Musical Modes!

[SLyGeN]

So for the past couple of days, I've been rearranging Major-key Pokémon tunes so that they're in a minor-sounding mode, and posting them on youtube for a couple of reasons..

-Nobody's really done much of it

-Lots of people recognize the source material

-It sounds fucking neat

but perhaps most of all, being shown this concept is pretty much what turned me into a musician. I found it to be completely mind-blowing, and hopefully some people here will be affected the same way.

Plus, as much as I need to work on my mixing skills.. from what I've seen in the WIP forum, many of us here don't know theory as well as we should. Have a listen to a few of these, and imagine how much variety and color it would add to a mix.

I'll likely keep doing these if it gets some interest.

[Abadoss]

If you want some theory stuff to keep your head spinning for a long time, check out Dmitri Tymoczko theory of Chord Geometry. Here's the link (check under software). Have fun.

[SLyGeN]

Says file not found. I'm definitely interested, though. Please tell me it's more than just music derived from algebra.

[Abadoss]

Says file not found. I'm definitely interested, though. Please tell me it's more than just music derived from algebra.

That's because I put a random quotation mark in the link. It should work now.

[DrumUltimA]

Man, I've been thinking of arranging Narshe from FF6 in a completely octatonic tonality... but since the first chord is primarily half-diminished and not fully diminished, I was thinking of super-imposing whole tone on top of the octatonic... or something...?

[Gollgagh]

Man, I've been thinking of arranging Narshe from FF6 in a completely blazkowiczic gardonity... but since the first hoodickle is primarily half-thangalunged and not fully thangalunged, I was thinking of hyper-flangifying whole tone on top of the glafgogozkick... or something...?

what that sounds like to me

[Gario]

The tone geometries looks suspiciously familiar... Not the same thing, I know (one uses pantonal transformations on tonal networks, while the other uses it's own system), but it's very similar.

Looking at the deriving article, it's funny that I actually know one of the writers (Ian Quinn) - he currently resides in Albuquerque as a music director. Interesting; I'll read that article as soon as I can.

[Skyline Drop]

Maybe I just haven't a solid enough hold on my theory, but I'm not really sure how using a whole-tone scale superimposed over anything will get you a half-diminished chord. There are two many minor thirds, which a whole tone scale wouldn't allow.

An octatonic scale would allow for either fully- or half-diminished chords, but only the fully-diminished variety would come from stacking thirds.

I think. I don't have a piano keyboard at hand to work this out right now.

Slightly more on-topic: screwing with the modality of popular melodies is always good fun.

[Kidd Cabbage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1n69jTArI

[DrumUltimA]

Maybe I just haven't a solid enough hold on my theory, but I'm not really sure how using a whole-tone scale superimposed over anything will get you a half-diminished chord. There are two many minor thirds, which a whole tone scale wouldn't allow.

An octatonic scale would allow for either fully- or half-diminished chords, but only the fully-diminished variety would come from stacking thirds.

I think. I don't have a piano keyboard at hand to work this out right now.

Slightly more on-topic: screwing with the modality of popular melodies is always good fun.

I would use the whole tone to get the major third that lives on top of a half-diminished chord. The bass-line that opens the theme would also work well in a whole tone setting. I would mainly just have the two juxtaposing eachother just because they're so different... as an alternative to the middle ground we have already called conventional tonality

[Gario]

An octatonic scale would allow for either fully- or half-diminished chords, but only the fully-diminished variety would come from stacking thirds.

Awesome fact about Octatonic scale - if you take out any fully diminished 7th from the chromatic scale the remaining notes form a perfect octatonic scale.

Back on topic.

[SLyGeN]

That's because I put a random quotation mark in the link. It should work now.

I'm not getting any sound from the software. Does it do more than just represent notes graphically? Can it modulate what I input to give me a chord progression based on his theory?

Also, if I bother to modulate any other VG tunes, the Mario theme is one that I need to get around to. Powerglove's version works well for a guitar piece, but I'm just not personally a fan of natural minor (as opposed to using melodic and harmonic minor).

