VGMix Revival

[zircon]

What makes you think you would get instant gratification at a new remix site that is, well, just like remixSite or VGmix X? What's the difference? Just the people that visit it. The way the sites work is exactly the same... that's my point, and that's why I think it's way better to focus on new ideas than just hosting whatever remix people want to upload.

[halc]

What makes you think you would get instant gratification at a new remix site that is, well, just like remixSite or VGmix X?

i never said i wanted more crappy remix sites, just one that doesn't suck.

aka a functional VGMix

[zircon]

But you can already simply post remixes at either of those sites. What would you expect a new site to do differently..? Both give you instant gratification already. You post your song and it's there. Both have rating systems and browsing. I guess what I'm asking is, what specific functionality are you looking for that these other sites don't have? As Dave mentioned we are certainly looking to add more functionality to our own WIP forum and potentially integrate that into our database, replicating that kind of "instant post" feature (albeit they wouldn't be actual OCReMixes), but it sounds like you're looking for something else.

[LuketheXjesse]

One thing about VGMix everyone loves is the community as a whole. And the whole WIP system and stuff, I've heard great things about that.

[halc]

it's not gratifying if no one is listening. all i'm really trying to get at here is that if you posted a track on VGMix2, people actually listened to it, and many would even take the time to leave a comment or review. the site was aesthetically pleasing, user-friendly, highly customizable, well-trafficked and just plain fun.

remixSite and VGMix X have none of these qualities

[prophetik music]

i agree with halc. it came down to traffic - even with a shitty track you were bound to get a few comments.

[liquid wind]

remixSite and VGMix X have none of these qualities

Aside from these obvious things, you can't even sign up at VGMixX as of now, it shouldn't be brought into this discussion at all.

[KyleJCrb]

Yep, and anyone who does have an account can't post any songs, thereby making the site almost entirely defunct.

[Level 99]

Also, and I know that this is touchy to bring up, but the name VGMix just has the renown of being "that other VG remix site like OCR but not". People knew about it, and if a new site comes up at that address or with that exact name, I know at least a few people will go there based on name-alone. Functionality does factor into long-term popularity and usage, but just like OCR, the community of VGMix is at least half the experience and enjoyment. Not only was the community ridiculously active, but that instant-post/feedback feature was key in keeping people active. The control was in the hands of the artist, and they were more motivated to make things better, and quicker, because of not having to go through any kind of wait besides the regulation posting limit (and of course the one they put on themselves while they create the song).

Now I'm just starting to reminisce, heh. The cycle was a joy in-total: post a mix, get reviewed, factor in reviews to make next song better, and do it again. Talk to reviewers and get more specific feedback, maybe even start a collab, listen to other mixes, learn and review the mixes yourself. There was a very good flow of everything...

Halc nailed it on the nose in my opinion.

[K.B.]

Since no one else after virt's post has said it, and since before then it wasn't sufficiently emphasized...

Ratings.

Without vgmix's rating system, which enabled me to be completely floored by one of the first half-dozen tracks I listened to, I never would have bothered to sort through the hundreds of tracks on ocr.

I first discovered ocr in '04, downloaded a few mixes, thought they sucked (and they did, to me), and decided 'hell, if that's all this is then it isn't worth my time'. There was no way for me to quickly sort through hundreds of mixes (and that's just among my favorite games, mind you) to find the ones that kicked ass. Same thing happened when I gave this another shot in '07. The only thing that brought me back here was seeing and clicking that vgmix link on the sidebar (which evidently badmouthed a mod or posted porn or something and has since been banned), sorting by rating and downloading from games I knew, and happening upon A Rose For Zelda.

You can't do that on ocr. Ratings don't jive with ocr's goals, and I'm cool with that. But if I hadn't been able to find a ridiculously awesome mix that was also nostalgic (remember, we're talking newb here) within the first twenty minutes of looking and listening, I would have jetted for good. And that would have been a shame. And that's what I fully believe many people do every month upon visiting ocr for the first time. And that is a shame.

