The Extra Credits thread!! EC is amazing!

[BardicKnowledge]

First of all, the format change for telling such a personal story is definitely appropriate. That being said, the academic in me prefers the academic format and I'm definitely hoping this style is the exception rather than an emergent norm.

As for broader applications of James' story, I think that people who have similar stories to his high school days struggled not with game addiction, but with acceptance. Games are places where it's easy to be accepted -- it takes an extremely minimal amount of work to be part of an MMO society compared to thriving in a high-school or early college environment.

As another person who plays games as part of their full-time job, I can definitely also attest to the fact that the skills you develop playing video games have wide ranging real-life applications -- I would not be nearly as good of a teacher without learning a lot about how games try to teach people, for instance.

[lazygecko]

Game addiction is a complex subject as said in the first episode, and I think it'd definitely take more than 2 (3?) videos to cover it more deeply.

In the case of typical MMO addiction my view is that it is almost exclusively the social element (ie, other people) that gets people hooked. You can have the same game elements in a single player game but it won't make many people spend such an absurd amount of time with it.

I've played World of Warcraft since 2005, but I've never joined a "real" hardcore raiding guild. After looking at the general atmosphere, attitudes and expectations within those guilds it seemed like a totally unappealing way to play the game for me. And these things made me think about the actual reasons for people getting so hooked on the game.

For starters, if you want to join one of those guilds you need to send in a written application which is taken just as seriously as a job application. Within the community you'll find the same things found in real life situations. A social hierarchy, peer pressure, etc. You want to feel respected by your fellow guildies, contribute, make sacrifices for the group, and so on. At this point it becomes less about the game itself and more about living up to the expectations of your peers, something people generally tend to care about very much. This stuff is also why you can see so much drama within those guilds.

Over the years Blizzard has changed the game several times to be less time consuming and allow you to progress and build your character at a decent rate without having to play so much. But these kinds of hardcore players will simply compensate for that and find other ways to spend the same amount of time they always have. There's really not much a developer can do besides draconian measures like they have in China.

The problem in my eyes is much moreso the player-nurtured culture, rather than some evil conspiracy by the developers.

[The Damned]

Sephfire, when are you going to do video game nostalgia, and it's pros and cons (mostly cons, though)?

That would be an awesome topic. (Use pokemon as the primary example, and I will sent you a brazillion dollars)

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Quick message just to say that once again, EC leaves my heart full, challenged, and VERY very satisfied. James really knocked it out of the park with that story... and knowing the back-story of Taucer's song at the end, well, I'm holding back tears even as I type this. The depth of the hopefulness from both stories was tangible.

I want so much for this medium, and the weight of your influence is still so important. I really can't stress enough how 100% behind you guys I am. When the EC forums go up I'll be there.

Keep fighting the good fight. Looking forward to these announcements.

EDIT: I meant to add this too. Timing seems appropriate. The leader of the NDP, Canada`s official opposition, lost his battle with cancer this week. He was a good Canadian and an inspiring figure... but possibly the most profound and inspiring thing he`s done was submit this post-mortum letter to Canadians. It ends like this:

My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.

[The Author]

Gratz on the PATV deal.

[Overflow]

[sephfire]

I'm super excited.

[djpretzel]

Really excellent PAX panel which showed how HUGE the EC fanbase is & how articulate and invested they are... kudos to the three of you for putting something different out there and sticking to it.

<ulterior_motive>pimp OC ReMix more please halp!</ulterior_motive>

[sephfire]

Really excellent PAX panel which showed how HUGE the EC fanbase is & how articulate and invested they are... kudos to the three of you for putting something different out there and sticking to it.

<ulterior_motive>pimp OC ReMix more please halp!</ulterior_motive>

I can guarantee that happening.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Makes me want to make something that gets posted on OCR just for the chance that it gets used in EC.

[Gario]

Makes me want to make something that gets posted on OCR just for the chance that it gets used in EC.

QFE. And some 10char action, bitches.

[sephfire]

Woohoo! PATV!

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/episode-07-pacing

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Another solid episode on cut scenes. BIG fan of seeing an ocr url on the video's page. Really good news all around. Is EC thinking of selling shirts? Perhaps an inspired word or two on the chest on the topic of games? I'd buy.

[sephfire]

Yeah, we're hoping to get some merch going pretty soon. Things were moving at a glacial pace at the Escapist, and I'm hoping we can make that stuff happen a little quicker now.

[BardicKnowledge]

^I really want a coffee mug

In any case, since I've been focusing on Bastion in my own work lately, one of the things that it really brought back to the table for other developers to look at was how it was able to make use of complex narrative language (literally, the words) without interrupting gameplay. I'd love to see other takes on this, and present Bastion as counter to the video's point that games should not be using words.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Great ep about pro-gaming today. I've always found this to be an interesting topic. It would be a lot of fun to be part of the design team that makes an emerging pro-gamer game.

Something that comes to mind is the webcomic The 10K Commotion It was a semi-fantasy comic based around a DDR competition with a large cash prize. The comic was engaging for me, not just because it had a gamer lingo with a decent romantic sub-plot, although that was nice... it was the way it used DDR-related lingo without slowing down (ie: Breakdown heavy x2 mirror shuffle!? But that's a 9-footer) and developed spectacular player-characters as legends, (ie: improving routines on randomly chosen double songs, moving the two pads a foot apart, adding handplants and flips just to get a rise out of the crowd, dancers being known by reputation/rumors)

I`ve always maintained that rhythm-based games would potentially make for the best games for a spectator.

