OCR02071 - Final Fantasy IV "Everclear Hangover IV"

[joe_cam]

I HIGHLY disagree that the production is bad, but that's not my point to argue. Production was done by Mustin and the song was mastered by Dale North, so if they wish to speak for themselves, they may do so.

Needless to say, we'll agree to disagree on that point.

[Theophany]

This is an incredible point that I entirely agree with - at the same time, with such high standards across the board I most definitely believe it should be held to lyrical content. If you let that slide then why shouldn't joke remixes also be allowed, and this immediately comes to mind (granted, I get the production, arrangement, etc and stuff is way subpar, I'm just making a point).

I'm not trying to make too serious an ordeal and detract from what you've suggested - that we do this for fun, ourselves, and for people who appreciate the music. That's a pretty strong point, but I still have to sit on my side of the grumpy fence on this one, as it more subtracts from the genre in the way its presented, saying: "hey we can do this too," and then doing it poorly, or as a joke (as you've suggested), is an awful way to start.

I think my argument is more that Lyrics -are- a part of arrangement, and should be a serious factor in the evaluation of any piece of music.

I didn't miss your point about lyrics being a part of an arrangement. I was making the same point; it falls under the ceative/arrangement category which is subject to the judges or djp at the time it is considered as a submission. You also seem to be assuming that djp didn't consider the lyrics as part of the arrangement when he decided to post this, which isn't the case. If you don't like these lyrics and think it detracts from what ocr is, fine; you didn't like the arrangement. It's no different than disliking metal mixes or trance for whatever reason. I don't support trying to get site-wide regulations, restrictions or new standards made to specifically address dirty or poorly written lyrics. There's already enough regulations when it comes to what can be put up on the front page when it comes to arrangements. The rest is up to the judges or djp to decide on a case-by-case basis. I agree with that MO, especially when a bold warning is put at the beginning of the writeup about the lyrics.

As for concerns about representing the genre, I don't think ocr is obligated to "represent" genres in any kind of special way. We've already proved we can make awesome shit. And more awesome shit is bound to come along, in this genre and others. Genres are not made in a day, or defined by a single mix. The point is, we can do anything, and it's partly because there are relatively few limitations. The other parts of it is that there is a huge pool of talented and generous individuals who take the time to make the music that gets posted here; singling out people who choose to use lyrics in their arrangements and forcing them to comply with standards specific to them can't really be done in the spirit of openness.

[Josh Whelchel]

I HIGHLY disagree that the production is bad, but that's not my point to argue. Production was done by Mustin and the song was mastered by Dale North, so if they wish to speak for themselves, they may do so.

Needless to say, we'll agree to disagree on that point.

I'm entirely in agreement here, production is gold.

Anywho, I've stated my opinion and that's all I really care to do - as I said, life goes on, no big deal. And I'll be honest, I do enjoy this kind of thing generally, and I'm not saying that I don't enjoy this mix for what it is - and since that's what it's really all about, I do support this post, I just wanted to make the point. At the end of the day all that's really left for me to say is keep it up guys, and I'd like to see something in this direction again, and I know there's potential for more "potent" lyrics in mixes like these, or that is to say, this genre also has potential for arrangements that talk about some deeper things and I'd love to see them.

Maybe that was obvious, though. (:

EDIT: I'd also like to go on record as saying that this is one of my favorite remixes ever, and I would have made the same point had it gotten posted.

[Brandon Strader]

I may have been harsh with what I said and for that, I'm sorry to all of those involved in the making of this track. Having said that, I think putting more emphasis on the percussion and backing music, and lowering the vocals just a tad and maybe adding some very light reverb, could have done wonders for this track.

[joe_cam]

I think everybody posting here needs to be a little less critical of the language and pay more attention to the meaning behind the lyrics.

Flik is asking for people to "please sit on [his] dick" and not enough people are doing so. That should be addressed.

<3 U all.

