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level one, you never really get stats. at level 2, it depends on your lane and hero. For example, hammertorm (sven), his stun is obviously going to be your first skill. His other 2 skills don't really help at such an early stage of the game. Armor aura gives armor, but basically says that your creeps will be harder to kill, thus making the creep line go to the enemy tower. Splash damage doesn't help with such a low attack and its a waste until later.

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So, I think someone earlier in this thread said it best by saying that it really really feels like DotA, but not familiar enough to really let you fall right into it. I like what I see, and it's enjoyable enough, but already, the games that say "NOOBS ONLY 5v5" are anything but, and I'm getting roundhoused in the face. Of course, if I got on with the OCR crew it would probably be more enjoyable. But I just barely eek out a game right now on my schedule.

The thing I hate the most though is the level cap. 25 is ridiculously high. Because one of the guys on the other team started getting some crazy killing sprees, the next thing you know he's got 5 levels on me and doesn't even turn around when I'm coming and he's half health because he can destroy me in two hits. One of the things that I loved the most about DotA was the level 10 cap. It kept the game from getting way too lopsided because you couldn't get TOO TOO far away from the rest of the field before the end of the game. The "slippery slope" someone mentioned in this thread is a definite issue.

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DoTA all stars always had a level 25 cap. HoN is based off of that version.

There WAS a dota game waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when wc3 was still in the reign of chaos storyline, but i don't remember the level cap in that one. Maybe that was level 10. If not, WC3 normal matches had heroes also capping at 10. Is that what you are thinking of?

Things can definitely change if a hero levels up higher than you in this game. It is annoying, but makes it kinda fun at the same time.

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DoTA all stars always had a level 25 cap. HoN is based off of that version.

There WAS a dota game waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when wc3 was still in the reign of chaos storyline, but i don't remember the level cap in that one. Maybe that was level 10. If not, WC3 normal matches had heroes also capping at 10. Is that what you are thinking of?

Things can definitely change if a hero levels up higher than you in this game. It is annoying, but makes it kinda fun at the same time.

Ah, there it is. I was never a DotA All Stars player, always just the original DotA.

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Super sex game. Had a great 2v2 tonight. Me and Bahamut vs. Scytheful and TehDonut. Really even most of the time but eventually me and Wes (as Electrician and Behemoth respectively) won because of the better matchup we had. Opponents were Kraken and Hammerstorm, definitely strong heroes but our stun was pretty devastating.

Can't stop loving Electrician btw. FANTASTIC hero, a real bundle of joy and nigh unkillable.

Also re: some heroes being OP, that's not something new to HoN. Omniknight has always been straight silly. They'll add more counters for him when new heroes get in though, it'll balance out in the end.

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I swear I'll keep playing tempest until I'm at least decent with him, he seems so versatile.

Enigma (the dota version) really excelled in team fights, but sucks 1v1. Especially given that his minions give a TON of gold and XP on kill -- you can't run away leaving your minions for free, or it's like he gets a free hero kill in XP.

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Yeah I think he excels at farming on neutral creeps, if you get elementals on level one you can basically spend the first 20 minutes farming tons of gold and xp without having to deal with enemy heroes.

On an unrelated note, me and donut just played a 5v5 pub game, with me and donut laning together, as respectively voodoo jester and chronos. We had to lane against Behemoth and Succubus, who are both like god tier, whereas Chronos is absolute crap for the first 30 minutes and voodoo jester is crap tier according to zircon as well.

I think donut got like 3 kills on both of them before the laning phase had even ended. Absolutely ridiculous.

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Can someone invite me the OCR clan? I'm bladiator in game. Man, these "NOOBS ONLY 5V5" are such a crock. Noobs nothing.

Added to friend's list. Next time we're both online I'll send you a clan invite.

In tier-related news, I think it's pretty safe to say that Defiler is an S-class rather than an A. Her AoE silence + ultimate can easily shut down an entire team.

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Updated Tiers (again, all this is just in my personal opinion, but it would be fun to maintain this as a group)

Definitions:

God Tier - Clearly overpowered, weaknesses are too few compared to strengths, overwhelming in more situations than not.

