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Heroes of Newerth

Capa Langley

By Capa Langley,
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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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Rely I can't see you playing FA in a "real" game. You build lifesteal before a damage item and keep your steamboots on Agi instead of Str. You say you don't want to do what's proper all the time but if you don't have the ability to make it work otherwise then you shouldn't be playing a carry. She's a decent hero at best. Only one really useful ability. Level stats and stun first but it's not an initiating immobilize because it's easy enough to dodge. Ult is decent but only if you can fire it off safely. Damage is meh and split shot is split shot. Never anything special and doesn't really farm any better than regular last hitting until you are already super farmed. Those skeletons are so useless until level 20 so don't even bother.

Engi on the other hand is quite strong. Best build seems to be Thunderclaw to Nullfire to finishing your Charged hammer. Or instead of Nullfire you make a tornado stick for better turret/ult placement. He's a much better team hero and semicarry if you ask me.

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relyanCe Newbie

relyanCe

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Rely I can't see you playing FA in a "real" game. You build lifesteal before a damage item and keep your steamboots on Agi instead of Str. You say you don't want to do what's proper all the time but if you don't have the ability to make it work otherwise then you shouldn't be playing a carry. She's a decent hero at best. Only one really useful ability. Level stats and stun first but it's not an initiating immobilize because it's easy enough to dodge. Ult is decent but only if you can fire it off safely. Damage is meh and split shot is split shot. Never anything special and doesn't really farm any better than regular last hitting until you are already super farmed. Those skeletons are so useless until level 20 so don't even bother.

Engi on the other hand is quite strong. Best build seems to be Thunderclaw to Nullfire to finishing your Charged hammer. Or instead of Nullfire you make a tornado stick for better turret/ult placement. He's a much better team hero and semicarry if you ask me.

Why that game went wrong:

1. My plan was to get just mask and splitshot and neutral creep till i got full crit, but the other team kinda raped us before the laning phase even ended

2. Our team had no real initiation power, only pyro and he damn-sure wasn't gettin the job done.

3. I was under the impression that i wasn't going to be carrying. FA isn't a hard carry. If she can farm enough she can, but guess what I wasn't able to do? The other team was better. Are you really going to shelve that whole loss on just me? A Carry is carried by his team early game, which I wasn't.

4. With the way our team was made up, FA was a very very bad idea. I don't really see how this could be my fault since she was the first hero picked.

I also disagree with stat building over splitshot and skeletons. They make midgame pushes VERY easy. Maybe the glorify character guide takes issue with that, I don't care.

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BardicKnowledge Newbie

BardicKnowledge

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Damage is meh and split shot is split shot. Never anything special and doesn't really farm any better than regular last hitting until you are already super farmed.

Orbs stacking help split shot a TON. Whispering Helm + Shieldbreaker (or Frost if you're superfarmed) is huge on split shot / Moon Queen glaive. Not saying you shouldn't get stats early, but split shot is better in HoN than it was in DotA, period.

As an aside, this is also the reason that Hack&Slash isn't a _complete_ joke (though for cost-effectiveness it's still stupid as hell), though I have been told that they are getting reworked soon, which they need very badly.

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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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Yes you were supposed to carry that game. I do not feel a carry should be carried by his team at all. He's playing the strong focal hero for a reason. The player has to be good and on top of that the hero should be relevant throughout all but the first six levels of the game. Also I don't read Glorify's guides or any guides anymore for that matter at this point. That's an obvious skill build because it's what's good on the hero. Summons and split shots have been around before and it's always the same story.

And yes Tensei understands. You won't have anything relevant with splitshot until you are already well farmed. It's fine for team damage or stopping a push if you have something like Thunderclaw but it's nothing spectacular. It's a "win more" kind of skill. Get me?

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zircon Newbie

zircon

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Nah, not at all. First let's look at her stats.

1.7 Str - She's going to be extremely squishy. 15 base str? Even more so.

1.6 Agi - Carrying is out of the question and she will have poor ASPD/armor.

2.7 Int - Not bad, but not amazing for an Int hero.

2.08 Armor - Squishy.

295 Movement - Slow.

550 Attack Range - Not as good as other ranged heroes/babysitters.

Attack animation - Bad.

Damage range - Bad.

So statistically, she is inferior. How about abilities?

Healnuke - Long cooldown means it's gonna be used maybe once per teamfight or gank. Good otherwise, but it's non-scaling, so by mid to lategame it starts to lose utility, especially since as characters get faster it is much more easily dodged. Still, not terrible.

Grace of the Nymph - Good for earlygame, but by mid nobody is really going to be running out of mana. Leveling this takes points away from your other abilities. While it might make you a "portable fountain" your healnuke will be less effective as a result, your stun won't be as good, etc. Plus, it's situational. If your team is not mana reliant, this ability is mostly useless.

Stun - One of the slower and less reliable stuns in the game. It HAS to get higher leveled before it can really be effective, and even then, it is pretty easy to dodge compared to many other INT and STR stuns. The self-buff is just tacked on. Nymph's damage and ASPD are so poor that she won't really be able to do much with the buffs. Not practical for ganking.

Teleport - Before level 11 it's a glorified homecoming stone. Nymphora can't do much by herself so she won't really be teleporting alone that often. A solid ability otherwise, but by the time it starts to ramp up (TPing multiple people), what's the point? People won't be soloing much, and besides, they can hear you coming.

