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Bottles are good, unless everyone has one. Not everyone needs to have a bottle. If you get a bottle, tell your teammates. Your job in having a bottle is to stay in one lane and constantly check for runes and grabbing them in your bottle so that it refills it. It is essentially a great solo item. Especially for certain heroes like Pestilence or Pudge(Didn't bother to remember HoN's name), the bottle is useful because of their lack of natural MP regeneration.

@Tensei - You underestimate the usefulness of Helm of the Black Legion and Hack and Slash. Helm of the Black Legion is a superior tanking item because 1. Iron Buckler costs 250, a great beginning game item. The +6 HP/Sec regen is enough for you go creep farming for a decent amount of time. And the 70% chance to black 40 damage explains itself enough. And guess what, it only costs 2225 to make.

Hack and Slash is great because the 12% movement speed STACKS with your boots. Yes, it STACKS. It also has a 15% chance of proccing a slow effect; -30% movement speed + -15% attack speed. What makes Hack and Slash? A great chaser item.

Oh, and reason why Wingbow is not vastly superior. Unless they changed it in HoN, Savage Mace (MKB in DoTA) has Truestrike passive, meaning 100% chance of hitting. That cancels out all evasion effects. If they changed it, then Wingbow is then really good, but it shouldn't be a super high priority item.

It's always good, at every game you play, to look at the 3 stages of the game: Early-game, Mid-game, and Late-game. And also make note of how many people are playing. Obviously the more people the less gold you'll start with. And in 5v5, the less gold you'll most likely be getting (unless you're the solo lane). And while you're playing, somewhat plan what items you want to get. Its nice and all to look at the big, explensive powerful items. But its a good idea to look at the mid-tier items. They're really good if you utilize them properly.

Oh, and a little friendly tip for those who get steamboots, start taking a look at phase boots :). They're very good.

I still have to disagree about the usefulness of Hack and Slash and HotBL. Shaman Headdress is superior on a tank to HotBL because it provides lots of magic armor. For the first half of the game, physical attacks shouldn't be an issue at all, as the majority of the ganks will be done by nukes. My usual build on tanky heroes is something like marchers->headdress (starting with lifetube)->steamboots/e.marchers-> behemoth's heart

HotBL never really fits into an item build IMO, as there are certain items that are more geared towards specific heroes (insanitarius being a prime example of an underrated item). The same goes for Hack and Slash really. It gives lots of little bonuses which look good on paper, but in the end, as an AGI carry (which I assume H&S is geared towards), it's just much more efficient to pump the money into a shieldbreaker or wingbow for raw carry power.

Lategame, Heroes like Arachna/Moon Queen will be able to solo most of the enemy team with insane dps from wingbow and shieldbreaker, which is what you always should be striving for as a carry. Getting HnS inbetween just delays this a lot.

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H&S isn't really an endgame item, as you would be looking for on an AGI carry. It's a solid mid-game item that gives new players an obvious goal to shoot for.

That's my perspective on it, at least.

Also, zircon, Keeper's ward ability lasts forever(assuming they don't eat the tree, which I have never seen happen). That's potentially a lot of money saved watching runes. Given time you can have the entire map covered; just think of it, "mia mid" a thing of the past. Camo plus his ultimate makes him the best initiator around, doubly so with a restoration stone. The tree-weapon thing is for last-hitting and pretty much nothing else.

Puppet Master has the best single-use snare in the game, in my opinion, a solid crowd-control spell, and if you can get your team to actually hit the puppet, his ultimate is one of the fastest ways to gank a single high-level threat.

EDIT: Seen on the beta forum:

1. Kraken ults at fountain.

2. Nymphora ults from fountain to enemy group. They think it's an EZ kill.

3. ????

4. Profit!

I kind of want to do this now.

DOUBLE EDIT: Aw, it doesn't work.

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I still have to disagree about the usefulness of Hack and Slash and HotBL. Shaman Headdress is superior on a tank to HotBL because it provides lots of magic armor. For the first half of the game, physical attacks shouldn't be an issue at all, as the majority of the ganks will be done by nukes. My usual build on tanky heroes is something like marchers->headdress (starting with lifetube)->steamboots/e.marchers-> behemoth's heart

HotBL never really fits into an item build IMO, as there are certain items that are more geared towards specific heroes (insanitarius being a prime example of an underrated item). The same goes for Hack and Slash really. It gives lots of little bonuses which look good on paper, but in the end, as an AGI carry (which I assume H&S is geared towards), it's just much more efficient to pump the money into a shieldbreaker or wingbow for raw carry power.