S - Strengths outweigh weaknesses, numerous big advantages.

A - Very good hero all-around. Balanced strengths and weaknesses.

B - Solid hero, but does not have a truly strong advantage.

C - Can be powerful, but overall outshined by the upper tiers.

Garbage - No or very little reason to use this hero, obviously needs buffs. Too weak in too many situations.

God Tier - Behemoth, Magmus, Jereziah

S - Legionnaire, Madman, Blood Hunter, Swiftblade, Moon Queen, Defiler, Thunderbringer

A - Pollywog Priest, Arachna, Andromeda, Predator, Succubus, Devourer, Torturer, Electrician

B - Glacius, Blacksmith, Slither, Night Hound

C - Armadon, Chronos, Accursed, Scout

Garbage - Voodoo Jester, Pharaoh

Any player can win and be good with any hero, of course, but for example, why pick Night Hound when you could use Swiftblade? Why use Glacius when you could use Thunderbringer? Why use Accursed when Jereziah is basically just the same, but better? It's really bad in some cases. For example, Accursed's heal spell does either 250 healing or 250 damage to a single target. It also damages Accursed when he uses it. In comparison, Jereziah's heal restores 360 health AND does 360 damage in an AOE. And it doesn't hurt him at all. Uhh... OK, so Accursed's thing costs less mana and has a shorter range, but still; practically speaking, Jereziah's spell is just far superior.

Another game-deciding factor is the viability of ultimates. Some heroes have ultimates that are 'good game' when you use them, so they are almost guaranteed a kill every 30-90 seconds (making them even stronger.) For example, Behemoth's ultimate, at level 4, does a hefty 285 damage AOE plus over 100 magic damage and a 1.5 second stun. As if that weren't good enough, it also gets +65 bonus damage per enemy creep or creep corpse. It is very common to have at least 4 creeps, if not more, in a battle area - toward the end, it can be more like 8-10. So, that's over 1,000 AOE damage plus stun, and it's VERY easy to set up.

What does Pebbles, a similar Strength hero, have? Well, his ultimate debuffs himself (slows his attack speed), makes his melee damage somewhat better (probably canceled out by the slower speed), increases the range on one of his other spells, and the damage on one skill from about 60 to 100. Wow, what a godly ultimate.

Despite the gaps in strength between some heroes, HoN seems like a very balanced game to me overall. My only complaint about design right now is that killing heroes confers too much of an advantage. Think about it - if you die, not only do you lose gold, you lose positioning, you give the enemy gold and XP, allow them to push more easily (putting them closer to victory), AND your ability to gain gold/XP and maintain positioning is diminished. That's why a level advantage earned early on often doesn't change.

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Is Bahamut the same as Behemoth?

And I agree about how the levels get out of hand really quickly. I feel like a level cap of 15 would be useful to keep games from getting ridiculously lopsided. That way the losing team has a chance to catch up because the cap isn't so ridiculously far above them, but the team that is winning at the time still gets the benefits of the gold and items that they are able to procure from all the player kills. And if you brought the cap down, then you could just cut out all of the +attribute level ups and leave the skills alone.

I do like the ability to buy back in. (Which might have been in DOTA All-stars, but wasn't in the original DOTA). I don't usually do it, but it's nice to have something like that to fall back on in a real nasty push.

Oh, and who else has already turned off the announcer's voice? I don't really need to die a lot and then have it rubbed in my face. HERO OF NEWERTH!!!! SAVAGE SICK!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUULTIMATE HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERO!

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I think the beauty of having a 25-level cap is the whole concept of carry-type heroes. Even when you're forming your team, you have to decide whether you want to sacrifice that one spot for a hero that won't be very good at anything until lategame, or whether you want to secure a (relatively) quick win by ganking the opposing team's carry enough times, before it gets too strong/rich to stop.

If the level cap were lower, this entire dynamic would have to be completely different.

