OCR TF2: Stab stab stab!

[chivesontheweb]

they should leave the pyro alone

So the Pyro is fine now?

[atmuh]

id say so yeah

[ParanoidDrone]

atmuh, I'm sure you realize this, but currently the Pyro's shotgun outdamages the flamethrower. Hell, the Medic is even stronger now, especially if they choose to break out the Blutsauger. Spies can gun a Pyro down with the Revolver point blank while taking a flamethrower to the face and inflict critical damage if not kill him outright. (The Spy will die either way though.) Tell me with a straight face that this is reasonable.

For all the good it does the Pyro, the flamethrower may as well be an airblaster that happens to set people on fire so he can still use the Axetinguisher.

[The Author]

The shorter burns also make the axtinguisher not as good.

[atmuh]

rewarding players that can actually aim?

ummm yeah of course thats reasonable

[ParanoidDrone]

Then tweak the flamethrower's properties so that it better rewards aim, but don't nerf it so that damage wise it's outright inferior to almost every other weapon in the game.

[Triad Orion]

I've noticed I tended to be far less effective with the Pyro than I used to be. Not to say I'm exactly good at the game to begin with, but it definitely seemed like fire was a lot less powerful than it used to be. I honestly hadn't read the patch notes before the 119th update because I hadn't played in months.

I like the idea that they're trying to reward proper aim and usage of the Flamethrower. So I'm with Atmuh on the idea of rewarding skilled playing. Before the Flamethrower could be pretty brainless (and was probably why I was decent at it), but I don't think an out-and-out pure damage nerf is the answer. Nerfing the damage for indirect hits and grazes with the Flamethrower and the reduced burning time is fine. But if you're getting hit with a concentrated stream of fire up close and personal, that should do some real damage. Encourage playing the Pyro as it's meant to be played: An ambusher and close-quarters controller.

[The Author]

Longer range, thinner column?

Actually, I think they should bring back airblast to 25 in ammo, and give it some fire damage, like a third of what 25 of burning would do and set people on fire.

[Triad Orion]

Interesting thought, but I don't think anyone would use the compression blast like that. As it is, it works very well for interrupting enemy movement and it makes projectiles in return mini-crit. Also, it's meant to extinguish allies as well, so giving it fire damage would be kind of counter-intuitive to that feature.

The Compression Blast works very well as is, thankfully. I suck with it, but I really, really like how it conceptually works. I think it's just how the fire from the Flamethrower works in general that needs a tiny bit of tweaking. But I think Valve will come up with something that works nicely. They usually do.

[ZealPath]

I have kind of been enjoying playing "shoot first, burn later" Pyro, but at the same time it doesn't really seem to be what the "Pyro" class should be doing primarily. I'll be interested to see what Valve comes up with after already tweaking it a couple times now.

[Vivi22]

I have kind of been enjoying playing "shoot first, burn later" Pyro, but at the same time it doesn't really seem to be what the "Pyro" class should be doing primarily. I'll be interested to see what Valve comes up with after already tweaking it a couple times now.

This pretty much though I haven't been enjoying it much. The Pyro should be first and foremost an ambush and close quarters class. They shouldn't be losing one on one with Medics and Spies and they sure as hell shouldn't be losing to them after managing to ambush them.

And since when is it not cool to reward players for ambushing and flanking their opponents? It's not like it's that easy to do all of the time, and the Pyro didn't exactly win that often rushing headlong at most classes before, unless they were a particularly good compression blaster charging a soldier or something. I can see the argument about wanting the Pyro to reward skilled players more, but all people like atmuh are really saying is that flanking your enemy and getting in a position to maximize the damage you do is somehow not a skill. Bullshit.

As is, I've probably killed more people with the airblast than by actually setting them on fire since the nerf. It's exceedingly rare that anyone dies from actually being hit by the flamethrower, even when I do completely get the drop on them. So by and large, the Pyro is now substantially less useful for the purpose he was originally designed.

[SporkNinjaDraken]

Personally I've been doing things slightly differently as a pyro but I tend to go for burn first then airblast them into a wall so I can shotgun them at my pleasure or just airblast them so they travel a predictable path so that I can shotgun them in the face.

I do however miss being able to really damage people with fire though.

[Triad Orion]

The Shotgun is a serviceable weapon, but it's very vanilla and it's not meant to be a main weapon for a class. The Engineer doesn't really count in this regard, considering his Sentry is effectively his main gun.

The fact that the Shotgun has stopped being a fallback weapon for Pyros and is now almost the go-to weapon shows something's wrong mechanically with the Flamethrower. The Shotgun has a very important place in the arsenal of a Pyro, but it shouldn't be something he has to use more often than his Flamethrower.

[The Author]

Truth is, nowadays if you run into a medic + anything else, you're dead before the medic unless you use the backburner. Every once in a while you get lucky with a rocket reflection, but soldiers ain't stupid, so now they use shotguns against pyros. If you're up against a demo, they either have a shield that prevents some of your damage, or a sticky launcher that you can't do much about.

Scouts can run backwards and still evade you, and snipers have piss to extinguish you. Spy checking works, but as it was said, a burning spy can plug your skull with the ambassador if you don't kill them fast enough. Against pyros, you have what I call the pyro salute: you both bounce back and then move on to better targets or use the shotgun like a scout wannabe.

Yes, you can still kill as a pyro, but you have to be much much more opportunistic, and to me that isn't skill, that's just a player hanging back only to get the scraps. Or you can become a spy prevention tool around a turret, the homewrecker kinda gives you that role now.

So other than developing a skill to aim for the downed target I don't see much happening to the pyro other than a buff to either the damage, the functionality of the weapon, or even just speed, without breaking the class. It's already quite fragile at this point.