A functional vgmix would not be just a wip board or place for project management or anything else so pigeonholed. It would be a complete remix site with a community, different yet mostly akin to ocr. r:ts has done a great job posting sweet mixes after vgmix 2 was killed, and I get a ton out of r:ts, but without the rating system (or a fully integrated community), it's not a full replacement.

Ah, but why not one of the other sites mentioned in this thread? vgmix was it. If it were left for dead, that would be sufficient cause for another to take up the reins. But of vgmix, not of a new site. As has been said, new sites performing the same role of another site results in a splintering of the community... of that community. No offense intended to those who obviously put a lot of time and effort into their sites (check them out; it's apparent), but should they strive to fill vgmix's shoes then they stand to do as much inadvertent harm as deliberate good. Like analoq said: carving a new niche would be the best for everyone. And if you want vgmix back, well, now that virt's shown that he's serious about this shit, get with him and see how you can help. Because vgmix's niche is still vgmix's.

So, even though some of you don't see a place for "another remix website", I am another one who does. Due to the rating system alone, it would draw in more new people to vg remixing than would ocr by itself. Being fully user-controlled, it would compliment ocr by offering a different means to accomplish the same ideal. Ultimately, it would help advance vg remixing (and all it stands for), thus being a boon for the remix community - including its listeners - as a whole. And that right there is what it's all about.

Regardless, if you read this...

I think the vgm scene does need something like the old vgmix. OCR isn't everyone's cup of tea, and it doesn't accept a few things that I would like to hear (mainly 20 minute prog epics/covers ).

...and were still unconvinced then you're out of your fucking mind.

Also: thanks, virt. Your post brought all-around awesome news. You have no idea how hard I resisted the urge to first-respond to your post with incoherent, effervescent joy-rambling. And torrents = YES.

PS: everything Tinaddar, Level 99, liquid wind, and Sinewav have said.

PPS halc: I just outdid you in ranting. What now.

[Sinewav]

Yeah. I'm going to read each page in more detail tonight, but I think you shouldn't be too quick to assume I've forgotten all about VGMix. I just needed a good training montage.

Montage!

OH YEAH! Also, last weekend, I backed up the entire VGMix2 /songs/ directory (21 gigabytes) to a flash drive and two external hard drives for good measure. As soon as I have time to organize the collection into reasonable chunks, I'm going to release it as a torrent, unless anyone objects.

Clearing off hard drive space as we speak.

[zircon]

The thing is, there are a lot of problems with rating systems. Did you notice how most of the "top tier" stuff on VGmix was either simply from popular ReMixers or popular games? It was the same on Ormgas, which had remix ratings for OCReMixes. There are a ton of amazing remixes here from obscure games, and even on THIS site - which promotes all remixes equally - they get far less attention than the new Mega Man 2, Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 6 mixes. And I'm telling you this as someone who has remixed all three of those games and been at the top of the VGmix/Ormgas charts, as well as someone who has remixed much more obscure games (Eternal Champions?) Seriously, ratings are NEVER fair when it comes to game remixes, since the nostalgic games always win out.

Don't get me wrong. I was an avid user of VGmix 2, and it was a lot of fun. But I think some of you are remembering some things wrong. With regards to the 'instant feedback', I don't know about you, but out of the dozens of remixes I had posted there, if anything hit the 3rd or 4th tier right after being released, it basically was assured to not get any new reviews. You'd get your 1-3, and that was it. Also, it tended to be just Rexy and Kwix reviewing everything. I'd say that between #ocrwip and the WIP forums here, the average WIP remix actually gets more feedback than your average submission at VGmix 2.

[prophetik music]

the community's also a lot larger than when 2 was around - like, three or four times larger. i'd be really surprised if the average wip WASN'T getting more reviews nowadays.

[zircon]

No, I don't really think that's it. It's simply inevitable with that kind of system - when you have exponentially more submissions without a similar increase in reviewers, everything will get reviewed less. Since there was no barrier of entry to VGmix, people had the incentive to simply post everything they could. I mean, that's certainly what I did. But even IF there were a similar increase in reviewers, it's more tiresome to review constantly (ask any judge here) than it is to make music, so no matter what you'll end up with fewer and fewer reviews of the greatly increasing # of mixes.