Lategame, Heroes like Arachna/Moon Queen will be able to solo most of the enemy team with insane dps from wingbow and shieldbreaker, which is what you always should be striving for as a carry. Getting HnS inbetween just delays this a lot.

I can see where you're going. But remember that its not a bad idea to have your tank go neutral creep farming so that he can get his big items faster (being that he can farm almost indefinently). IMO, a lot of times theres too much emphasis on hero vs hero. People forget about the real objective of the game. Naturally early+mid game, you don't want to get hit be creep. The helm gives you the option to put yourself infront of your creep to take hits so that you can get a good push on one lane at mid-game. Plus most of the game not everyone on the opposing side is going on a ganking fest, thats straight out silly. Thats why constantly checking your mini-map and keeping track of the "MIA's" is extremely important. Having that type of intel can let you predict if a gank is coming, and whether you should pull back.

Hack and Slash would be more ideal for a tank. I forgot to mention that. Since tanks are meant to take damage, they're more available to straight out and run in to chase down a running hero. If the slow procs, then its almost like a guarenteed kill.

For melee agi heroes who are having trouble chasing, then the obvious pick would be Skull of the Frostwolf, or hope one of your teammates has a snare/disable of some sort.

(And IMO, I wouldn't use Arachna as an example anymore. Shes straight out OP :-P).

As for Puppet Master, overpowered IMO. Practically 3 disables. Get the hex staff and the cyclone staff. 'Nuff said.

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iirc Keeper can actually get up to quite a lot of dps with his auto-attack if you get the nature's wrath ability (or whatever it's called, the third one where he uses a tree), though he can't really be played as a carry I guess. Due to his stealth+ ult, he's an AMAZING initiator, on par with behemoth + portal key, and the eyes are invaluable, especially for earlygame runewhoring.

Some thoughts on two underplayed heroes (I rarely see them used), Hellbringer and Devourer. These guys RULE, both are at least A-class IMO. They both take some skill to play, however (Hellbringer needs to micro Malphas, Devourer needs good aim with Hook).

Devourer is a great ganker/tank/lategame pusher: his Hook-attack has 1000 (!) range, does 400 damage on level four, and pulls any enemy you hit with it towards you. Unfortunately it's not targeted, but rather aimed (Similar to Soulstealer's nuke), and will pull the first thing it finds on it's way, so careful positioning/aim is required, but it allows for RIDICULOUS ganks, i.e. pulling someone off/onto a cliff or through the trees.

In addition, devourer essentially has a free triple mock of brilliance on him (100 magic damage per second to stuff around him, including himself), which can be kept on indefinitely once you have the magic armor/regeneration to nullify the damage to self (Shaman Headdress+ Behemoth's Heart). Have I mentioned it doesn't cost any mana?

Hellbringer on the other hand is a pretty awesome support character/earlygame ganker. He has a slow and a pretty nasty DoT nuke so he can provide some great pressure in the early-game. His signature ability is mana void, which reduces magic armor (synergy with his fire-based ultimate) and makes it so that any damage the units affected by mana void take is added to his HP. This allows him to lane really really well since he can forego all healing items.

His ult can be gamebreaking in midgame; Malphas can kick some serious ass and takes down towers in the matter of a few seconds with his firebreath. Malphas+ Mana Void+ Slow+ DoT Nuke can turn a gank around in a few seconds as the massed fire damage on the enemy hero completely heals you.

Edit: ^^^^

Well if you're talking about farming neutral creeps and taking damage, that means you're probably playing legionnaire (or predator?), since every other jungling/neutralfarming hero I can think of will have something to tank for him (Tempest, Ophelia, Warbeast). I still think HotBL is unnecessary, even on a jungling legionnaire. If you open with a buckler and healing/mana, then go for lifetube into shaman headdress, then for portal key or even behemoth's heart right away (in case you won't be initiating, which is silly because legionnaire is a great initiator), you should have no trouble with creep farming and you'll get your portal key/heart really really quickly.

