Meteo Xavier Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Because I'm a DIY-er, and because I have only gotten this far on little else than moxie, I don't have a lot of realistic professional knowledge when it comes to composing and being a composer. This is potentially hazardous because I create primarily on how my music comes off to the listener. Studying all kinds of different artists and how people approach and enjoy them is no help. I hear mixes that are great, but redundant, or creative but muddy or redundant and muddy and people seem to eat it all up. The only thing I can come up with that works as a general indicator for me is "If it sounds good to me, it sounds good to them." Problem now is, what if I can't tell? I'm working on a serious-intentioned New Age/Ambient album (ambient song structures with new age instrumentation and such) and I'm really shooting for the moon here and trying to create a sound that is familiar but unique at the same time. I'm WAY behind on this project and its because the tracks I'm completing just don't move me in any way. I have two tracks (which I'll present in a minute) that I've put like 60 hours on combined in the last 2 weeks. And I'm fucking exhausted. I can't stop and do something else because I want to get this thing fucking done already and I have other projects down the road that need my attention, but at the same time, to me they only might be working. I feel this detachment in a lot of my tracks that aren't in E Major. Is this sort of detachment normal for all composers? Does it just come with the package, or is it bullshit that means I'm not ready to make some money off this trade? Here are the tracks I'm working on, which are largely done but still incomplete jengas. I'm getting each track professionally mastered and I'm hoping it makes the songs brighter and the transitions fit better, but right now, I don't know. I hear songs with worse quality that work somehow, I don't see why mine can't. http://www.savefile.com/files/2125054 http://www.savefile.com/files/2125052 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nubioso Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I think detachment comes from having to work on an 8 minute song in the genre of "Ambient" which means just overly spacey and hardly any real movement to me. While the song "perchance to dream" sounds good for it's genre, I could totally understand why you'd get detached from that. Unless you're just really into ambient and ambient only, most people go for that "THUMP THUMP THUMP" in a beat that keeps you hooked.....without that, who wouldn't get detached. Also, you're probably just fatigued. I did this 40 something track project for this folk band that I spent god knows how many hours on, and listening to it now (almost 2 years later), it sounds really good, but at the time it got to a point where I couldnt even tell if it sounded good anymore....happens to everyone. just gotta step back from it for a little...."sometimes those in the crowd can see the game better than the players" or something like that =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmony Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 While the songs are downloading, I'll say that regardless of what I think of the songs, I think it's a dangerous slippery slope to go around comparing your art work to others' in terms of "quality". You can't define that, and if you think in terms of your tracks having better "quality" than someone else's, that is an excellent way to drive yourself up the wall. All that should matter when making music for fun is whether it moves you. All that should matter if you're just trying to make money is whether it moves a lot of the people that listen to it. The best case scenario of course is to balance these two (not necessarily mutually exclusive) desires. "Quality" doesn't have anything to do with it, imo. I won't go into any deep critiques of the songs, but I did like them both, especially Perchance. Great mix of synthetic and organic textures, especially for the latter half. Didn't like the super plain lead that comes in at 4:10 though. It is blown out of the water by every other lead (like the violin that comes in right after it, or the flute, or whatever reed that is that comes in at 5:21), making it feel like the unwanted child. Espers is, for the most part, very rich. The hand percussion pattern that starts out the track goes essentially unchanged for the first 5 mins, which I understand serves as an element to ground the track, but its so strong that it stands out and starts to get slightly repetitive around the 4 min mark. I LOVE that the percussion pattern is swapped out for a chromatic percussion version of basically the same thing at 5:08. Very cool transition to the chilled extended outro. Hope you don't go insane before you finish the album. My tracks usually move me more in retrospect, so hopefully you get a little of that hindsight love for your music once this is all done. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannthr Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 re: Making Money One of the distinctions between an amateur and a professional is the ability to really 'hunker down' and pull through a gig with almost no inspiration. To get the job done and hopefully get the job done well despite personal problems, hold-backs/delays, or creative block. The problem here might be that this project of yours might not be reflective of the goals and deadlines associated with an actual professional gig. However, at the same time, 30 hours a week is commendable for a project that doesn't have a deadline, and yes it can be very exhausting. As a professional, there will be expectations from the client concerning your speed, but as a personal project, there are none, so take your time, make it perfect. But most importantly, when it comes to personal projects, your goal should be to learn and grow as an artist. Of course, that definitely means spending the time, the effort, the work, and the sweat to put in the detail and really make something quality, but it also means realizing that each work is a stepping stone from which we launch ourselves into a new work and hopefully a better work. If your goal is not to make money or reach a deadline on this project, then I suggest spending as much time as is necessary before you reach a state of diminishing returns and move on. Put a stamp on it and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 While the songs are downloading, I'll say that regardless of what I think of the songs, I think it's a dangerous slippery slope to go around comparing your art work to others' in terms of "quality". You can't define that, and if you think in terms of your tracks having better "quality" than someone else's, that is an excellent way to drive yourself up the wall. All that should matter when making music for fun is whether it moves you. All that should matter if you're just trying to make money is whether it moves a lot of the people that listen to it. The best case scenario of course is to balance these two (not necessarily mutually exclusive) desires. "Quality" doesn't have anything to do with it, imo. I won't go into any deep critiques of the songs, but I did like them both, especially Perchance. Great mix of synthetic and organic textures, especially for the latter half. Didn't like the super plain lead that comes in at 4:10 though. It is blown out of the water by every other lead (like the violin that comes in right after it, or the flute, or whatever reed that is that comes in at 5:21), making it feel like the unwanted child. Espers is, for the most part, very rich. The hand percussion pattern that starts out the track goes essentially unchanged for the first 5 mins, which I understand serves as an element to ground the track, but its so strong that it stands out and starts to get slightly repetitive around the 4 min mark. I LOVE that the percussion pattern is swapped out for a chromatic percussion version of basically the same thing at 5:08. Very cool transition to the chilled extended outro. Hope you don't go insane before you finish the album. My tracks usually move me more in retrospect, so hopefully you get a little of that hindsight love for your music once this is all done. Good luck. Its not for vain artistic merit that I'm comparing "quality" between what I'm shooting for and what others are doing, its what a new age/ambient record label looks for and produces for their label and distribution. I look at last.fm and see plenty of artists on there with 5-6 minute tracks that are just drone, piano, occasional sitar gliss and a bodhran. 4-5 instruments at most in some cases. And they're not even real pianos or bodhrans. I'd bet its someone like me doing it on FL and getting professional mastering. And they have like 9,000 listens on last.fm and 3-4 albums out. But I'm not stupid enough to know its just that easy, thats why I compare quality to see what the markers are. If I'm to compete, I have to show up with better quality songs, and its a quality thats being hampered by that detachment and malaise and that weird, unqualifiable quality that goes with not being crazy about the songs yourselves while others probably eat them up. I'm glad you enjoyed them, thats some genuine relief right there. The hand drums not changing throughout Espers in the first 5 is not really accurate, but it just means my goal of changing up the rhythms without break the flow seems to have worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj Mokram Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 My best advice would be: don't do it for the sake of doing it. There's no time-limit, no need to rush, no specific audience to please with 5 minutes of drone & sitar. It's just you and your project. And in between, the feelings and emotions you want to give to your creation. Basically, what you can and/or want to allow yourself to transmit to others. I've done albums in the past, with various musical inspirations, but all had a common point: they were all the by-product of something I felt I had to share by infusing it into my music. And this feeling became my drive, litteraly the lifeline of the project. I firmly believe that if you're not driven by some kind of emotion during the creative process of a personal project, you won't be able to end it. And by ending it, I mean being simultaneously entirely satisfied by the result, and totally sucked dry by the amount of creative effort you put in it. Sure, sometime it can drive you crazy, and make you pool all your mental ressources. It may even become an obsession to pursue the non-existant perfection. But when you start feeling detached, thinking about the money involvment, then maybe you've lost your purpose and passion somewhere along the road... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Oh, its definitely NOT about money. I'd sure like to make off of this project, but its only 10% of why I want to do it. The other 90% is me wanting to actually make good on this aspect of why I get up in the morning. I mean to actually accomplish something and accomplish it well. And from there go on to accomplish more things. I've been trying for 7 years to just get something DONE and should've been able to, yet I have nothing to show for it except a couple game tracks I did for Phijayy and Yggdrasil Speaks To Me. And with it comes a remarkable weight that comes with plodding along on a project and shooting for a perfection that doesn't exist. I have a lot of projects that are on "hold", that I don't want to throw away because then it serves as a permanent reminder of the time I wasted on them. JUST GET IT DONE, MAN! I'm obsessive and impatient and spending more than a few months to do 8 tracks just seems ridiculous, especially when I'm not as young as I used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmony Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I look at last.fm and see plenty of artists on there with 5-6 minute tracks that are just drone, piano, occasional sitar gliss and a bodhran. 4-5 instruments at most in some cases.And they're not even real pianos or bodhrans. I'd bet its someone like me doing it on FL and getting professional mastering. And they have like 9,000 listens on last.fm and 3-4 albums out. I hear you, and it sounds like you've got your head in the right place, but this is exactly my point about this terrible idea of quality. Brittney Spears has sold millions of records, not because of the quality of her production techniques or the instruments(or rather, of those of the people that produce for her). She creates music that lots of people enjoy, and to me that's all you can really measure if you're going to try to compare your tracks to other people's tracks. I'm not sure if it's relevant for you or not, but I just wouldn't want anyone at your level of musical proficiency approaching music making thinking that the best way to improve their sound would be to improve the "quality" of their samples or their production. To me, those are secondary to the core or the issue...making music that has some sort of indescribable instinctive connection to listeners and yourself. The hand drums not changing throughout Espers in the first 5 is not really accurate, but it just means my goal of changing up the rhythms without break the flow seems to have worked.Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that they actually don't change; they do, and I did notice that. But as you said, I don't think it was enough to keep them from sounding overly repetitive after minute 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hy Bound Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Detachment and malaise happens to me with almost every single song i write. However, the songs that I don't have much of that with i know are good to someone else as well. I am incredibly anal about the sounds, melodies, structure and every other piece of the music i write. So if after all is said and done and I've heard the same song over and over again and i don't feel much of that, then I feel i have created something that someone else can enjoy as well. If i DO feel detachment/malaise about a song i either start all over with what i like about that song or i just leave it be. ...That also explains why i have about 500 unfinished songs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abg Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Just wanted to say I listened to Perchance to Dream when you posted it in an earlier thread and really enjoyed it. Espers sounds really nice too, I like this style you're developing. I'm really into ambient music and these feel very natural which is probably the most important thing. The new age touch adds a nice flavour to the textures, I think you're really on to something here! I'm sure everyone can relate to the feeling of detachment you get after working on the same project for too long. Personally I find that after I've been working on something more than two weeks it starts to get hard to tell if I'm still on the right track. Usually best to just take a couple days and not even listen to it, then when you come back to it try to imagine you're someone listening for the first time and really get a feel for what your listeners are going to be thinking. Also, and I'm personally bad for this too, but forcing yourself to work on a track when you aren't inspired isn't necessarily a good idea. Sometimes starting something new will cause you to come around to different ideas for the track you were working on in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Also, and I'm personally bad for this too, but forcing yourself to work on a track when you aren't inspired isn't necessarily a good idea. Sometimes starting something new will cause you to come around to different ideas for the track you were working on in the first place. Its never about not being inspired, I'm always inspired, its whether or not it will work in the sequencer, and for these two songs its been unusually difficult. I think its also my FL 8. These new features are weird to me and it keeps circle jerking itself all over me and hindering my process. If I use the scroll thing on my mouse, it could do anything from change volume or master tone to delete an entire instrument. That is exactly what happened here. Having worked on Perchance to Dream, I think I got it so its pretty much finished. It sounds much more balanced and "magical" but still fairly boring. I'm just hoping someone who hasn't been listening to it 20 times a day for 2-3 weeks will enjoy the mastered version more than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abg Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Ah more along the line of technical frustrations? Yeah, FL Studio isn't really ideal for making anything along the lines of... "experimental" music, shall we say? It's really a loops program for making dance-oriented music but if you're flexible enough you can get whatever you want out of it. FL 9 looks to be implementing a new playlist