[liquid wind]

^I really want a coffee mug

In any case, since I've been focusing on Bastion in my own work lately, one of the things that it really brought back to the table for other developers to look at was how it was able to make use of complex narrative language (literally, the words) without interrupting gameplay. I'd love to see other takes on this, and present Bastion as counter to the video's point that games should not be using words.

has anyone really said that video games literally shouldn't be using words? I've heard no cutscenes before but damn

I think it can work well either way, I love me some movie gear solid and final fantasy as much as anyone else, but I also love more minimalist games like ICO or metroid. don't see how anyone can say "games SHOULD be [one narrow minded thing here]"

bastion is amazing! best game I've played in a really long time, and the narrator might be the best video game VA I've heard

[EC2151]

The problem, as the video points out, is that developers keep on thinking that we care more about their poorly-written stories (even the best VG stories are merely VG stories... nothing all that great- like pulp fiction or dime novels at best)... This is HUGELY evident in today's so-called "indie" games, with their terrible scripts and pretensions that often mask a weak game-engine with a boring world design (but no man, you don't get it! This game is deep!).

And of course this is the case in big-name titles as well, like Metroid Other M and Final Fantasy XIII.

[Native Jovian]

even the best VG stories are merely VG stories...

Well, this sort of thinking certainly doesn't help at all. All new media takes time to come into its own. Movies, for decades, were considered novelties without a shred of artistic value -- nowadays you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would argue that films cannot be art. I don't think we're to the point where we have real video game art yet, but I also don't think you can say that we won't get there eventually (if not necessarily soon).

On the subject of pro gaming: given the points seph brings up in the video, I think we're way closer to games-as-art than we are to games-as-sport. The biggest obstacle in my mind isn't the fact that games change rapidly. They do, of course, but you get games like Starcraft that hang around with a major fanbase for a decade, and is only really displaced by its sequel... You could probably build up a fanbase around particular genre, rather than a particular game. "RTS" would become something more like "poker" as opposed to "card games" -- where as Starcraft would be 5-card stud and Starcraft II would be Texas Hold 'Em, for example. The analogy gets a little stretched, but you see what I'm getting at. Build a following around the genre rather than the game, and you can make a jump to a new game much more easily.

Anyway, what I think is the biggest obstacle to pro gaming (given the points expressed in the video) is that you would have to have a game designed with spectating in mind. Deep gameplay with a healthy metagame is something that game developers already try to create. But spectating? As the video points out, no one in the video game industry gives any thought to spectating their games. And they'll only do so when they're convinced that there will be a return on their investment -- which is unlikely until the pro gaming scene is already established. It's a chicken-egg problem, and I don't think that there's a good solution to it.

My prediction? If pro gaming does take off in North America (which is far from guaranteed), then it will do so by accident. A game will come along that just happens to be spectator-friendly rather than that being a specific design goal, and when it gets popular with pro gaming, then others will start to copy it. I just can't see any developer deliberately trying to create the first pro gaming friendly game... and rightfully so, because the chances of it bombing horribly are much greater than the chances of it becoming the first pro game.

[zircon]

Pretty good points on pro gaming. With multi-million dollar prize pools, we have come a very long way, but there are still major problems with accessibility & spectating. I think watching SC2, HoN or LoL streaming is incredibly boring (even as a HoN/LoL player myself.) I can follow SSF4 or HDR streaming more.

[BardicKnowledge]

Pretty good points on pro gaming. With multi-million dollar prize pools, we have come a very long way, but there are still major problems with accessibility & spectating. I think watching SC2, HoN or LoL streaming is incredibly boring (even as a HoN/LoL player myself.) I can follow SSF4 or HDR streaming more.

I find the beginning of each of those games boring, but it quickly picks up as laning / getting to 11 supply ends. Is it just the beginning you have issue with or the whole game?

Edit: Similarly, level 1 fights and all-ins are super exciting early on.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Pretty good points on pro gaming. With multi-million dollar prize pools, we have come a very long way, but there are still major problems with accessibility & spectating. I think watching SC2, HoN or LoL streaming is incredibly boring (even as a HoN/LoL player myself.) I can follow SSF4 or HDR streaming more.

Interesting. I have a friend who specifically and only watches SC2 strategy videos, and isn't much of a gamer. Guess it takes all types.

[sephfire]

Finding a good commentator seems to make a big difference. I find that TotalBiscuit can make even a boring game entertaining to watch.

[zircon]

I find the beginning of each of those games boring, but it quickly picks up as laning / getting to 11 supply ends. Is it just the beginning you have issue with or the whole game?

Edit: Similarly, level 1 fights and all-ins are super exciting early on.

Well, I don't play StarCraft (I played the original ultra-casually) so I have no interest in that. Too complicated, too inaccessible. As for LoL/DotA, yes, it takes way too long to get started. Most of the game is not action and commentating is usually awful. I want to see the fat cut out, 'highlights' of good plays (and/or replays), proper video editing so it's not just the whole game being cast but overviews, specific champs/heroes, etc., higher-level strategy.

[liquid wind]

RTS games tend to be pretty difficult to watch, as enthusiastic as korean announcers can be about it...a lot of it is that they can be slow to start and have a build up phase where something like FPS or fighting games goes right into the action

it's also good that they generally have similar concepts and gameplay, like I don't play SFIV but I watch it sometimes and I can still see a lot of the zoning, reads, baits etc. another fighting game will come along and be the next big thing pretty quickly maybe but I can still watch that too even while missing a lot of the specific game knowledge, and this is even more true of FPS games.