Mega Man 7 "Junk Male" (YET AGAIN, 10TH JULY)

[The Radical Sifu]

The old thread dropped off the face of the earth, so here we go again. This is as close to finished as I can get without your help, good people of OCR.

LATEST VERSION (10th July 2010): http://cbnow.co.uk/theradicalsifu/Mega_Man_7_Junk_Male_4.mp3 (4.54mb)

Original MM7 level theme is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVsL6a20zPA

*nervously awaits feedback* :S

EDIT: have updated the link, see newest post below for comments on the new version.

EDIT 2: Have marked the thread for mod review as I think I am on the final stretch towards subbing.

[Manoo2k]

Well, i'm no remixer myself, in fact this is my first post and I created this user just to reply here.

Overall, I liked this remix, but if I had to point things I didn't like, i would say the drums.

The percussion is way too basic for its style and after some seconds of listening to it I kinda got tired of the drum loop, and mostly because the song itself is alot more unpredictable. The rest seems okay to me and I really enjoyed it since I've always liked this song.

Feel free to ignore my opinion since, like I stated before, I'm no remixer myself.

[The Radical Sifu]

Any ideas on how the drums could be made 'less basic'? I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that. Is it just the repetition that makes it basic, or is the drum sequencing itself somehow crude?

[Gario]

I like the scape you created with your instrument choice. Except the drums - let's clarify what Manoo2k was talking about (and everyone can make constructive comments, dude - not being a mixer does NOT mean your input has no value). The drum beat is a simple rock beat, throughout, which WILL drive the J's nuts. The rest of the mix is great, but the drums need more variety. Change up the beat more often, and I'd even go so far as to say change the drumset to something more fitting to your track (Electronic drumset, DnB set, possibly). It will take this track to new heights.

The Metalman part at the end sounds... slapped on. I love Metalman as much as anybody, but it doesn't work, in this case. I would recommend one of two things for that - either take it out completely or use the Metalman source throughout the track in smaller bits, building up to the ending. I'd be interested to hear the track if you did the latter, but the former would be an acceptable solution, as well (just be sure to make another ending, to end the track properly).

Otherwise, great stuff - I'll be keeping an eye on this one.

[The Radical Sifu]

Agree totally with the Metalman comment. I like that section, but the transition from one track to the other is horrible. Largely because there isn't really a transition at all. I'll see what I can do with it.

I feel like I need to defend my drums though. I hear what you are saying, but, eh. Throughout doing this track I specifically wanted to do something 'Pendulum-y' and that's the sound I've used as a reference. I'm pretty happy with my drums the way they are (and they are in fact a great deal more varied than they would be in most any Pendulum track). It's always seemed a wee bit silly to me that conventions that are perfectly acceptable in mainstream, commercial, professional music are suddenly completely taboo on OCRemix, like everyone has suddenly got ADD when they're listening to drum beats. Doesn't it seem crazy to anybody else that hundreds of popular, critically acclaimed and successful professional electronica artists wouldn't be accepted under OCR's submission standards? That kind of driving, constant beat was what I was aiming for. Of course I can change it up and make it more varied, and change the drum kit, but... well... I don't think I can do it without compromising my own basic vision for what I was trying to do. If you see what I'm saying.

So, um, maybe I'm stuck.

[BlackPanther]

Imma listen to this sometime today and give my input. And I like how you defend your work you definitely have a point with what you said and honestly, I don't think anybody can argue. But yeah I'll either edit this post or just make a response dependin on if someone else replies.

[Gario]

Well, it's the nature of the OCR beast - I would like to see some critically acclaimed artists try to get on here and fail, one day (I mean, let's see Megadeth's Duke Nukem remix get rejected on here because it's too 'coverish' and see the public response to that, lol). The comment with the drums will most likely remain with the judges, though, so keep that in mind (it's one of those things I've personally been hammered on more than one occasion, with my own mixes).