more along the lines of what we've seen in traditional DAWs so it might become a bit easier to work with when 9 is released. Anyways I wouldn't call Perchance to Dream boring, its really atmospheric and hypnotic! Besides, it's not like ambient music is supposed to be exciting, its just supposed to set a mood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambinate Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I've only been writing music seriously for a little while now, and I haven't taken on any big projects yet, so I can't really offer much in the same context as what you're talking about. But I will say that I definitely feel some of the same frustrations when it comes to writing and comparing my work to others' work. More importantly, though, I gotta say I've been keeping up with "Perchance to Dream" since you first posted it here a few weeks ago and I've always really liked it. I'm really impressed by the writing and I don't think you need to worry so much about the transitions, because to my ears it has a very natural flow. I think it's a great ambient track and I actually listen to it pretty regularly. My one issue with the newest version you posted in this thread is with the new percussion that shows up around 2:10 - I find it a bit too distracting in comparison to what you had in version 3 (I think? The file I have from the first time you posted it has 3 at the end of the title). There's one drum hit in particular that's repeated often that sounds off to me - I don't know what the actual instrument is, but the closest comparison I could make is a snare drum with the snare off, and it's panned left. But maybe that's just me; it's your call. "Espers" sounds great, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palpable Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Meteo, did you start with this feeling of malaise, or did it happen after working on the songs for too long? If it's the former, I'm surprised you actually managed to spend so much time on these songs at all. Sometimes I will start a song and very quickly not feel like it's working, and usually I just trash it. Without an initial feeling of excitement, I really can't work on a song. It'a a matter of internal quality control and I think you have it on some level given that you have a posted ReMix. If it's the latter, I think it probably happens to all of us. Hell, it's happening to me right now, as I finish up the first Flickerfall EP. dannthr's advice seems sound - keep working until you think you're getting diminishing returns. Since you're doing an album, maybe it would be helpful to work on some other songs when you reach that point and come back later. With some time, it might restore some of the excitement you started with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Meteo, did you start with this feeling of malaise, or did it happen after working on the songs for too long? Kinda both actually. I don't even think I remember starting Perchance to Dream, I only remember working on it FOREVER. But having finished it, I can say without hyperbole that I no longer wake up in the middle of the night absolutely convinced the posters on my walls are changing while I sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palpable Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 But having finished it, I can say without hyperbole that I no longer wake up in the middle of the night absolutely convinced the posters on my walls are changing while I sleep. Small steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well I'm not really sure what to best tell you, but some thoughts did come to mind: - Ear fatigue is a real thing. You'll definitely hear a song differently overlistening to it than say forgetting about it and listening to it again later. - Keep in mind the listener doesn't always know what they want. I think the most average music is about what the listener wants, and the greatest/worst music is about what the composer wants. - Every professional will tell you: it's not what you can do, it's what you can do on time. If you aren't satisfied with this until it sounds just "perfect", you aren't thinking professionally, just artistically. Keep the scope of your music in check with your available time. Not meeting quality standards in your time frame? Lower your scope. You're gonna win and lose no matter what you choose. I think it just depends on where your priorities are here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 - Ear fatigue is a real thing. You'll definitely hear a song differently overlistening to it than say forgetting about it and listening to it again later. Yeah, I learned this back in the fall semester when I took a recording class. Its just hard to tell when its actually mutating and ruining the song. - Keep in mind the listener doesn't always know what they want. I think the most average music is about what the listener wants, and the greatest/worst music is about what the composer wants. Well, to me, this is compounded by the fact that I'm not trained conventionally and the music I choose to do is often experimental in structure so as to stand out and be creative. I always just get this feeling in many of my tracks like it sounds right to me but it might be missing some huge fundemental element that makes it sound like a real song. I can't tell where I stand and what I need to improve and work on so I can be taken seriously. - Every professional will tell you: it's not what you can do, it's what you can do on time. If you aren't satisfied with this until it sounds just "perfect", you aren't thinking professionally, just artistically. Keep the scope of your music in check with your available time. Not