Heroes of Newerth

[EdgeCrusher]

I'm not gonna be on IRC for a while, if at all, so if anyone wants me to join in on a game, hit me up on AIM or yahoo or whatever. Info is in my profile.

[Tensei]

Last night's 3v3 was pretty much the best 3v3 I've played so far (still can't really compare it to the awesome 5v5s we've had though). It took over an hour and both me and zircon were completely maxed out on both items and levels.

I have one beta invite left by the way.

A few semi-helpful vids for new players:

[zircon]

I'm going to go ahead and say Scout is A or S-tier. His combo of vanish/ultimate/vanish/backstab is basically a guaranteed 700-800+ damage shot that also slows, and can be set up both easily and frequently. He can escape from any situation very easily and is surprisingly tough to kill even if you do trap him (evasion.) Because he's so fast, I found it pretty easy to get gold with him, as I could jump between lanes and neutral creeps, thus keeping up my damage output even into the late game, where his ultimate becomes a bit less effective. I thought I was going to have a really hard time with him, but actually, he's a lot of fun!

[Dr. Tran!]

So, I thought I read somewhere in here you guys had a clan or something going on. Did I see that, or was I imagining it? 'cause I can't find it anymore. Also, Tensei, do you happen to still have another beta invite available? A close friend of mine was asking me about it today, told him I'd ask you.

[bladiator]

Hey, thanks for the guild invite the other day Tensei, and I wanted to play with you guys, but I was supposed to be working on wedding stuff anyway and just waiting for my fiancee to get back with some of the odds and ends. Otherwise I would have spent all afternoon on it.

[Tensei]

So, I thought I read somewhere in here you guys had a clan or something going on. Did I see that, or was I imagining it? 'cause I can't find it anymore. Also, Tensei, do you happen to still have another beta invite available? A close friend of mine was asking me about it today, told him I'd ask you.

Sure, PM me his e-mail. First come first serve I guess.

If you want to get into OCR games, post your account name/ingame handle here so someone can add you to their friends list and send you a clan invite once you're online. This goes for anyone who wants to play with us by the way.

Edit:

Another helpful tutorial vid.

I think Scout is kind of like a Spy in TF2, in that he can have tons of kills, 0 deaths, and still be relatively useless to his team.

[zircon]

Couple new thoughts;

Kraken - C tier. His base stats and gains are nothing special, his passive is pretty useless overall, and while his charge is a pretty good escape/distance closer, his abilitie are generally too weak. He only has a small window where he can really shine earlier in the game, when Drench still does good damage. Whirlpool is absolutely hilarious but it has such a long casting time, and it telegraphs so much, that it's hard to really use properly. Definitely a playable hero, but not very godo.

Dark Lady - B. The silence -> dash attack thing is pretty cool, but she's rather fragile overall and just never seems to do a lot of damage. Not bad overall, but there are a lot of better Agi heroes.

[Clefairy]

Now seems like a good time to mention I have three keys to pass out, should anyone else want to get in on this.

I would sum up my experience with it so far as 'unforgiving'. That's not necessarily bad; playing with people well out of your league is a real challenge, and winning in that circumstance feels like an accomplishment. But, as Sporknight said a few pages back, if the other team gets an advantage over yours, it tends to stay that way.

Does anyone have advice for using practice mode? Laning with no enemy heroes doesn't strike me as terribly good practice.

[zircon]

The game itself is not too hard to be good at. The absolute, most IMPORTANT thing I can possibly emphasize is to NOT DIE. Dying is the worst thing you can do in the game. When you die, it:

* Immediately hurts you, by making you lose gold.

* Benefits the enemy team, giving them gold AND experience.

* Hurts your ability to gain XP/gold by making you wait to revive and then walk back.

* Makes it easier for the enemy team to win the game.

Early deaths are especially bad since gold is in short supply. You need to always watch your HP and the enemy distances/MP like a hawk. Do they have Magmus? Arachna? Characters that can easily slow/stun from a distance? Instant nukes? THEN DO NOT HANG AROUND FOR XP WITHOUT HEALING ITEMS. The reward of getting one last hit or kill is not worth the risk of dying.

Speaking of healing items, always (and I do mean always) buy at least a few healing items at the start. I don't care who your hero is. Being forced to run back all the way to base at level 2 or 3 because you didn't bring healing items is *almost* as bad as dying. You're simply giving the enemy more XP and gold (since you can't deny) and hurting your own ability to grow. The 90 gold runes are an excellent choice - just remember that they don't have a huge effect, so you need to start using them once you've lost even just 200 hp or so.

Lastly, when it comes to killing enemy heroes, trades are OFTEN worth it. For example, say you're playing a ranged nuker. Your enemy hero is running from you, and almost dead. It is better to chase them and kill them than to run away. If you run, all your effort (wasted HP/mana) was for nothing. If you kill them, you will probably die to tower/creeps too, but you got the XP and they didn't.