Seriously, love it or hate it, I'm glad you guys are at least talking about it.

[Monobrow]

EDIT: I'd also like to go on record as saying that this is one of my favorite remixes ever, and I would have made the same point had it gotten posted.

I would have liked that one to be posted, in comparison to this being posted now anyway, but is this technically a precedent?

[ZealPath]

My favorite part of any hiphop/rap mix being posted is the inevitable shitstorm it will cause in the review thread. This particular mix has definitely not disappointed in that regard . I can see how people might have at least wanted to see judge feedback, though in my opinion I'm pretty sure this mix would have hit the front page either way.

Much like how I knew I was going to love "Rhymes with Elixir" after reading an advance review before Echoes was released, I knew I would love this mix, just based on the backlash in the comments that I read before I actually listened. So like other predecessor hiphop mixes such as "Keep Out the Veldt", I enjoyed this mix, particularly the reference to shots of Jager. Had it only referred to Jagerbombs as well, I might have enjoyed it even more . It also reminds me a lot of the FFVI "OUS BBQ" track, which is basically the exact same idea but using "The Magic House" as the source.

In a lot of cases, I just don't think rap/hiphop mixes are for everyone, and that's fine. The harshness of the criticism for the most part is something I find unnecessary though, does this really need to happen every time a rap mix goes up? The only "inside joke" here is the fact that the whole mix is essentially a joke lyrically. Sure, it is probably a reference to a party they had, but I highly doubt the things described in the lyrics actually took place at said party, I'm just surprised a lot of people seem to be taking it dead seriously.

As for the production, I don't think it was anyone involved's crown jewel, a little minimalist (something that often happens in hiphop) but it certainly wasn't "poor". I actually really liked the way one source drove the intro and chorus, while the others were used for verses, very catchy.

[PurpleXVI]

I feel like weighing in here because I'm interested in the debate. i hope the day never comes when this community becomes so official that inside jokes and completely vulgar video game remixes can't be posted to the front page. i think people should never forget we're remixing video game music, for fun, for ourselves and for fans who enjoy hearing said tunes remixed. in my opinion, it's important to keep this community free and open when it comes to style and taste.

Well, there are plenty of remixes with lyrics that aren't all SUPER SERIOUS, or otherwise humorous.

But "inside jokes" and "funny" remixes should still have to pass the normal vetting process, rather than getting fast-tracked through for being someone's friends. Because hey, if I wanted to upload some "inside joke," I suspect it'd still have to get through the panel.

[PurpleXVI]

My favorite part of any hiphop/rap mix being posted is the inevitable shitstorm it will cause in the review thread. This particular mix has definitely not disappointed in that regard . I can see how people might have at least wanted to see judge feedback, though in my opinion I'm pretty sure this mix would have hit the front page either way.

No one's hammering it for being rap, people are hammering it for being bad/lazy/generic rap. Accusing the critics of just being harsh on rap is wriggling around the arguments made.

[joe_cam]

But "inside jokes" and "funny" remixes should still have to pass the normal vetting process, rather than getting fast-tracked through for being someone's friends.

I totally agree with this and I never expected a direct post or a fast track. I submitted it back in January and kept an eye on the Judges thread to see if it was in the queue or would show up soon.

I was INCREDIBLY surprised when I got the email that it was getting a direct post. I definitely appreciate that it got it, but in no way did I expect it or ask for it.

Plus I know how bad BGC hates me and wants to stab me.

[Brandon Strader]

Joe, This would have been really rockin' with some auto tune....... also some Kanye west AM I RITE

I smell Everclear Hangover V: Radio Edit?

[A-RoN]

Not my thing. I'm not sure why I'm still listening to Joe Cam after all these years.

[Brandon Strader]

I think the main problem is that we all took it really seriously.

[joe_cam]

God... How did I know A-Ron would show up here? And the last name is Cammisa, not Camissa. It's in the profile, read it and educate yourself. You've been shitting on my music for years now. At least learn my goddamn name already.