I'm pretty sure Mario's theme has some chromaticism, too, which would ultimately be up to the judgment of the mixer as far as where to put them. Until I've arranged it myself I suppose I shouldn't complain.

Man, I've been thinking of arranging Narshe from FF6 in a completely octatonic tonality... but since the first chord is primarily half-diminished and not fully diminished, I was thinking of super-imposing whole tone on top of the octatonic... or something...?

Do it and post it in the WIP forums, along with a midi. I want to check out what you do.. I wouldn't even know where to begin with an endeavor like that. But, if the first chord is half-diminished, just make it fully-diminished. You can't introduce new modality with the intent of keeping every chord quality the same, that would make no sense

Also, which octatonic scale of the two do you plan to use? I'm partial to that which begins with a half-step, if that counts for anything.

[analoq]

I used to amuse people in highschool that way - rearranging familiar tunes in minor keys and performing them on piano. I did minor key versions of the Star Spangled Banner, My Country Tis of Thee, etc. I don't have any recordings of these but for Christmas in 2004 I did a minor key recording of Silent Night and sent it to my friends:

http://apmatthe.ws/random/analoq_silentnite.ogg

I hate Christmas. And Christians.

Awesome fact about Octatonic scale - if you take out any fully diminished 7th from the chromatic scale the remaining notes form a perfect octatonic scale.

My mind is blown.

[prophetik music]

good to see we're keeping the ppr in the ppr section nice track, though, analoq.

if and when the pkmn project ever releases, you'll notice my track is in a mix of dorian and traditional minor, and it's just a retonicization of the original track (regardless of what the judges decision on it was, with them saying that it didn't sound like there was any source in it). it turned out pretty good, i think.

[DrumUltimA]

good to see we're keeping the ppr in the ppr section nice track, though, analoq.

if and when the pkmn project ever releases, you'll notice my track is in a mix of dorian and traditional minor, and it's just a retonicization of the original track (regardless of what the judges decision on it was, with them saying that it didn't sound like there was any source in it). it turned out pretty good, i think.

hey prophet lets argue about theory! just like the good ol days!

Do it and post it in the WIP forums, along with a midi. I want to check out what you do.. I wouldn't even know where to begin with an endeavor like that. But, if the first chord is half-diminished, just make it fully-diminished. You can't introduce new modality with the intent of keeping every chord quality the same, that would make no sense

Also, which octatonic scale of the two do you plan to use? I'm partial to that which begins with a half-step, if that counts for anything.

That's the one that I like. Though, I'll probably mix it up a bit. I played a work by Peter Klatzow on my recital this year, and his tonal language is mostly octatonic. I would probably emulate the way he writes:

[prophetik music]

i WANT to, doug. pick a topic!

[Gario]

if and when the pkmn project ever releases, you'll notice my track is in a mix of dorian and traditional minor, and it's just a retonicization of the original track (regardless of what the judges decision on it was, with them saying that it didn't sound like there was any source in it). it turned out pretty good, i think.

I can't say for sure (since I'm not on that project), but look at the tune and ask yourself if it isn't simply primary mixture goin' on. Just because the sixth of a scale is raised from time to time doesn't quite mean it's Dorian - that mode has a different function as well as a different scale degree.

If it really is Dorian, though, I can't wait to hear it .

hey prophet lets argue about theory! just like the good ol days!

hey HEY! That's what this thread was for! No one ever argued theory in there except me, though, so it died down . Someone necro that thread's ass and we'll all discuss some theory maaaagic...

... please?

Alrighty, I'm listening to SLyGeN's tracks now... The Vermilion City track, I'm afraid, expresses a common misconception of the use of modes. If you simply switch around the scale degrees to match the 'mode' you're playing in, the music will sound forced and unnatural, since it'll sound like a Major/Minor scale with incorrect notes (and, for that matter, in order to cadence the scale & balance the track it will revert to Major/Minor mode). In order to properly function in a mode every changed note needs to have a complete change in functionality, as well - lowered second in Phrygian, for example, really functions in the exact same way as the raised 7th in Major/Minor and the 7th never moves (it always remains flat). That's the primary change that gives Phrygian it's distinct flavor, which people never apply when using that scale. Functionality changes in modal music.

