is with the "room" concept.... :?

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As I understood from the trailers, it's about a guy going mad in his apartment block.

To be honest, it looks like Silent Hill is turning into resident evil...only with a good reputation...

Anyways, I sent 13 pages of material to Starzander and Ifrit to use in the construction of the site.

I have also been drafted to do the sections on monsters, characters and storyline (possibly the walkthrough also, if I can find time)

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As I understood from the trailers, it's about a guy going mad in his apartment block.

To be honest, it looks like Silent Hill is turning into resident evil...only with a good reputation...

Yeah... considering the fact that Silent Hill 3 didn't take place in Silent Hill (except for the last 1/4 of the game) and this "room" story, we definitely can wonder why it's still named Silent Hill...

btw, I'll have to give Forbidden Siren a try....

NOTA : For SH3, it's obviously just called so because it follows the lines of SH1..

NOTA 2 : I'm really looking forward to seeing your site, guys ^^

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Yes, it is true, I have nothing to add to the conversation at hand. However, I saw the discussion title, and had two put in my two cents:

I recently beat the first Silent Hill game for the first time, without any walkthroughs or anything, and was amazed when I went to gamefaqs and found out how much more I can do with the game. I mean, I really love that I'm going to have a lot more fun with this game while I'm playing through Silent Hill 2. Endings and weapons to unlock.... I love that.

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I always had the strangest of theories about Maria. When I came up with mine, it made me so sad I cried a bit, even.

I always had a theory that Maria is entirely a creation of the town, but that she is, indeed, a free-willed human. Certainly, the town revives her when she dies at the hands of the Pyramid Heads, but even then she is still human. She seems actually confused that she has some of Mary's memories, even. She's a human who was called into existance in a place full of nightmarish monsters and hellish pain, constantly being killed again and again to punish James. Now, the force that created her keeps telling her that she'll eventually leave this hell with him, have someone who will love her and protect her (Remember what she tells him in the hospital? "You were supposed to take care of me...!"), and who will take her away from all this. In return, she'll make him happy again, help heal him...but then, when it comes to that, he doesn't do what he's supposed to. He realizes what has happened, and realizes he can't accept her and still atone for his crime. This is why she attacks him, in grief and desperation, but not why she becomes a monster. It's James's altered perception of her, his knowledge that the town did, indeed, create her, and his knowledge of what the creations of the town ARE (demons and horrors) that transform her into a monster. Certainly, he HAS to see her like this in order to ever be able to sever his connection to this evil town and to atone for his sin. But it remains that Maria was human, and that her one hope of escape and happiness not only was forced to cast her aside, but also came to see her as a demon, and even something he needed to kill violently.

Sad, huh?

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*Site info* All I need now is a decent webhotel, with alot of bandwidth... There were alot more pictures than I expected, because of the DVD's that we have. Preferably it should be free... for now. Depending on how popular it will be, we might expand to a better one.

Does anyone know any good webhotels?

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In conjunction with the SayMail thread, I've been making little animations using Silent Hill characters. They're okay, not really impressive, but still fun to check out. I'm thinking about learning to use flash, so that I can do full body animations. Anyway, here they are:

Cheryl

Mary

Douglas

Henry

Have fun.

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roight!

I got me a copy of silent hill 3.

And I've been playing it a lot...and it kicks ass.

PS: Bump

Good travel throught silent hill Eccles....

Map,radio, lamp, red pen, steel pipe.. Ok let's go :wink:

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