meeting quality standards in your time frame? Lower your scope. Well, in this case, this is an artistic project than a professional one, but I'm glad to hear anyway. I'm just trying to figure out how the big boys, Uematsu, Sakuraba, Soule, Mitsuda, Mitsuda and Shimomura are able to accomplish both. I know they have better equipment and things I don't, but they have the same obstacles I run into too, so how do they get around them much quicker? Thats what I'm trying to explore. You're gonna win and lose no matter what you choose. I think it just depends on where your priorities are here. What kind of priorities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Well, in this case, this is an artistic project than a professional one, but I'm glad to hear anyway. I'm just trying to figure out how the big boys, Uematsu, Sakuraba, Soule, Mitsuda, Mitsuda and Shimomura are able to accomplish both. I know they have better equipment and things I don't, but they have the same obstacles I run into too, so how do they get around them much quicker? Thats what I'm trying to explore. Well I'm no pro yet so if you ever find out, I'd love to know too I have heard that people like John Williams, and I'm sure this carries over to game composers and other music artists to some extent, recommend practicing your craft every single day. That way composing what you want isn't an act of time consuming exploration, but efficient routine, which sounds kinda...not creative I know, but then again they are film composers not new age. What kind of priorities? Time, budget, sanity, sleep, family, quality, audience, scope, etc. From a project management perspective the triangle is always time vs. scope vs. budget. You can't improve one factor without making concessions/adjustments on the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peet Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 re: Making MoneyOne of the distinctions between an amateur and a professional is the ability to really 'hunker down' and pull through a gig with almost no inspiration. To get the job done and hopefully get the job done well despite personal problems, hold-backs/delays, or creative block. Exactly! I find myself from time to time getting hung up on some little perfectionist quirk, generally having to do with synth timbre, and wasting a disproportionately high amount of time when I could've been pushing ahead composition-wise. After the main song structure is complete, the rest is cake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rig1015 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Meteo X... I feel you man, you sound so jaded, . I'm just trying to figure out how the big boys, Uematsu, Sakuraba, Soule, Mitsuda, Mitsuda and Shimomura are able to accomplish both. I know they have better equipment and things I don't, but they have the same obstacles I run into too, so how do they get around them much quicker? Thats what I'm trying to explore. Consider maybe that they never got around/over their obsticles all the time. I'm sure they had their problems that they just had to deal with. I'm sure if you gave Y. Mitsuda more time on CC we would have a completely different sounding game. Million dollar question is; Would we love it the same? I'm sure he didn't like the way 'this part sounded here' or the way 'that part sounded there' but he probably had to submit walk away and hope for the best. We as creative entities should know when to stop developing our creations and just let our creations be or else we hurt the creativity. In pro they are told "You are done. Hand it over 'as-is'." So another thing to consider is that in the pro world money is changing hands, that means there is going to be a shit filter somewhere down the line. You scofe at the "crap" you see get published under labels but someone paid money and thought that that sound was good enough to make their money back, so it passed their shit filter. If you find it (the "crap" published) low grade but still selling then that should show you that the market doesn't care about quality the way you do. If it doesn't sell... well you know. "IF IT SOUNDS RIGHT IT IS RIGHT" - Joe Meek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Man, I forgot all about this topic. What does jaded mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rig1015 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 The way I'm using it: unable to see clearly anymore; lost; confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meteo Xavier Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Yeah, that sounds about right. I just wish I could get some real and real good instruction without all the technobabble bullshit and learn the markers that make a good song and mix. There's gotta be something like that that produces even the shittiest song to sound professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dj Mokram Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 There's gotta be something like that that produces even the shittiest song to sound professional. Yep, it's called money. ...just kidding. Practice makes perfect Meteo. I know you're keen on finishing stuff you've started. But in the end, having 10 unfinshed pieces you spent years on to polish won't help you in the long term. As musician, or more specifically as artist, we have to always evolve to adapt. We can't stay static. The more you create and experiment, the more you'll learn, and the more you'll understand about yourself and your music-making process. The key is preparation. And to be prepared you have to make lots & lots of music. Simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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