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Capa Langley

By Capa Langley,
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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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The trick I used to last hit and deny like I do in DotA was to pick the hero with the least base damage and worst attack animation then practice killing waves and waves until you can last hit and deny every creep in every wave for ten minutes with nobody harassing you. If you can do that you can work with any hero. In DotA it was Techies. In HoN I'm not so sure.

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bladiator Newbie

bladiator

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The trick I used to last hit and deny like I do in DotA was to pick the hero with the least base damage and worst attack animation then practice killing waves and waves until you can last hit and deny every creep in every wave for ten minutes with nobody harassing you. If you can do that you can work with any hero. In DotA it was Techies. In HoN I'm not so sure.

That sounds brutal.

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BardicKnowledge Newbie

BardicKnowledge

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The trick I used to last hit and deny like I do in DotA was to pick the hero with the least base damage and worst attack animation then practice killing waves and waves until you can last hit and deny every creep in every wave for ten minutes with nobody harassing you. If you can do that you can work with any hero. In DotA it was Techies. In HoN I'm not so sure.

You'd have to do more than the last-hit (hard deny or hit enemy creeps way early) in order to get every creep on both sides -- otherwise you'll have to choose between EITHER a last-hit or a deny as the creeps kill each other simultaneously. Not saying it isn't possible, but it's a lot of work that isn't anywhere near realistic in actual play.

IMO better to work toward a goal of 5-6 total denies or lasthits a wave, which is likely by a skilled player ingame. Then you're getting a little over half of all creep kills -- not a bad position to be in.

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Vilecat Newbie

Vilecat

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Hehe, I was one of the first giving them away, I simply decided to uninstall and such since i couldn't get the hang of it. I'm willing to give it another shot now.

BTW: If anyone wants, I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 available keys to toss out. PM me for one.

Oh wow. Well I still got 2 beta invites too in the eventuality that you run out o_O

I haven't asked for the campus server tech to unblock HoN yet, but for this week it's more to keep me away from any distraction. I have 2 projects to hand in before the end of the week and 1 or 2 more next week.

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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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You'd have to do more than the last-hit (hard deny or hit enemy creeps way early) in order to get every creep on both sides -- otherwise you'll have to choose between EITHER a last-hit or a deny as the creeps kill each other simultaneously. Not saying it isn't possible, but it's a lot of work that isn't anywhere near realistic in actual play.

IMO better to work toward a goal of 5-6 total denies or lasthits a wave, which is likely by a skilled player ingame. Then you're getting a little over half of all creep kills -- not a bad position to be in.

Not quite. Point is, you're going to learn how much a single hit will change the timing between two kills. You'll learn how to set the timings apart so you can actually get everything. Also if you're aware of a hit or two changing how well or bad it can go for you then you are aware of what your enemy will be thinking. It's not about getting every creep in an actual game. It's about getting more and messing up your opponent. So make sure the creeps will be staggered and clear cut and see what your opponent does. Is he confident enough to fight you over them directly as they drop one by one? Or will he be doing similar things to counteract you and force you to make hard decisions? Depends on his style.

All I'm saying is that if you want to be able to do this with any hero then you're much better off as a player. I guarantee you I can do this. Also starting off with range is the easy mode of this training. Beast mode is doing this in an actual game with a melee character. Harassing isn't fun to deal with.

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BardicKnowledge Newbie

BardicKnowledge

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Zero, I never once said that you couldn't do it, even with a melee char. However, if you stand forward so often as to be capable of it in a real game, you'll be stunned and destroyed after they harass you down to 2/3 health.

A _big_ part of good laning is not dying, and encouraging people to try to get EVERY deny and lasthit doesn't breed cautiousness in new players.

That being said, if I'm up against someone better than me, I prefer to force my opponent to choose between a deny and a lasthit as often as possible, to guarantee myself one of the two. If I'm the better player, then I go for more stuff because I don't fear the harass/punishment as much.

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Battousai Newbie

Battousai

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Back in my dota days my friends and I would, while wondering what exactly to build on each individual hero, usually settle on things like perseverance (and then proceeding to battlefury for melee heroes) based on the fact that the itme gives regen and damage, while not boosting any particular stat. Of course the people on the forums are the same assholes who play the game and rage and afk/leave games and ruin the experience day in and day out, so they would obviously bash us for doing so. My question is though, if you're doing well farming early on what harm is it to get a void stone or ring of health? Early on the regen you get from them seems to be quite nice and especially as a melee hero solves either your mana problems or your ability to stay in lane and last-hit and deny vs ranged.

I mean, I'd rather have one of thoes things than a second or third bracer depending on the situtation.

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Tensei Newbie

Tensei

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http://heroesofnewerth.com/honscreens/WitchSlayerTeaser1InWater.jpg

Big picture is big. Witch Slayer looks like tons of fun, the main gripe I had with his DotA counterpart was that his skills seemed so bland, but I'm really digging the theme of this hero.

Also, thing is, if you're farming well early on in lane, you probably aren't getting harassed (or you wouldn't be farming well), so a life/manatube or even a scarab is a waste of money at that point imo. That's why runes and mana potions are more efficient early on, they cost a fraction of what a 'big' regen item would cost, and if you play your cards right you will run out of them exactly in time, freeing up space for the items you've farmed up inlane.

That said, there definitely are some heroes that I will rush a lifetube on, especially if I'm preparing to build a Runed Axe (Which I only do on about 2-3 heroes anyway).