[BardicKnowledge]

Something to add to zircon's emphasis on not being gone too long (by not dying, and healing) is that the Homecoming Stone is WELL worth 135 gold, ESPECIALLY early game when you don't think you can spare the cash. Maintaining equal XP gain with the other team is important, and the portal ensures that they don't receive a huge benefit when you retreat.

[Tensei]

It's absolutely imperative that you stay in your lane for as long as possible at the start. If I'm able to bully you out of my lane ( and you best believe I'm going to try my hardest to do that ) and you have to go heal at the fountain, I get a good minute of free farming xp and gold. Advantage right there.

Also, consider hero roles. If your lane buddy is a semi-carry/carry and you're support, you should focus on denying and harassing the enemy heroes in your lane (Just take some pot-shots at them with your auto-attack). DON'T try to score last hits unless it's obvious your buddy can't get to them anyway. Obviously you won't be farming as much gold or XP, but guess what, you don't need to be high leveled with 10k worth of items in the endgame, the carry does.

[Clefairy]

The game itself is not too hard to be good at. The absolute, most IMPORTANT thing I can possibly emphasize is to NOT DIE. Dying is the worst thing you can do in the game.

This is not terribly helpful advice, because as far as I can tell all of you are way, way out of my league. If you want to kill me, regardless of my actions, odds are good that you will.

That's the biggest problem I have so far with it. There's not really any place to practice with people who are on your level; even the few noob-only pubs I've played have been stacked with Dota-heads on fresh accounts.

[zircon]

Actually, don't sell yourself short. That game, you had one semi-AFK player, but even considering that you got a good amount of kills. That's why we wanted you dead so much

[Sporknight]

What helped me is reading a few of the beginners guides on the websites, and then finding one or two heroes that you like and finding more specific guides for them. Playing with OCR helps too, because I'm always the guy going "wtf should I be doing to help?", and I can expect relatively good responses.

[Tensei]

While I understand it's frustrating to get killed over and over again, I think 'learning' the game is mostly about finding a hero that suits your playing style. After relatively unsuccesfully trying out Pollywog Priest, Electrician and Pestilence, I finally settled on Arachna, and it suddenly felt really easy to play her. Currently, she's probably the hero I'm best at.

I honestly don't think there's that much of a skill gap, clef, I mean, we've all been playing for barely a week. Overall, I think it would help you to stay close to your teammates after you reach level 8~ (depends on the hero, obviously), because that tends to be the stage where the teams will usually stop farming and will start pushing towers or ganking people. The minimap also helps a ton; if you can't see any of the enemy heroes, it's probably in your best interest to play conservatively and stay close to your teammates/towers.

Edit: and yeah, C3lly was unfortunately not really playing seriously that game, but the times that he did play 'seriously', listening to him and watching him(whether he was on the same team or the opposite team) really helped me to improve with stuff like positioning etc.

[zircon]

Some advice on teamfights. There are a few GENERAL roles your character can play.

1. Initiator. These are usually STR heroes that have good damage mitigation and/or high HP. YOU must be the one to start the fight, meaning you throw out the first attack and you put yourself first into enemy territory. Because you are going to be the first one in plain sight, you are going to get focus-fired, hence why you want good defensive abilities. The best Initiators have AOE stuns, AOE damage, and/or teleports, some of which can be obtained with items.

Examples: Electrician, Kraken, Behemoth, Magmus, Legionnaire.

2. Disabler. Your primary purpose is to stun, sleep or otherwise nullify enemy heroes. You need to coordinate with your team to pick a hero to disable first. Since team fights are big, you will often disable one target and attack another target. Why? Think about it... say there are 5 characters. If you disable one and attack the disabled one, you are receiving 4 characters worth of attacks the entire time. However, if you disable one character and attack another of the 5, then you will very quickly turn those 4 simultaneous attacks into THREE. So, again, coordinate.

Examples: Succubus, Pollywog Priest, Glacius.

3. Damage. Every character can do damage, but these guys are usually AGI or INT heroes with high-power instant nukes and ultimates. You are basically going to unload as much as you can without overkilling the target. You want to end lives as quickly as possible and COORDINATE with other damage dealers, as well as your disabler.

Examples: Moon Queen, Blood Hunter, Pyromancer, Scout, Thunderbringer.

4. Support. Though you might have some damage or disable ability, you have the extra role of watching over your teammates, either through protective spells, dispells (removing debuffs), heals or auras.

Examples: Jereziah, Accursed, Nymphora, Demented Shaman.

5. Chaser. Almost all characters can chase in some way, but some characters are really good at it. If you have significant movement-enhancing abilities, huge snares, and/or teleports, you should be the one to chase down a dying opponent. The whole team doesn't need to chase down one guy, especially if the conflict is still happening.