Changing the drum kit was more a personal suggestion of what I would do with it, but you can make it work without changing the kit (I just felt it would be easier for you to make the changes if the kit was changed). I can assure you, though, that if your goal is to get on OCR then the drums will need to have some more variety.

You said you have a vision that you don't want to ruin, so let's start from there and I'll see if I can make any more specific/helpful comments, based on that. I know your plight - my submission to the 'Hurry' album is extremely repetitive and long, too much so to even be considered to be on OCR, but the genre that I wrote it for actually specifically calls for it to be that long + repetitive so I cannot change it. What are you going for specifically that the drums fulfill? I didn't quite understand the 'pendulum' comment, because I didn't hear that effect from the music rhythmically nor melodically, so could you be more specific?

[The Radical Sifu]

I didn't quite understand the 'pendulum' comment, because I didn't hear that effect from the music rhythmically nor melodically, so could you be more specific?

I was thinking mostly in terms of the general sound balance, the way Pendulum use these fast drum-n-bass esque beats with a rock-y sensibility, the use of hoover synth and saws, etc. I'm not saying it actually sounds like a Pendulum track because it doesn't: I wanted it to sound like a Mega Man track and a Radical Sifu track too. All I'm saying is the drum sounds I used are that way because that was the sound I was going for.

As for rhythmically, here's a Pendulum track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLaHFF_6-Nw I'm calling your attention especially to the fact that the drums basically don't change at all, ever, but get by simply on endless bombastic energy and speed. I've taken that basic premise and added more random fills, grace hits and what have you. I hope you can see the influence in my drum sequencing, tempo etc.

[Skyline Drop]

I'm not gonna try and call myself a Pendulum fan or anything, but from what I've heard of Hold Your Colour, I can definitely see where you're coming from with the Pendulum-like comment on the drums. This is almost the exact same beat they used in like every other song by them I've heard... only with more fills/variations XP

That said, what I think gives Pendulum a bit of an edge in this regard is that they tend to have a lot more energy behind their tracks. I'm not really sure what exactly is missing from your mix, but I feel like they just come with a heavier sound from their other instruments to match their drums. I'm not saying I dislike your approach, but I feel it just needs a fuller, more aggressive edge to everything that's not a drum.

But I'm far from an expert in production, myself, so take my words with a grain of salt. I just know what I like XD

[Gario]

Ahhhh... I didn't know you were referring to a band, there - that clears it up considerably.

Listening to the song you posted and comparing it to your track, let's see if there's a way to make it work. First off, the drums they use have a whole lot more punch behind them (I mean a lot more punch), especially the bass. You're going to need to bring that out to the foreground and have it hit much harder by raising the lower mids of the bass.

I'm still going off of that Pendulum track, here, but I don't think the track you have going here will support the type of drums that they're using, there. Yes, technically their drums are horribly repetitive, but they work because the music itself is considerably faster and more driven. The repetitive drums serve a purpose, here - they retain the same beat because they want to emphasis the driving tempo & pound the beat in the listener's face (Personally, I would still say the song would've benefited from at least a little more variety in the drums, but at this point it's obviously personal taste so it's simply an opinion).

In your track, they don't quite serve that same purpose. In a song with your texture & pacing, the drums would more appropriately be accenting the changes & interesting details you've included throughout the song. Making the drums more prominent will help, but it won't rid us of the problem entirely. The song itself will need a direction change that focuses on faster pacing and centralizing the beat.

I notice in your track the drums actually succeed in filling out the role I explained (somewhere in the middle, for example, the tack slows down and the drums take it down a notch to support that), so it seems the drums want to fill the role of complimenting the music. Look at it and experiment with what the music calls for with the drums (lightening up when the music is lighter, becoming more interesting when the music is more interesting, or vice versa, to make things even more interesting).