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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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Usually as a carry you grab an iron buckler to ensure you don't get harassed out of lane or use up all of your healing items before laning phase ends.

As for Sustainer I used to get it on most every hero back in DotA when I was a beginner. It's a really great item but nowadays I only get it if I'm building a Refresher or a Battle Fury. I almost never get it as a standalone item except for a hero like Hag. Back in DotA the decision was either Bottle for the ganking burst style or Pers for the sustained farming and presence but your spells bursts were much more infrequent. Btw while I like the buff to Hag I really think they should just give her movespeed and attack range that QoP used to have and then she'll probably be a little OP but that's okay because I loved playing QoP in her glory days. She used to be able to win against triple lanes back when that was popular. (OMG we need to run a triple lane at some point. Triple stun?! Awwww yeah)

Edit: Nevermind I lied. I used to turn the Pers on QoP into a Linken's after building sheep stick. So no, I guess I never get it as a standalone item ever. Only to be built into something else.

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Tensei Newbie

Tensei

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My Hellbringer Build/Mini Guide

Skills

1. Blood Boil/Lifevoid

2. Lifevoid/Blood Boil

3. Blood Boil

4. Unholy Shackles

5. Blood Boil

6. Summon Malphas

7. Blood Boil

8. Unholy Shackles

9. Unholy Shackles

10. Unholy Shackles

11. Summon Malphas

12-14. Lifevoid

15. Stats

16. Summon Malphas

17-25. Stats

Justification/Explanation:

Take Blood Boil if you see an opportunity to get bloodlust at the rune, otherwise get Lifevoid right away. Only one level of Lifevoid is required early on because you only need it for the ridiculous healing potential at this point. Blood Boil is maxed asap because it's a powerful DoT early on but it will start becoming worse as the game progresses and health pools increase.

Shackles will make ganking easier.

Lanes/Roles

Hellbringer is a very flexible hero with a huge lane presence: Life Void allows you to be way more aggressive than many other heroes because you can actually afford to tank creep hits and enemy harassment; If both you and an enemy hero are brought down to 50% health, you have the advantage here, because casting life void on an enemy creep wave will heal you to full in a few seconds, while the enemy hero will have to waste precious regen items.

Due to the lane presence, powerful ganking potential, and dependence on mana, Hellbringer makes a very solid hero for soloing mid, with very few heroes that will shut him down.

On the other hand, he's also one of the few heroes that I feel comfortable playing 1v2 with, so he's a fine choice if you have a jungler on your team as well and you need someone to solo your short lane.

Finally, he's an alright baby sitter/support/ward whore. In this case his powerful lane presence should ensure that the carry can farm well. Hellbringer can dominate a lane without any items, so in higher level games he can afford to get both wards and a courier.

Items

Starts with: any combination of courier/wards/minor totems/mana potions.

- Bottle (if soloing mid)

- Power Supply (depending on enemy heroes in lane)

- Fortified Bracers/Talismans of Exile (depending on how you're farming/how much you're getting harassed)

- Bottle (if sidelane)

- Steamboots/Posthaste (depending on farm and how the game is developing, Posthaste if you can farm it quickly and need to push early, Steamboots if you're in for a longer game where you need survivability)

- Wards etc.

Luxury (competitive):

- Kuldra's Sheepstick or Stormspirit if you're not doing too well on farm.

Luxury (pub):

- Stormspirit (needed for bigger mana pool to support Resto)

- Restoration Stone (Double Malphas)

- Barbed Armor (hilarious synergy with Lifevoid)

Explanation/Justification:

As is obvious, Hellbringer shouldn't need a lot of farm or items to be effective, and should spend most of his time in the midgame either ganking or pushing towers rather than farming lanes.

Ganking/Malphas Micro

Open with Lifevoid and Blood Boil on your target, Ult in front of the direction he will run to to block his path with Malphas and get in some extra hits, immediately use firebreath with Malphas, and use Unholy Shackles with HB once they start running away. Remember to keep autoattacking them with both HB and Malphas. This should kill basically anyone when you're around level 7.

Don't be afraid of blowing Malphas on single targets, especially if you're solo ganking, because unlike Tempest's ult, Malphas will allow you to push the lane and possibly even destroy a tower, or at least force the enemy team to group up and defend.

Teambattles

Preferably counter-initiate with Malphas rather than initiating. Merely summoning (which can be done from a huge distance) gives a huge AoE stun that goes through magic immunity so it's a perfect counter to Tempest, Behemoth, Electrician and Legionnaire-type initiators. Remember to keep re-casting all of your spells (especially Lifevoid, as it will save your life) as soon as they're off CD. Especially in later teambattles your main purpose is to just get off a good initiation or counter-initiation with your ult, and keep the enemy teams magic armor low with Lifevoid.

Also:

2448l8k.png

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=40394

Time to step down from the meme throne, Blacksmith?

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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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Hey, my apologies to everyone in that game last night that I had to leave. I do IT work for a radiology company, and the doctor wasn't able to dictate the ER reads for some reason, and unfortunately when that kind of thing happens, I have to jump into action. Please don't hate me. :(

No worries. We still won. I have a strong carry Pyro.

@Tensei: No need for bottle on Hellbringer. No need for Runes of the Blight either. Life void is all the healing you need and it's cheap. If anything you start out with some clarities.

Also main build is to build refresher. Then you build any of the luxury items in order to put your base mana to a point where you can cast everything twice including refresher activation.

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