Examples: Scout, Blood Hunter, Arachna.

Know your role and STICK TO IT. If you're a damage dealer or disabler, don't initiate fights. If you're a support character, stop trying to do damage and heal. No matter what, coordination is needed, so LISTEN to your teammates, and if there isn't a clear order of who should die first, you'd better propose one.

---

There is no specific rule for what kind of character to kill or disable first. It really depends on who you are fighting. However, generally, damage dealers are the most lethal of all and should probably die before anything else. For example, if the opposing team is Succubus and a bunch of STR heroes, you don't need to worry about 1000 damage in an AOE, so you can target Succubus first. On the other hand, if it's Succubus and Pyromancer, Pyromancer is potentially more lethal... so go for him.

The other general rule is to not try and kill high HP characters first. They should be disabled or ignored.

[Dr. Tran!]

any advice on item advancement or something of the sort? I normally grab a bottle right off the bat, then go for Steamboots of my characters stat, then branch off from there.

[Capa Langley]

any advice on item advancement or something of the sort? I normally grab a bottle right off the bat, then go for Steamboots of my characters stat, then branch off from there.

Despite what "a lot" of guides say, DO NOT START the game with Bottle. And if you do and you were on my team, I will feed you to the crocodiles in Africa.

[BardicKnowledge]

As far as items go, I usually start with a +6/+3/+3 item, and a few +1 all items. Then first trip back is boots + tp. Don't start with boots!

Edit: I love valk's stun. FIVE SECONDS omg yes.

[zircon]

any advice on item advancement or something of the sort? I normally grab a bottle right off the bat, then go for Steamboots of my characters stat, then branch off from there.

Depends on the character and how much gold you start with. The only thing you NEED for ANY character is some kind of healing item. If your HP drops too low, you are in danger of a gank (even at level 1), and thus you are useless. So, you need healing items to survive. Even the simple Runes of Blight (90 gold) are sufficient, as they will restore about 333 hp total - a good rate of return. A health potion is 100 gold, healing 400 hp, but it will go away if you get hit. I prefer the Runes.

If your character is in for some hardcore laning - ie. Pollywog Priest, Thunderbringer, Arachna or some other good solo character - then you will want *extra* healing items, possibly mana too. If you get enough consumables you may be able to lane until level 6 or 7 without returning to town, giving you a dominant gold and XP advantage.

If you're any other character, usually getting stat items is good, as has been mentioned. If you started with ~1k gold you might want to get the +15% attack speed gloves, as it will help you last hit better with *any* character and put you closer to steamboots too. Remember that at the outset it's not necessary to complete the recipe for your +6/+3/+3 item.. you can get the +2/+2/+2 item (2x) and a +3 item, and then complete the recipe on your next trip.

The very first thing on your list when you return to town for the first time should be Marchers, almost without question. Not long after that, you want a Homecoming Stone, as well as a replenished stock of consumables if you're still going to be laning for a bit. After that, you have much more flexibility. Some general tips, based on my experience...

* If your team has the advantage, use this opportunity to save up for awesome, expensive items.

* If you're dying a lot, or your team is losing, you are probably gaining less gold and are at constant risk of losing what you do have. Buy smaller items that will be beneficial immediately. Getting a Wingbow right as your team loses is not helpful.

* Basically any character can benefit from the Boots recipes. Which you get is up to you, though Post Haste is a bit of a luxury. Enhanced Marchers should be for slower characters and those with little stun/slow capabilities, while Steamboots are better if you can already chase or escape without a problem (ie. you have a teleport, self-dispel, etc.)

* Slash is a great, cost-effective offense item. Worth getting even earlier on as it can be combined with Hack to get Hack & Slash, a great damage-dealer item.

* Helm of the Black Legion is good, but you may be better off saving for Behemoth's Heart, which is considerably better (scales better, too.) Behemoth's is basically the best defensive item in the game because it adds such massive HP and regeneration.

* Know your character role when choosing items. Are you Legionnaire? Behemoth? Almost any other STR char? Please stop buying damage items. You are naturally suited to tank, so let the AGI chars on your team focus on damage. Are you support? Get defensive items, disables and mana regeneration. Don't get damage items.

* Some classes are less item-dependent than others. Know your abilities. If your skills are all based on set damage, then focus on defensive items or mana augmentation. This would include characters like Pyromancer, Thunderbringer, Pollywog Priest, Valkyrie, etc. Conversely, characters like Arachna, Chronos and Predator need to enhance their damage through items to be effective. In some ways this means that playing INT characters is often easier than playing non-INT characters, since a good Defiler with no items can still do exactly as much damage as a good Defiler with tons of items, and a lot more damage than a Moon Queen with no items.