You shouldn't be taking damage from creeps in lanes, ever. Even when pushing, the standard strategy is to wait for your own creep wave to tank the damage, then dispatch the enemy creeps asap. Also, you'd be surprised by how much time people spend in 'ganking-mode' in midgame. That's exactly the reason why you can't really solo-farm a lane anymore after a certain amount of time, because people will be on the look-out for easy targets and generally just sticking together to either push a tower or gank someone.

Tanks are meant to tank damage. Not chase people. Don't get Hack and Slash on a tanking hero :/

Edit: I suppose Zephyr will be taking SOME damage while jungling, but you really should just be microing him well, so that his tornado's hit a lot while you're kiting enemies. He can also use his own tornadoes to heal so health regen shouldn't be a very big issue with him.

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Agreed on Devourer. I've played him several times. I put him as a solid A as well. The reason I didn't put him higher is because he is pretty fragile at lower levels, with low mana and no passives to help him kill much faster, and he pretty much needs great health regen and/or Headdress to withstand his own Decay. But you're right, his solo ganking ability is almost unmatched. Decay, Hook and then Ultimate will do massive burst damage that is literally inescapable.

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I am seeing some misinformed comments in this thread. Bottle is not an ideal item on Pestilence. Ever.

Hack and Slash is highly overrated and should only be bought under specific conditions.

Also Devourer is pretty solid but he still lacks some staples that Pudge had like being able to ult through magic immunity.

Sorry I can't help myself. I've been playing DotA for a long time and I'm the current head of the main competitive team in my clan, [iXi]The NegativeOnes.

I recognize some names on your list and I know some of you are pretty chill dudes. Our clan is based on the premise of good attitude >>>>> skill even though we are one of the better clans in terms of competitive play as well. If you guys are interested come find me online sometime. I go by antigrav. We also have a clan forum but I'd rather not link another forum on here since it's bad form.

PM me if any of you are interested for either good social or competitive play.

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Does somebody need a hug?

You have no idea.

Anyway. It's not so much him as a player or how badly he's able to crush the rest of us, it's more about what he represents. This game is inherently competitive, and the learning curve predisposes it to the hardcore. I can only imagine the amount of time he sunk into it to get where he is. If that's all that awaits me at the top of the skill ladder, then I want no part of it.

EDIT:

i'll uninstall only if he can win in a 5v1 against us!

I have to say, this would be an intriguing experiment. I think the ideal team would be something like you, me, Anso, Halt and Harmonious. Spork for sub. Hellborne side, since their creeps are better at focus-firing and consistently push towers first, when left to their own devices.

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No man I know from what I'm reading that you guys aren't super competitive. I'm just extending that my clan is a pretty good place to get better and learn the game. Also if there is talent to be found at OCR I'd love to play with/against you. I'm all about making connections with skilled players and their (inevitably less skilled) friends cause before set communities like HoN, and before that GArena, keeping connections in DotA was hard which is why many felt it was a dog eat dog experience all throughout.

Also @Clefairy, unfortunately that's how it is. This game is quite competitive by nature. It's certainly not for everyone but if you can find a solid set of friends to play with time and time again this game is just fun all around even if you never get to the competitive level.

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Since you were the one that originally gave me my BETA key, I would love to play with you. I haven't seen you on aim for a while *more than likely my fault since I have been busy with school and have been ariving home pretty late*, but I have been wanting to play with you for a while.

You have my aim. Hit me up anytime and I would love to join in. You could definitely teach me a thing or two. :)

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Sorry I can't help myself. I've been playing DotA for a long time and I'm the current head of the main competitive team in my clan, [iXi]The NegativeOnes.

I recognize some names on your list and I know some of you are pretty chill dudes. Our clan is based on the premise of good attitude >>>>> skill even though we are one of the better clans in terms of competitive play as well. If you guys are interested come find me online sometime. I go by antigrav. We also have a clan forum but I'd rather not link another forum on here since it's bad form.

PM me if any of you are interested for either good social or competitive play.

bullshit.

[ 10 character limit wat ]

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EDIT:

I have to say, this would be an intriguing experiment. I think the ideal team would be something like you, me, Anso, Halt and Harmonious. Spork for sub. Hellborne side, since their creeps are better at focus-firing and consistently push towers first, when left to their own devices.

As the team of 5 you can't possibly lose as long as you all pick stunners. Even if he manages to dominate his own lane you have two lanes of free farm as well as near infinite time to amass enough disables to keep him completely helpless. Or just outpush him because he can't be in all three lanes at once.