[prophetik music]

alright, so we're locked in a constant downward spiral, all music will soon suck due to the lack of reviews, everyone break out the razor blades and warm baths. we're screwed, and vgmix won't do anything to help the community. we get what you think already, andy, you don't have to just keep shooting everyone down after they post how they feel =) that's what ppr is for

if the system is so fundamentally flawed, what do you propose to do to fix it? realistically, of course.

[zircon]

Like I said, virt has the right idea. Systems to promote WIP feedback, competitions, project management, etc. We want to implement improvements in those areas as well. I have my own ideas but I'd rather see what Jake comes up with, and work with Dave and the rest of the staff on said improvements here too. Really the reason I'm posting at all is just to remind some of you that VGMix 2 wasn't the pinnacle of remixer feedback since it really did experience a continual drop in reviews, and, thanks to the rating system, many artists, games and remixes got skipped over.

[Level 99]

It had the right idea with the stats for reviews, though. And those stats being officially tracked and linked to your profile was a good way to start. Even if there are more and more people posting mixes, there will always be people to listen. If a mix is skipped over, that should tell someone that it either didn't stand out enough, or they didn't do something right, or any number of other things. In the case that it was just skipped over due to popularity, that's where the reviews stat comes into play, encouraging people to review pretty much everything.

I'm not a fan of the downward spiral angle, as then you're basically alluding to "hey everyone, don't bother ever attempting to make music or reviews because the reviews wont be enough in the end and almost all music will be glossed over unless you're a mixing guru and do mixes of only the most popular games." I don't buy that at all. The systems may be flawed but they're not self-destructive.

[Tinaddar]

Really the reason I'm posting at all is just to remind some of you that VGMix 2 wasn't the pinnacle of remixer feedback since it really did experience a continual drop in reviews, and, thanks to the rating system, many artists, games and remixes got skipped over.

You make a lot of good points here. I mean, I'm sure that constantly reviewing can get tedious and tiresome, and I'm not gonna lie and say that I plan to review everything that I hear. However, I do plan on listening to everything, and offering what advice that I can.

I can also see how songs could get overlooked, and that is a real shame. Some of my favorite songs are from games that I've never heard of, yet I will admit that I tend to listen to songs from Final Fantasy or Wild Arms first, with more optimism, and I'll generally like a song better if I already recognize the main tune. That's pretty much human nature though, and difficult to avoid. Putting systems in place to encourage people to review songs that haven't seen many reviews, or to rate songs that haven't seen many ratings would help those more obscure songs get heard.

You're probably right that VGMix 2 wasn't the promised land of feedback, and people are reminiscing and embellishing. Jake seems like a pretty intelligent guy with some good ideas though, and feedback is one of his focuses, at least so far as I understand it. He's seen what works and what doesn't, and has plans to make it better. Further, the community of video game remixing has grown (case in point: I'm here, and I wasn't before), so there are more people to make reviews. So I feel perfectly justified in my optimism. That, and if everybody THINKS that VGMix was a remixer's paradise, then people are more likely to be active reviewers when it is ready. It's like propaganda and peer pressure rolled into one: make them think that everyone is doing it, make them believe that it is true, and they'll follow suit and make it true.

[LuketheXjesse]

I will say concerning OCR's WIP forum that every time I've posted a WIP, only one person said anything. On one occasion, two people.

[zircon]

I'm not a fan of the downward spiral angle, as then you're basically alluding to "hey everyone, don't bother ever attempting to make music or reviews because the reviews wont be enough in the end and almost all music will be glossed over unless you're a mixing guru and do mixes of only the most popular games." I don't buy that at all. The systems may be flawed but they're not self-destructive.

But that's just human nature. People will prefer to review mixes from games they know, and are less likely to check out unfamiliar stuff. ANY new system should try to have some encouragement for people to review mixes from unfamiliar games and unfamiliar remixes. If you don't have that, there will inevitably be a review bias. It even happens on OCR where we spotlight everything equally (again compare my Eternal Champions mix with my CT/FF6 mixes from the same time period.) It's a shame when that happens because people miss out on good music.

Also the OCRwip board certainly isn't perfect, not saying it is, but we've made efforts to improve it and would like to continue doing so. It would be nice to not simply give up and say the only way to do it better is a completely new website. We can have both!