Of course, it is interesting to listen to, nonetheless, so don't worry about it much - just be aware that it's a bit of a misunderstanding about modes that is extremely common. The more you know, the better, right?

I'm liking the Minor Cerulean track. It fits the track quite well. Just... be careful with some of the background notes - one of the chromatic runs are sour, and there are a couple of spots in the beginning where the old key sneaks in there in the harmonies.

Ditto with the Celadon track (minus the errors - the track has no sour notes). Lovely stuff .

[SLyGeN]

Thanks for taking the time to listen, Gario. I guarantee there are mixing and harmonizing errors out the ass on perhaps all of these, because I can't take the time to do a full remix of every one of these tunes.. although, perhaps the time will come where I end up submitting a lot of material to this website (perhaps when I'm in school again and have 24/7 access to Logic 9 ) and I'll make modal modulation my thing. Phrygian Tetris A sounds good to me right about now.

But, I'd like to comment on your thoughts on Phrygian. I do agree that when hearing the lowered 2, it's a necessity to find your way back to the tonic in short time. But personally I see no problem if the composer wants to deviate from that rule every so often.. the age in which musicians were forced to adhere to specific rules ended with the Classical era.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure just about every time Vermilion hits the tonic, it's a descending motion. Perfect for Phrygian. So what if degree 2 briefly hits the upper-neighbor before going to the tonic?

Also, if you're working with natural minor and you do raise the 6, you really are in Dorian. I don't know why you would disagree. Modes aren't based on voice-leading, they're based on the intervalic structure of the given scale. Dorian with shitty voice leading is still Dorian. In fact, Dorian has no "sensitive tones" (by that I mean degrees that lead to the tonic or dominant by a half-step in either direction), so I would say that Dorian is too versitile to say minor voice-leading absolutely cannot parallel Dorian voice-leading. If you ask me, just make sure you tonicize and hit the third and sixth degrees relatively often, since they're the ones that really set Dorian apart from the rest of the modes.

Also, I want to argue about theory, too. What were some of the more heated topics?

Oh, and good one @ analoq. I thoroughly enjoyed that.

[Moseph]

hey HEY! That's what this thread was for! No one ever argued theory in there except me, though, so it died down . Someone necro that thread's ass and we'll all discuss some theory maaaagic...

... please?

I have a Schenkerian analysis of the Mario theme that might provide fun times. I'll maybe type it up and post it if I get a chance.

[Abadoss]

It's not so much music theory as it is musicology, but my friend just delivered his Master's thesis today and I thought it would be really relevent to OCR. I asked him if he'd be willing to post it here.

[Gario]

I have a Schenkerian analysis of the Mario theme that might provide fun times. I'll maybe type it up and post it if I get a chance.

Hell... yes. Please do. And musicology would be awesome, too, especially since that was an area that my school was woefully lacking in.

But, I'd like to comment on your thoughts on Phrygian. I do agree that when hearing the lowered 2, it's a necessity to find your way back to the tonic in short time. But personally I see no problem if the composer wants to deviate from that rule every so often.. the age in which musicians were forced to adhere to specific rules ended with the Classical era.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure just about every time Vermilion hits the tonic, it's a descending motion. Perfect for Phrygian. So what if degree 2 briefly hits the upper-neighbor before going to the tonic?

Oh, I really have no 'problems' with your use of Phrygian (people do that sort of thing all the time, so it's expected). I just wanted to take the opportunity to explain that in a truly modal song the notes are not the only thing that you change, if you wanted to truly write in a different 'mode'.