Also Hellbourne doesn't necessarily have better creeps. I've done many experiments in the past with just letting the game run and seeing who wins w/o hero support. It's really strange how it ends up working out sometimes.

bullshit.

Well that's helpful. Would you like to expound on your statement?

And Arek. I only have time myself for only maybe two sometimes three games a night cause of med school apps. So it's not necessarily all your fault we never play.:? Even finding time for non-competitive games with the other Remodders is tough enough.

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As the team of 5 you can't possibly lose as long as you all pick stunners. Even if he manages to dominate his own lane you have two lanes of free farm as well as near infinite time to amass enough disables to keep him completely helpless. Or just outpush him because he can't be in all three lanes at once.

The thing about that is, all the players I listed have, at best, a rudimentary understanding of those mechanics. The question I'm posing in this hypothetical matchup is "To what degree does player skill affect the game?"

Ideally, every loss of his would decrease our team's numbers by one, while every win increases it. We would then play enough games to find an equilibrium, ie, what number of people Donut can win against consistently(my money's on 3).

Of course, as our players are people and not lab rats, this would take quite a long time to complete, and keeping it scientifically rigorous would be a big stumbling block. So I fully expect this to remain in the realm of 'thought experiment'.

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Well that's helpful. Would you like to expound on your statement?

Ok. I will expound:

Why are you blatantly lying by saying ' Our clan is based on the premise of good attitude >>>>> skill even though we are one of the better clans in terms of competitive play as well. '

If you aren't lying you are completely ignorant, which just means you shouldn't talk about things you don't know. The only other option is you worded your post very poorly, in which case you should amend it or say that you didn't mean to come off as one of the better clans in terms of competitive play.

There is no clan nor team going by any of the names/tags [iXi] The NegativeOnes that are highly skilled in competitive dota. On any continent. Maybe a player list would help if you'd like to continue saying your team is one of the better clans in terms of competitive play. I'll wait.

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Wow, did you join these forums just to talk smack or something? The point eZ was making was that his clan is good, probably far better than any of us on OCR, so give it a rest. His offer is much appreciated.

I'd love to set up a friendly 5v5. Maybe Donut, Wes (Bahamut), Bardic, Tensei and myself.

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Wow, did you join these forums just to talk smack or something? The point eZ was making was that his clan is good, probably far better than any of us on OCR, so give it a rest. His offer is much appreciated.

I'd love to set up a friendly 5v5. Maybe Donut, Wes (Bahamut), Bardic, Tensei and myself.

So you're saying it would be ok if I came in here and started proclaiming I was one of the best remixers of game music? The most followed? Highly recognized? I think the point of a post is to say what you mean to say, not ' here are some words put together in sentences..but I don't really mean any of it, you should just derive the idea i'm trying to say, don't focus on any of the actual words '

No I didn't randomly join to talk smack.

He isn't helping you if he's lying to you.

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Apparently you did just join to troll this guy considering your only three posts have been in this thread... anyway, I get what you're saying, but again, he's not posting to brag about how good his team is. He's offering to help us - most of whom are NEW to DotA/HoN, having played the game <1 week, by doing some friendly games. I just don't see what's wrong with that. :|

But hey, if you're in a clan also and you want to play against us, that would be cool too. Join us on irc.enterthegame.com #ocrhon.

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Apparently you did just join to troll this guy considering your only three posts have been in this thread... anyway, I get what you're saying, but again, he's not posting to brag about how good his team is. He's offering to help us - most of whom are NEW to DotA/HoN, having played the game <1 week, by doing some friendly games. I just don't see what's wrong with that. :|

But hey, if you're in a clan also and you want to play against us, that would be cool too. Join us on irc.enterthegame.com #ocrhon.

Trolling is dumb.

I'm a long time irl friend of Donut's. I didn't register to troll this guy as is apparent from my register date.

He simply sent me this thread to laugh at and I called out this guy because he's spouting bs and likely to teach new players [ like you have admitted ] the wrong way to approach things.

He invited you for ' good social or competitive games ' There's no point in skewing a new player's view to what ' good ' actually is. I mean wouldn't you like to learn good habits from the get-go? Playing with someone lying about their skill is probably not a good way to go about that.

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