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God Tier - Behemoth, Magmus, Jereziah

S - Legionnaire, Madman, Blood Hunter, Swiftblade, Moon Queen, Defiler, Thunderbringer

A - Pollywog Priest, Arachna, Andromeda, Predator, Succubus, Devourer, Torturer, Electrician

B - Glacius, Blacksmith, Slither, Night Hound

C - Armadon, Chronos, Accursed, Scout

Garbage - Voodoo Jester, Pharaoh

Some heroes are hard counters to others, or synergize REALLY well on certain teams. For instance, Glacius jumps at least one tier on a team with Thunderbringer or Pyromancer. Slither counters carry heroes as he is one of the best heroes in the game until level 7 (and continues to do well until after 16). Accursed makes for much better bait than Jereziah, even though it takes a similar effort to kill each one...the list goes on.

My personal favs for each archetype of hero are currently as follows:

Nuking early -- Thunderbringer (fullscreen)

Nuking late -- Moon Queen (>1000 damage ulti if done well)

Ganking early -- Slither (poison > blink), then Magnus (awesome ulti if they can't blink)

Ganking late -- Behemoth (stun) and Defiler (spirits are amazing)

Push early -- don't do this! ugh

Push late -- Defiler (nothing can stop spirits moving forward)

Support early -- Glacius (if spellcasting team) and Jereziah tie

Support late -- Jereziah

DPS mid -- Legionnaire

DPS late -- Moon Queen / Madman

Jungling: Legionnaire

EDIT: Forum moderator gives his opinion on lategame carries: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=15362

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One thing I wanna start seeing is people stop complaining about Op heroes and using them in games again.

this game is not just CHOOSE OP HERO GG, it is about teamwork.

After seeing the IMMENSE bitching by people, I can't help but to laugh.

Fuck tier bullshit. teamwork is key. Choose your teams wisely and you can shut down any hero.

C3lly and I were talking, and we both agree. Seriously, the bitching and moaning about heroes needs to stop, cause soon EVERY hero will be "banned" if someone gets good with them.

If someone chooses a "high tier" character, who the fuck cares. Work as a team and choose heroes to shut that fucker down.

less qq more learning the fucking game and working with your team on choices

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Some team combos make it near impossible though. Example being we just played a 3v3, and we had a team of no stun vs a team of stun...it wasn't pretty at all for us. Still made it tough but it was too ridiculous for us :-( .

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Arek's mostly right -- the ONLY hero I feel deserves a nerf currently is Jereziah. Everyone else no matter how good they are is easily overcome by the right team.

Also, if you feed them early and then they're unstoppable late, that's not because they have a great endgame, it's because you suck. Don't get killed in the first 10 minutes, period. 90% of the time if you do it's your fault and the other team took advantage of your mistake.

That being said, I do agree with zircon that there are some tier differences in the current batch of heroes, and the list is worth noting for a new player. We should make a list of no-no heroes for newbies (warbeast and wildsoul come to mind).

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his name was omniknight for a reason in dota olololol

seriously though yea he deserves a bit of nerf but he still can be taken on

Some team combos make it near impossible though. Example being we just played a 3v3, and we had a team of no stun vs a team of stun...it wasn't pretty at all for us. Still made it tough but it was too ridiculous for us :-( .

whos fault was that?

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Yeah, I'm not complaining at all, just pointing out the obvious power differences in heroes. Not saying you can't win as any of them, or that any of them can't suck. But again, if you want to play a damage soaker/support str hero, Accursed is basically a worse choice than Jereziah in almost every respect. If you want big stun/trap potential, Pharaoh is OK, but Behemoth owns him.

After playing War Beast again, I have no idea what tier he is. He's REALLY hard to play, but as a support character he has absolutely insane auras/buffs.. +25% base damage and +25% attack speed, as well as a +44 damage shout. However, if you can't micro like hell, he's too hard to play, since he has absolutely no stuns. The only way to get an advantage is to micro the dogs.

Anyway, Arek, stop being an ass; MANY of us only just got this game days ago (and had never played DotA previously), and thus don't know EVERY ability of EVERY hero. That's why this kind of discussion is helpful. It didn't occur to any of us that our team had no stuns until we were well into the game.

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