Or not. It is ultimately your call on this, but you have two WIP commenters (looks like three, now that Sirius ninja'd in, there) claiming that the drum style you applied don't match the rest of the style of the music, so think about it a bit. If you're adamant on the drums you may need to consider rewriting the genre of the track to match the drums (as Sirius said, 'add more energy to the track'), since I suspect what we're hearing is a clash of genres, here. Hope this helps clear up what we're hearing, here.

[BlackPanther]

Hey Sifu. I gave this a listen finally. I gotta tell you, this is really sweet. I do have to agree with everyone with what their sayin about the drums not tryin to pick on you I swear lol. But I can see what they're sayin about how the drums doesn't really match the rest of the track. When I listen to it, I feel a lot of the energy is lost through lack of soundscaping. What I mean by that is while the track isn't by no means empty, there isn't enough in the soundscape to compliment the driving beat you have goin. It sounds like you're goin for somethin a bit ambient so I would dare to say add some gritty, dirty synths somewhere in there to help fill the soundscape to match the drums OR maybe add some more layers to the drums like bongos maybe or somethin else that would help to fit the mood and feel of the track. I do like the drums don't get me wrong but as Gario said, it's like a clash of genres with the melodic part of the track and the drums.

Me and you are similar in terms of how we feel about our music when people give feedback, open yet still defensive which is why I respect that about you, my Goldeneye 64 remix went through over 100 renditions before I finally got it right xD. Hope that helps Sifu, don't give up on it because this shit is sweet as hell .

[The Radical Sifu]

Alright, alright. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days and I'm going to have to change this up. The plan is: any parts of the song where I can bring myself to get rid of the primary drum track will be replaced with a different, more groove-based breakbeat. Those parts of the song where I'm prepared to fight to keep my drum track I'm going to fill out with more instruments, dirty synths or saws or electric guitars or whatever I can come up with to make them fit a bit better. Does this sound like a plan?

Thanks to everyone who's taken the time to listen and comment. And thanks to those of you who have offered some words of encouragement. I was starting to feel like this whole mix, which I've been working on for well over a month, was basically dog shit.

[BlackPanther]

Lol it is by no means dog shit. I'm in love with this and the DK64 one you're workin on =).

[WillRock]

Nice source choice and good style to do it in

Ok, when I listened to this I found that the drums were the biggest problem here.

First of all i'd say the drums are a little too hard hitting. With the drums you have i'd expect to see alot of crazy distorted synths in there.

Not to say the approach of your drums is bad but I don't think they quite mesh with the rest of the soundscape you have.

Seems to me would would be better off trying to find some drums with less punch.

However if you were to add some distortion elements to your track with the backing I think it would suit the soundscape more.

Also, if you really want to go with the pendulum drum style, turn down the snare and boost the kick. At the moment the snare is cutting through everything and is too upfront compared to the rest of the drum kit.

Mostly, the sound design is pretty impressive. Good leads, and bass However you do have the odd bland poly synth in there

The production seems kind of boxed in... I think you need a to try and mess with reverb and delay a little, improve the dynamic range a little by doing that, and also add a stereo imager.

Source is obvious, I'd need to check with the source more but i'm not sure you'd have quite enough variation for ocr.

Also, i'd remove the metal man section... It doesn't quite fit with the rest of mix... like you ran out of ideas and threw it in as an afterthought.

Overall as this stands, I think you are very close to a potential posted mix, and you certainly have the talent to pull it off, but I think this one still needs that little bit more work to get it to its best potential

Good luck man.

Btw, sorry if others have mentioned the same thing before me, but I haven't read through the thread

[The Radical Sifu]

Thanks for the feedback and encouragement Will! I love your stuff, by the way.

Alright, gimme a week or two to pour yet more time and love into this mix. I will be back, I promise.

[gokaury]

I'm not much of one to know how to write music. I was in High School and am in church choir, so I know a little about the presentation of a song. That said here is my nickel's worth of free advice: I thought that it was a great remix, however, it seemed to me that it kind of ends too abruptly. Just throwing that out there. Keep up the good work though!!! I'm loving it!