Compare this to Accursed. Accursed can take far more damage, and has arguably stronger lane presence (can towerdive/harass constantly, way more HP, better damage.) He also adds far more to teamfights overall than Nymphora and while he doesn't scale to lategame much either, is a more solid pick in any lineup than Nymphora. His Sear benefits the whole team, meaning he is doing up to three things in a teamfight (attacking, healing/nuking, shielding.) Definitely more presence.

As a babysitter, Demented Shaman is far superior. Better stats, better animation, way more utility, way more scaling. This is practically self-explanatory. Jeraziah is also better for obvious reasons. Even Voodoo Jester is more reliable. Voodoo can AOE heal or AOE nuke, stun more effectively, and do far more damage overall with Cursed Ground and his ult, not to mention his stats are better.

Even if you can't get any of these healers/babysitters, it's STILL better to have someone like Hellbringer or Glacius who are both more reliable and have more utility throughout the game.

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eternal Zero Newbie

eternal Zero

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I disagree. Nymphora is a much better hero than Glacius. She can't be used as a carry but she easily can be a support semi-carry DPSer with the zeal she gets from her stun. Also allowing a hero like Behemoth to cast his Fissure every CD for free is nothing to scoff at because that will rip any lane to shreds. Her multiple teleport isn't so great early as you've stated but with Staff of the Master it allows you to easily save teammates in trouble which I have done many times over. She's definitely underrated and is used more often than you'd think in high level play where people used to use Glacius for their mana support because she's superior in skilled hands.

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BardicKnowledge Newbie

BardicKnowledge

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Why is Void Talisman so underused? I played Glacius just now, and had a blast with it -- void + ult kept me alive and safe during the ult easy. As long as you don't rely on your auto-attack (90% of INT heroes), why aren't you getting this to counter carries lategame?

It works better than Barbed Armor against them (even after the recent buffs to Barbed) unless you're playing a high HP STR hero.

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Tensei Newbie

Tensei

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Why is Void Talisman so underused? I played Glacius just now, and had a blast with it -- void + ult kept me alive and safe during the ult easy. As long as you don't rely on your auto-attack (90% of INT heroes), why aren't you getting this to counter carries lategame?

It works better than Barbed Armor against them (even after the recent buffs to Barbed) unless you're playing a high HP STR hero.

Because Shrunken Head is generally a better item, especially on Glacius, since it will give you more HP due to the strength boost.

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Dhsu Newbie

Dhsu

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Well Void Talisman gives +7 to all attributes, so the extra 60 or so HP from Shrunken probably isn't going to make that much of a difference. From my experience though, stuns are more of a threat for channeling heroes than physical damage. If you're not getting stunned but just get carry-raped before you can finish your channel, then Void Talisman seems like a fine choice. Assuming they don't have any nukers of course, because they will make your head asplode the second you activate that thing.

Alternatively, Platemail costs 100 less gold for a 60% increase in EHP against physical attacks.

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Tensei Newbie

Tensei

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Ack, I'm always confusing nullstone and void talisman. -_-

Void Talisman is an item to counter specific heroes (most particularly Pandamonium). For the majority of the game, if you're dependent on properly channeling your ult, disables and burst magic damage will be a way bigger threat than autoattack damage from the enemy carry.

Also: Nymphora's ult isn't a glorified homecoming stone, more like a glorified Posthaste. You can use it together with actual homecoming stones to quickly punish your opponents for grouping up by teleporting to the opposite lane and fastpushing with the healnuke/stun. This allows you to farm way more than an average support hero would be able to since you can afford to farm lanes that are already extremely pushed and just get out at the first sight of danger. Being able to be all over the map as early as level 6 is huge.

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zircon Newbie

zircon

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Yet in every game I've played with Nymphora, including those where Antigrav played her, she always seems underleveled because she's so ridiculously easy to kill.

Well Void Talisman gives +7 to all attributes, so the extra 60 or so HP from Shrunken probably isn't going to make that much of a difference. From my experience though, stuns are more of a threat for channeling heroes than physical damage. If you're not getting stunned but just get carry-raped before you can finish your channel, then Void Talisman seems like a fine choice. Assuming they don't have any nukers of course, because they will make your head asplode the second you activate that thing.

Alternatively, Platemail costs 100 less gold for a 60% increase in EHP against physical attacks.

Platemail gives no stats though. It's only 60% EHP vs. physical whereas Void gives +infinite EHP vs. physical when you're being focus fired, plus +140 HP, mana, damage, ASPD and additional armor. +7 to all stats is certainly nice. I think it's a very powerful item, just situational. Really for support heroes, your goal is to get off your one or two clutch spells and then just try to stay alive so you can do it again in 10 seconds or so. You spend a lot of the time just trying not to die, in a way being your team's tank.

This principle is actually why in World of Warcraft PVP, at least when I played, "armor priests" were really effective. The best supporter in the game was the Priest class, which I played. You would ALWAYS get focus fired first due to your incredibly team healing and shield abilities. So, rather than build him to really enhance his heals (which are already pretty good), the armor build means you would get items potentially crappy for almost anything EXCEPT defense and staying alive. The enemy team would waste resources trying to kill you while your team tore them up.

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BardicKnowledge Newbie

BardicKnowledge

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Nymphora has great potential -- even though her heal doesn't directly scale, it's such a huge base number (the highest in the game) that it's relevant until very lategame. Early game you're a fountain, and if you land the heal on an enemy it's a kill more often than not.

She isn't as good of a support character as Jereziah or Demented Shaman, but the two of them are usually banned anyway. She is better than Glacius in many llineups, especially as a babysitter for Madman and Behemoth/Pebbles (to get them portkey asap). Neither has a great presence lategame, but her skills scale better than Glacius's do.

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