[Level 99]

But that's just human nature. People will prefer to review mixes from games they know, and are less likely to check out unfamiliar stuff. ANY new system should try to have some encouragement for people to review mixes from unfamiliar games and unfamiliar remixes. If you don't have that, there will inevitably be a review bias. It even happens on OCR where we spotlight everything equally (again compare my Eternal Champions mix with my CT/FF6 mixes from the same time period.) It's a shame when that happens because people miss out on good music.

Also the OCRwip board certainly isn't perfect, not saying it is, but we've made efforts to improve it and would like to continue doing so. It would be nice to not simply give up and say the only way to do it better is a completely new website. We can have both!

Haha I'll defer the argument about human nature, as Brad would say, to PPR. However, I will agree that improving the WIP boards and having a new VGMix are not mutually exclusive, and in fact we should have both.

[Keyblade]

I'm bumping this thread for the simple fact that this is important for all remixers. Is there a certain way we can:

a1.) Find another domain, because the current one has stonewalled?

a2). Make sure that domain is simpler to use (this is important because VGMix 2 was constantly bombed by hackers?

b.) Find remixers to put their old stuff from VGmix back to the new one (there are several reMixers on this site that had stuff on VGmix but not on OCRemix), and bringing traffic to said site?

c.) Contact Dwelling of Duels (a branch of VGMix itself) and asking Paragon and Rimson (the admins, as far as I know) to help out with this?

d.) The original VGMix was created for the simple fact that to get a remix through for OCR, you had to get through judges. Not to mention they could rate it and find the best songs quick. Perhaps we can contact virt and/or other former mods on the site to spitball the idea?

This is very important to consider, as the amount of content (for both sites) can in fact be doubled and each site can bring their own flavor of methods of music.

[OceansAndrew]

I'm bumping this thread for the simple fact that this is important for all remixers. Is there a certain way we can:

a1.) Find another domain, because the current one has stonewalled?

a2). Make sure that domain is simpler to use (this is important because VGMix 2 was constantly bombed by hackers?

b.) Find remixers to put their old stuff from VGmix back to the new one (there are several reMixers on this site that had stuff on VGmix but not on OCRemix), and bringing traffic to said site?

c.) Contact Dwelling of Duels (a branch of VGMix itself) and asking Paragon and Rimson (the admins, as far as I know) to help out with this?

d.) The original VGMix was created for the simple fact that to get a remix through for OCR, you had to get through judges. Not to mention they could rate it and find the best songs quick. Perhaps we can contact virt and/or other former mods on the site to spitball the idea?

This is very important to consider, as the amount of content (for both sites) can in fact be doubled and each site can bring their own flavor of methods of music.

hey dude, great idea, you should do that

[DarkeSword]

I'm bumping this thread for the simple fact that this is important for all remixers. Is there a certain way we can:

a1.) Find another domain, because the current one has stonewalled?

a2). Make sure that domain is simpler to use (this is important because VGMix 2 was constantly bombed by hackers?

b.) Find remixers to put their old stuff from VGmix back to the new one (there are several reMixers on this site that had stuff on VGmix but not on OCRemix), and bringing traffic to said site?

c.) Contact Dwelling of Duels (a branch of VGMix itself) and asking Paragon and Rimson (the admins, as far as I know) to help out with this?

d.) The original VGMix was created for the simple fact that to get a remix through for OCR, you had to get through judges. Not to mention they could rate it and find the best songs quick. Perhaps we can contact virt and/or other former mods on the site to spitball the idea?

This is very important to consider, as the amount of content (for both sites) can in fact be doubled and each site can bring their own flavor of methods of music.

Hey, maybe you should read the thread instead of bumping it and basically reiterating a bunch of stuff. If you did you'd realize that virt already posted here about his plans for VGMix and that djpretzel also posted that we're exploring some similar functionality for a Workshop overhaul.

In any case, as much as I like VGMix (I released quite a number of songs on VGMix 2), these forums are not VGMix development forums. If you're serious about doing something about getting that site back up and running, VGMix still has their forums online. Have fun and good luck.