[Vivi22]

Truth is, nowadays if you run into a medic + anything else, you're dead before the medic unless you use the backburner.

I wish it was just a medic + another class that can kill the Pyro at close range. I've actually been killed by backpedaling Medics that I ambushed who just managed to react quickly, and they don't go down because I can't damage them fast enough and the afterburn is pretty much useless. Medics really shouldn't be beating many classes 1 on 1, especially when they're taken by surprise. Now sure it doesn't happen all of the time, but it's often enough that there's something wrong.

A Medic with a buddy should definitely have a shot, but their best option on their own should be running, not facing the Pyro down.

[Triad Orion]

I wish it was just a medic + another class that can kill the Pyro at close range. I've actually been killed by backpedaling Medics that I ambushed who just managed to react quickly, and they don't go down because I can't damage them fast enough and the afterburn is pretty much useless. Medics really shouldn't be beating many classes 1 on 1, especially when they're taken by surprise. Now sure it doesn't happen all of the time, but it's often enough that there's something wrong.

A Medic with a buddy should definitely have a shot, but their best option on their own should be running, not facing the Pyro down.

This is especially true with the Blutsauger, which will make the afterburn *entirely* useless. A standard Syringe Gun can be threat enough, but if the Medic's healing all your fire damage with his attacks while killing you, you're pretty much done unless you can manage to use the Shotgun against him effectively.

Even that can be kind of a crapshoot if the shotgun spread doesn't work in your favor.

[SporkNinjaDraken]

fortunately on OCR spread is not an issue we all shoot in Squares =D

but yeah I miss being able to kill people in TF2 lol I mean I can still and I've got some reflect kills which I'm pretty proud of which the change but I'm so easy to kill now it's ridiculous.

[chivesontheweb]

I'd go off about Pyro but I'll wait to see what changes occur this week till I do that. Basically, I love the airblast and it's what makes Pyro fun for me but I no longer see a tight and focused vision of the Pyro's class duties. He's sort of mixed up, and although I have a lot of fun playing Pyro I don't feel my purpose goes beyond mopping up enemies who were stupid enough to let me in close. I'm basically a janitor.

[Kinslayer]

The only reason I like Pyro is because I'm getting used to the range of the Flare Gun...which actually taught me how to play Demoman better...XD

[The Mutericator]

fortunately on OCR spread is not an issue we all shoot in squarewaves =D

Fixed.

I had one reflect kill yesterday, and right after the crazy Pyro changes went into effect, the first thing I did was to get a point-blank Huntsman reflect kill, which I felt good about (shaaaame on that Sniper for lucksmanning). But yeah, it sucks lighting a big group on fire, knowing you're pushing them back, maybe dropping the heavy or medic... and then none of the rest die, even if you did a lot of good maneuvering. I'd like to see the flamethrower go back up in damage, even if lingering flame doesn't. Or maybe a small increase in shotgun fire speed...

Really, they should change the class roster and put Pyro under defense, since that's more what he's supposed to be. Even when on the front lines, you're just support, reflecting explosives and keeping enemies from getting too close to your heavy + medic, and on defense, you're ambushing enemies and knocking off sappers. There's very little if any offense involved.

[Powerlord]

Edited just to screw with atmuh and see if he notices.

Fixed.

I had one reflect kill yesterday, and right after the crazy Pyro changes went into effect, the first thing I did was to get a point-blank Huntsman reflect kill, which I felt good about (shaaaame on that Sniper for lucksmanning).

If it was on cp_freight, it was probably me. And yes, I tend to use the Lucksman as Sniper. I prefer the closer range combat than running away and shooting people from a distance. The Huntsman also promotes a shoot and duck behind cover playstyle. The lack of scoping dot is a big help for killing unaware enemies. The fact that you can't miss at point blank range (except on airblasts) is a big plus, too.

Seriously, if you want to do a test, have an enemy stand in front of you, move up to point blank (or at least fairly close), and while still facing them, look straight down and shoot your arrow. Instant headshot.

[atmuh]

The airblast has never been 25 ammo. It started at 50 ammo and was changed to 30 ammo in one of the recent patches.

uh what

[Powerlord]

uh what

er... wasn't it? *researchs* Whoops, nope, I guess not... used to be 25 and got knocked to 20.

[atmuh]

and i really do enjoy all these people that used to just run around as a pyro with their eyes closed holding m1 and still end up getting kills all UP IN ARMS that their beloved [braindead] class has to be played intelligently now (although it still isnt remotely useful)

[Powerlord]

Required updates for Team Fortress 2 and Counter-Strike: Source Beta are now available. Please run hldsupdatetool to receive the updates. The specific changes include:

Engine:

- Improved crash reporting system to enable more detailed crash reports

- Fixed a client crash caused by a buffer overflow while processing temp entities

Counter-Strike: Source Beta:

- Fixed not being able to add bots to the game using the Create Server dialog

- Fixed some movement ConVars to match the current Counter-Strike: Source settings for default values and flags

- Fixed several rubberbanding/stuttering issues with objects and players

- Fixed several ConVars (sv_accelerate, maxspeed, etc.) being hidden

- Fixed bloom problems

- Fixed a server crash caused by malformed client autobuy string

- Fixed developer console output being on by default

- Fixed "Report Bug" in the main menu not working

- Fixed the missing icon for the desktop shortcut

- Fixed the "rebuy" command not buying the correct items depending on the order they were purchased in

- Fixed the clock image in the spectator HUD being clipped

Team Fortress 2:

- Fixed a case where the Spy could start taunting and cloak at the same time

Flamethrower changes:

- Increased base damage 10%

- Afterburn duration increased (from 6 to 10)

- Flares that hit a burning player at mid-to-long range will crit

- Reduced Backburner damage bonus from 20% to 15%

So, it turns out this update was a buff rather than a nerf for Pyro.