Also, why must the lyrics be about the game? Why can't we just write our own lyrics about what we want while using music from the game as our instrumentation? A lot of people are complaining that the lyrics had nothing to do with Final Fantasy. SO WHAT? Then again, if we did that we'd get called out for just trying to write shitty lyrics about a game and they sound uninspired or I'd get called out for the same thing that happened with Da Black Market in that we used filthy language in a song from a family friendly game.

At least Brandon is at least realizing that a whole bunch of you guys took shit waaaaay too seriously. Lighten up and have fun, that's what we did and that's why I am very proud of this song. Because we had FUN with it. We didn't aim to please anybody, we did this to have fun and enjoy ourselves. The fact that OCR can accept it and post it makes me feel good that what we did as a good time among friends is "good enough" to be showcased among some of the best game remixes in the world (and Da Black Market). If you're getting so uptight about this song to the point that some people want us shot or think we're destroying the legacy of this site, chill out and ask yourself why you're getting so pissy about one single song. Relax and enjoy life for a little bit. It's more FUN that way.

[Brandon Strader]

Getting shot might not be a bad idea. It worked for 50 Cent.

On a serious note, I can't pretend to know how you feel about this because I haven't had a mixpost. But I figure if I did and people had such a negative reaction to it, like even I did to this, I would probably be pretty sad. So I'm sorry for the way I responded here and I now understand where you are coming from with this mix and the general vibe behind it.

[A-RoN]

God... How did I know A-Ron would show up here? And the last name is Cammisa, not Camissa. It's in the profile, read it and educate yourself. You've been shitting on my music for years now. At least learn my goddamn name already.

If you're getting so uptight about this song to the point that some people want us shot or think we're destroying the legacy of this site, chill out and ask yourself why you're getting so pissy about one single song. Relax and enjoy life for a little bit. It's more FUN that way.

I'll make you a deal, Cammisa. I learn your name properly and leave your stuff alone, and you release a song or even send me a link personally of a song that you poured your heart into that has tangible meaning behind it with a good sense of inspiration. I'll bet if it got exposure, you'd have more hits on your hands then this song. Seriously, I'd like to help you out here. And the reason I am "pissy" is because I've actually heard with my own two physical ears how poor and not so FUN music generically has gotten for all those years I've been only occasionally so-called "shitting" on yours (it's called comparing U2 to Nickleback/Matchbox20 to Carrie Underwood/Screwball to Justin Timberlake yeah bad examples but don't blame me). Seriously, we're all on the same level, so quit complaining, drop the grudge, build a bridge, and get over yourself as I was defending REAL hip-hop itself most of the review. Great musicians will always get critisism. It's part of success, so suck it up.

[joe_cam]

Brandon, you have no need to apologize. I don't expect everybody to like this. I don't expect even a large minority to like this song. I'm glad some people do, but that's not my goal.

As for you, Parsons, you always seem to pop up when hip hop is concerned. And what the hell is up with calling me by my full last name, Parsons? Is there a reason for that, Parsons? I don't have any grudge with you, but you always seem to pop up and make an ass out of yourself and claim that nobody does rap and hip hop right except for yourself. Hell, look at your sig! You aren't shitting on me yet you're dedicating your sig to my 1/10 song.

As for a song that I've poured my heart into and has tangible meaning? That would be nearly EVERY song I've done that isn't "Crakaz" related.

Come Back, Ode to a Lost Love, Can't Let Go, Feeling Lost, Just a Friend, Still Smiling, etc etc etc.

But I'll do you one better, Parsons. Betrayal, a rap song that I poured my heart into and has tangible meaning. But gasp and eegads! There is profanity in it!

LINK REMOVED BECAUSE SOMEBODY BACKED OUT OF A CHALLENGE THEY INITIATED

[A-RoN]

Brandon, you have no need to apologize. I don't expect everybody to like this. I don't expect even a large minority to like this song. I'm glad some people do, but that's not my goal.