And no, composers in the Romantic era adhered religiously to the rules of Counterpoint (which is not the same thing as harmony, and is the doctrine that I'm discussing now). In modern times it changed, but even then there has been some 'direction' (and a lot of 'Don'ts' that everyone follows, when it comes to realizing that direction), so don't fall under the illusion that composers after the Classical era just did whatever they wanted (that's what they WANTED you to believe ).

Also, I want to argue about theory, too. What were some of the more heated topics?

Go to that link. Start something up - I'm always game to discuss theory on here, so at least one person (and probably more) would discuss it with you. The discussions in the thread rarely became debates, per se, but things popped up periodically that could interest you, in there, so take a look.

Theory is interesting in that it's a subject that two people can have two completely different opinions and both be absolutely correct (Moseph and my own opinion expressed at the end of the linked thread on Zelda is a great example of two people having different yet no less correct opinions on a track, I believe), since it's the study of expressing what one hears in the music. That's not to say there are no wrong answers, but it's quite an interesting subject that can result in opening one's ears, if discussed.

[SLyGeN]

So say I'm playing a melody on all the white keys, and my tonic is E. Every time I hit F, I opt for a different note instead of E... like B or something. You're gonna tell me I'm not playing in the Phrygian mode?

[ambinate]

I might be off-base here, but I think part of what Gario is saying is that writing in a mode involves more than just which notes you use. How you use those notes is also important. For example, if you wanted to take a tonal piece and make it truly modal, you'd probably have to make substantial changes to the harmony and chord progressions of the piece, because something like the tonic-dominant relationship that's so important in tonality isn't always a major aspect of modal music. Melodies in tonal pieces are written differently than modal pieces, as well - there are different leading tones, so melodies are structured differently. In the same way that there are basic rules that are followed in order to make sure something is in a certain key, there are some basic ideas that are usually involved in writing music in a certain mode.

Gario will be a lot better at explaining this because I don't think I've actually said anything of value yet. Whoops!

[prophetik music]

oh, totally. the whole point of modes is that it's the same pitch class of every other mode based around that major key - like, a dorian is the same as c lydian and d mixolydian and f# locrian. it's how those pitches are used - what's tonic, where the dominant is (in a dorian, the dominant isn't D, which is major, or e, which is a form of v, but actually G, which is VIII), etc.

that's the point of all alternate tonal structures, really - it's not the size of the pitch class set, but how you use it

[Gario]

So say I'm playing a melody on all the white keys, and my tonic is E. Every time I hit F, I opt for a different note instead of E... like B or something. You're gonna tell me I'm not playing in the Phrygian mode?

Adamantium Dude said it quite well - it's not the notes themselves that determine a true church mode, but how you use them. Functionality is truly a separating issue when it comes to writing real modal music. What it'll sound like otherwise is music that's in the key of 'E' (or wherever the major/minor tonic is) but keeps returning to the wrong place (I just got some music from Battletoads up here - it's in C Minor but spends the majority of it's time on the AbM triad, even to the point that it starts + ends on the AbM triad, in the source... It's not in Ab lydian, despite the fact it hangs out there more than it does on C).

Interesting fact (one you probably know informally, via 'It's all the white notes rearranged', if you look at a keyboard, but here it is formalized) - every single scale, every single mode is derived from a single Forte pitch class 7-35 (013568A). Thus, unless you're going to incorporate syntax or grammar into the scale, all of them are technically going to sound the same, since they all derive from the same set. Functionality in tonal/modal music is everything, when it comes to distinguishing one key/mode from another (the breakdown of modal, then tonal music occurred because people broke away from the rules that followed... from Palestrina to Schoenberg it's observable that the functionality between keys is broken down and eventually gave way to Classical tonality, Romantic tonality from early to late Romanticism, eventually leading to Schoenberg pantonality - it's quite interesting... Webern's 'Path to New Music' discusses that in detail, I highly recommend it).

A wordy way of saying what other people on here are trying to clarify, but I hope this helps.

it's not the size of the pitch class set, but how you use it

That... is quotable material, right there, lol.