[The Radical Sifu]

http://cbnow.co.uk/theradicalsifu/Mega_Man_7_Junk_Male_2.mp3

I like this version a lot better. I've tried to address just about everything. I've added distorted, harder backing synth, swapped out the drum track during quieter bits of the song for a lower-key breakbeat, fiddled with reverb and stereo spacing, chopped the Metal Man ending off, and generally just fiddled and fine tuned a lot.

I've just noticed a mistake at 1:17 where one synth goes quiet for no reason, I'll fix that up before finalising. I hope you'll politely ignore that for the purposes of review and critique.

Thank you all so much for the comments. I like the mix even more than I did already. How do you think I'm getting on now? Anywhere close to awesome??

*nervous*

[Gario]

No metal man. That's good. The beats are considerably heavier and the soundscape is dirtier. That's good.

With the soundscape, though, be careful - now that you've got the synths sounding more 'heavy' they tend to muddy the soundscape. Too many instruments are playing in the same EQ range, so you need to clean it up and give it some space.

Glad to see you working on it .

[Bobby Emerald]

This remix has a lot of potential.

0:47-0:59, you can really work with the drums there, make it funky and stuff

2:33-2:57, you could go crazy with the drums there...there's nothing wrong there, but I personally would do something different with the drums. Either that, or I'd change the improvisation there (I'm thinking some 16th notes and stuff...sorry if I'm a hard guy to understand :B I'd explain much clearer if I knew some musical terms that fit what I'm saying...)

I'd also add another instrument throughout the song, some beeps and doots or whatever, lol.

What I'm talking about sounds like this:

The sound starts right at the beginning, and some more, somewhat different at 0:42. (At least, I think it sounds different. 0_o) Anyway, you might want to experiment with that.

[DarkSim]

Hi there, just posting to say this is AWESOME! Thought I'd check it out cos I liked your Frantic Factory WiP, and this blew me away! Seriously good stuff - definitely Pendulum influenced, but unmistakably different. Those choir pads are great, and I have no issues with the drums at all. Didn't hear the first version, so I dunno how much they've been changed up, but good job on that.

Also, totally agree with you about your defense of the drums - I was listening to Granite, and even though the track is absolutely pounding, the drums hardly change at all. That said, I'm sure the changes you made were for the better.

[Skyline Drop]

Gonna side with Gario on the EQ comment. That choir/pad thing you've got going for most of the song is especially an issue. You might want to cut that back a lot, both knocking out some of the lower frequencies and just turning it down in volume, because it's pretty much washing over the rest of the mix for the whole song.

This is definitely a big step up, though.

[The Radical Sifu]

Alrighty, here we go again! New mixdown, the EQ on the pads has been addressed and everything has been re-balanced, loads of tweaks. Hopefully you'll like this one more? I think it rocks a bit harder, not to mention cleaner.

http://cbnow.co.uk/theradicalsifu/Mega_Man_7_Junk_Male_3.mp3

Am I there yet?? *fingers crossed*

[Gario]

ALMOST!

It's a lot cleaner, it's a lot more fresh, and it's really jamming. Great.

The EQ is a bit piercing in the upper mids, though. For some reason, it's a habit that I tend to have when making music, too, but it creates distortion. Bring the upper end of the EQ down a little bit.

That strike at 2:27 is all fuzz and no music. Fix the clipping there (perhaps the EQ problem I mentioned before will fix this, as well...?).

The ending FO is too long. I'd start it no more than 4 seconds after the drop off, there, and give it another... 8 - 10 seconds, if that.

Not far to go - you should put it up for Mod Review, with the next update. Good work .

[The Radical Sifu]

Argh, so close XD

Will leave it a day or two to see if I attract any more comments before I set to work on what I seriously hope will be the final version.

[The Radical Sifu]

Any better, Gario? http://cbnow.co.uk/theradicalsifu/Mega_Man_7_Junk_Male_4.mp3