As for you, Parsons, you always seem to pop up when hip hop is concerned. And what the hell is up with calling me by my full last name, Parsons? Is there a reason for that, Parsons? I don't have any grudge with you, but you always seem to pop up and make an ass out of yourself and claim that nobody does rap and hip hop right except for yourself. Hell, look at your sig! You aren't shitting on me yet you're dedicating your sig to my 1/10 song.

As for a song that I've poured my heart into and has tangible meaning? That would be nearly EVERY song I've done that isn't "Crakaz" related.

Come Back, Ode to a Lost Love, Can't Let Go, Feeling Lost, Just a Friend, Still Smiling, etc etc etc.

But I'll do you one better, Parsons. Betrayal, a rap song that I poured my heart into and has tangible meaning. But gasp and eegads! There is profanity in it!

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/The%20Crakaz-Betrayal.mp3?w=170a835e

I hope that link works. I haven't had my own webspace for a while so that's my best way to get the song to you. Challenge met with a 3 year old song, Parsons.

You never cease to offend me when I only want to help lead emerging and potentially good artists in the right direction with my reviews. That seperates the Padawan from the Jedi:

1. I linked sources (some removed) of other great rap songs that are way better than mine. You obviously never read the full review.

2. If you didn't have a grudge with me and you can actually handle critisism, you wouldn't blow up like this.

3. It really would have been better to PM me next time. The above post is reported.

Deal's off. If you reply or even quote any of our discussion since my review, I will report those posts too. Like I said, I tried to be tolerant, and I did follow djpretzel's instructions as to expressing my opinions freely thinking you'd be better at your game. If I did not do so, he will deal with me personally and appropriately unlike you, and you wonder why I'm made an ass of whenever we chat.

EDIT: I also edited my review so that we won't have to continue this conversation any further than here.

[Josh Whelchel]

Also, why must the lyrics be about the game?

I for one don't think they need to be about the game at all, mine weren't. I've slept on this whole thing and everyone's made some pretty important points - we do this for fun, you don't have to love it, but here instead is OCR supporting us artists in what we do well - super serious or not, about the game or not, explicit or needlessly vulgar, call it what you will - but it's here. Time to embrace it.

[Flik]

Holy LOL I think SOMEBODY needs to drink a little Everclear and chill out

[A-RoN]

here instead is OCR supporting us artists in what we do well - super serious or not.

Which is why we need to take creativity and novelty in music seriously, guys. Giving feedback is all about helping an artist grow, even if the feedback is negative. I can sadly say though, I've only grown from hateful critique. Enough said.

Holy LOL I think SOMEBODY needs to drink a little Everclear and chill out

Believe me, dude, I tried before 2004, but the attempt to chill out left me with a whole high school who hates me and a restraining order. Essentially why I turn to so-called religion.

[Sixto]

I hate rap. HATE IT. But I like this remix. It's fun and it makes me want to party all night with some...bitches? Nice work, JOECAMNET. (BTW I don't hate rap, but I DO like Nickelback. )

[Kenogu Labz]

Something I just realized; aren't mixes like this usually relegated to OLRemix? They have been in the past, as far as I can tell. Why the exception here?

[A-RoN]

Something I just realized; aren't mixes like this usually relegated to OLRemix? They have been in the past, as far as I can tell. Why the exception here?

It's all connections and track record, believe me.

[RDX]

I think the main problem is that we all took it really seriously.

Yeah. I was stupid and came into this half-expecting Tupac, and found it being worse than Lil Wayne. You can't really blame me, when you've got guys like PrototypeRaptor and WillRock making remixes in genres that rival their commercial counterparts, but the bottomline is that every so often the music of someone's groin gets posted for the lolz and there's always bound to be some people who don't get it.

that being said the oneups are awesome and if for some odd reason you haven't listened to their other stuff, go do it now

/thread