[Clefairy]

I think I'm starting to get my feet on the ground. I quite like Armadon, you just need the tiniest bit of mana regen to keep him going. Once he gets his ultimate to level 2, he's basically an engine of significant AoE damage. 40% less damage from behind is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Took a crack at Nymphora in 1v1 after the bulk of people left; pretty nuts. Her support potential is obscene, and she's a perfectly servicable int carry on her own. We'll see how she fares in larger games soon enough.

[Tensei]

Grabbing a bottle first is fine in lower-level games but you have to ask someone else to ward the runes and be on top of that shit all the time. I personally still prefer +stats, runes, mana and a courier-> bottle once you've farmed up 600.

To be honest I think both helm of the black legion and slash or hack and slash are pretty bad items, and overpriced for what they do. For only a bit more money than Hack & Slash you can get a Wingbow, which is infinitely more superior. HotBL just has way better/cheaper alternatives if you're looking for health regen and tanking power (Most notably Shaman Headdress, magic armor is very important early game). Both aren't really necessary on any hero IMO.

[DarkChrono]

Bottles are good, unless everyone has one. Not everyone needs to have a bottle. If you get a bottle, tell your teammates. Your job in having a bottle is to stay in one lane and constantly check for runes and grabbing them in your bottle so that it refills it. It is essentially a great solo item. Especially for certain heroes like Pestilence or Pudge(Didn't bother to remember HoN's name), the bottle is useful because of their lack of natural MP regeneration.

@Tensei - You underestimate the usefulness of Helm of the Black Legion and Hack and Slash. Helm of the Black Legion is a superior tanking item because 1. Iron Buckler costs 250, a great beginning game item. The +6 HP/Sec regen is enough for you go creep farming for a decent amount of time. And the 70% chance to black 40 damage explains itself enough. And guess what, it only costs 2225 to make.

Hack and Slash is great because the 12% movement speed STACKS with your boots. Yes, it STACKS. It also has a 15% chance of proccing a slow effect; -30% movement speed + -15% attack speed. What makes Hack and Slash? A great chaser item.

Oh, and reason why Wingbow is not vastly superior. Unless they changed it in HoN, Savage Mace (MKB in DoTA) has Truestrike passive, meaning 100% chance of hitting. That cancels out all evasion effects. If they changed it, then Wingbow is then really good, but it shouldn't be a super high priority item.

It's always good, at every game you play, to look at the 3 stages of the game: Early-game, Mid-game, and Late-game. And also make note of how many people are playing. Obviously the more people the less gold you'll start with. And in 5v5, the less gold you'll most likely be getting (unless you're the solo lane). And while you're playing, somewhat plan what items you want to get. Its nice and all to look at the big, explensive powerful items. But its a good idea to look at the mid-tier items. They're really good if you utilize them properly.

Oh, and a little friendly tip for those who get steamboots, start taking a look at phase boots . They're very good.

[zircon]

More thoughts:

Tempest -> S tier, maybe even God tier. His elementals make him a ridiculous pusher. In an earlier game, Wes (as Tempest) pushed two mid towers by himself, before level 10, and without being fed at all. His other abilities are amazing as well, including his ultimate.

Valkyrie -> B. A good all around character, but her stats are confusing. All of her abilities are active, requiring mana, yet she is an AGI hero. However, her INT gains are pretty bad and her AGI gains are nothing to write home about. She doesn't scale too well later in the game either, plus her mana-efficient long-range stun/damage dealing ability requires complete LoS... a rarity in this game (ie. if even a single creep is in the path, it won't hit the target.)

Puppet Master -> C or garbage. This guy sucks. There are many choices for better disablers, and while his ultimate is a neat concept, it's stupid in practice and other heroes have more damaging/helpful ultimates.

Pebbles -> A. While some other STR heroes outshine him, this guy can be surprisingly powerful. Targetable, damaging AOE stun plus natural tanking makes him a force to be reckoned with.

Arachna and Blood Hunter -> Switched. So, BH is A and Arachna is back to S.

Keeper of the Forest -> C. Even for a STR hero, this guy's abilities are generally not very good. His invisibility and 'ward' abilities aren't bad, but can be countered without too much trouble, and take space away from possibly better abilities. His other active is also misplaced on a character with no other damage enhancements and weak AGI gain. His saving graces are his ridiculous STR gain (3.6 - highest in the game?) and his ultimate that is one of the best disables in the game. 5-second AOE root that interrupts channeling and does 425 damage? Uhh, yes please.

[bladiator]

I gotta admit, I've never played the puppet master and he kinda looks boring, but I have seen him own some folks as a disabler. He's craptastic for having to level up, but if you can keep from getting owned early on, you can just ride the pushes and really give the enemy heroes some grief.