League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[eternal Zero]

So now there's no way to itemize for ASPD and lifesteal? As if it was bad enough that on most heroes where you want a Stark's you do so little physical damage because you're using items like Wit's End or Malady you barely got any life back. Now they're just screwed even further? Also don't forget that Stark's had an armor reducing aura that's now gone from the entire item pool entirely. GEE THANKS RIOT I NEEDED ANOTHER FEW REASONS TO BUILD NOTHING BUT TANKY.

[The Author]

Mixed blessing though, the CDR was needed for pure physical characters, the selection was lacking, and at best you got like 35, if you sacrificed boots and used ghost blade. In addition, the loss of the debuff aura means the item no longer reveals your position. I think it's not perfect, but it's a good approach. Might be just me, but I won't mind the new Stark on a Tryn simply because of the cool down reduction.

However the active on the locket is bullcrap. 200 damage is basically not even one attack from a level 18 champion... I mean mages do like 100 per attack at that point, 200 is not enough.

Also, when they removed dodge from the game, they failed to remove it from bots... It's kinda annoying. I have level 15ish friends who stay away from PVP games and it's kinda odd to see Shen and Cho'Gath dodge attacks. (Mind you, I'm rocking a 2.5 AS teemo at that point, so one dodged attack doesnt change a thing... it's just sloppy)

[Bleck]

oh hey are some people on your team not tanky dpses

here have an item that gives everyone around you a shield

[The Derrit]

this has to be a joke

literally last page people were talking about how there needed to be more support-based team-beneficial aura items

AND THEN THEY MAKE ONE AND REVAMP TWO OTHERS TO BE MORE USEFUL AND EVERYONE BITCHES AS IF THERE IS NO OTHER CONCEIVABLE WAY TO BUILD ATTACK SPEED AND LIFESTEAL AT THE SAME TIME THAN TO BUILD STARKS, AN ITEM THAT IS ALREADY SITUATIONAL AT BEST. NOT TO MENTION NOW INSTEAD OF HAVING TO BUILD IT YOURSELF YOUR SUPPORT DOES IT AND YOU GET 20% ATTACK SPEED AND 12% LIFESTEAL FOR FREE

i don't even

seriously clearly the locket thing is an early game item and is balanced as such the active is a nice early/midgame kick, the aura is the important part here. plus how many fights have you been in where someone lives by 200 health or less. i had to edit this about 20 times because the more i thought about it the more upset it made me how dumb you all are

Edited January 31, 2012 by The Derrit

[prophetik music]

this has to be a joke

literally last page people were talking about how there needed to be more support-based team-beneficial aura items

AND THEN THEY MAKE ONE AND REVAMP TWO OTHERS TO BE MORE USEFUL AND EVERYONE BITCHES

i don't even

i didn't want to say anything...but...

[eternal Zero]

Two things:

1) Author I don't think you get it. Anything helping tanky DPS cannot be a blessing at this point.

2) That locket is a pretty fantastic item and here is why:

A 210 damage shield determines a fight more often than not:

That's 210 damage that isn't helping spell vamp or lifesteal.

That's 210 damage that they're regenerating or healing through which is a big deal on most if not all tanky dps due to FoN or guys like Singed/Voli/Mundo/Morde.

The times you barely get out of fights alive are going to come more often.

You'll be able to handle an extra tower shot.

The times that you barely have enough damage to burst down that one hero that's been giving you trouble all game? That'll happen less often and then they'll have the means to stay in the fight a lot longer than they should have otherwise.

You do a lot more damage in DotA in general. Pipe blocks 400 magical damage. It's super useful and seen on most every team that's up against any casters. 210 of any damage arguably has more utility because it'll work for more situations. You will see a lot of this item.

Oh and did I mention it also has its own stats and a passive aura to boost? Yeah. It's solid.

Edited January 31, 2012 by eternal Zero

[eternal Zero]

this has to be a joke

literally last page people were talking about how there needed to be more support-based team-beneficial aura items

AND THEN THEY MAKE ONE AND REVAMP TWO OTHERS TO BE MORE USEFUL AND EVERYONE BITCHES

i don't even

Okay. I'll level with you. It's a step but more of a sidestep rather than a step forward.

Give me something that gives mobile vision so I can run something else instead of the much weaker Clairvoyance.

Give me an item that will do a little damage in an AoE that shreds Armor/MR but build order and stats make it more for supports.

How about something like Medallion of Courage that lowers your armor as well as a target's armor for ganking purposes?

How about you change Lightbringer and Hextech sweeper into a single item that is more support oriented so ganking into bushes won't be so bad?

Give me something that can see invisible that isn't as immobile as a Sentry Ward or as risky as an Oracle.

How about a support item that gives the Hextech Gunblade active? So they can have a little more CC?

Or go a step further and give them an item that can actually disable the opponent?

Nope. Let's give things that progress the tanky DPS metagame to a fault.

They had so many options and this is just me ranting and not actually thinking about original, cool and interesting things to do. Riot is further proving how narrow minded they are.

[The Derrit]

Okay. I'll level with you. It's a step but more of a sidestep rather than a step forward.

Give me something that gives mobile vision so I can run something else instead of the much weaker Clairvoyance.

Give me an item that will do a little damage in an AoE that shreds Armor/MR but build order and stats make it more for supports.

How about something like Medallion of Courage that lowers your armor as well as a target's armor for ganking purposes?

How about you change Lightbringer and Hextech sweeper into a single item that is more support oriented so ganking into bushes won't be so bad?

Give me something that can see invisible that isn't as immobile as a Sentry Ward or as risky as an Oracle.

How about a support item that gives the Hextech Gunblade active? So they can have a little more CC?

Or go a step further and give them an item that can actually disable the opponent?

Nope. Let's give things that progress the tanky DPS metagame to a fault.

They had so many options and this is just me ranting and not actually thinking about original, cool and interesting things to do. Riot is further proving how narrow minded they are.

in order:

no, making an item that has a mini-clairvoyance is just making clairvoyance useless, what's the point. might as well get rid of clairvoyance completely. or take that whole idea from starcraft where the terran base had that radar ability it could use. which is the exact same thing edit: down below hextech sweeper is talked about and its a good idea to kind of fit here

so, make a malady with tiamat properties and regen? sounds like that'd be balanced and wouldn't be more suited for oh, i dunno, tanky dps characters

i guess, if you want an item that makes support (read: squishy) characters more squishy. yet again this caters to someone who already has survivability and can give up some of theirs to take out a less survivable opponent. tanky dps what

the idea of lightbringer is a good one but yet again, unless they just take its unique property and put it on an item that has regen/defense stats instead of attackspeed/damage the only people who are going to buy it are carries and damage dealers, because they do most of the attacking anyways. why would it be more useful on a support who in general, you know, supports more than they attack. edit: forgot to mention hextech sweeper. that'd be a pretty good support item as is for the supports that actually attack and use their abilities on opponents consistently. the active pretty much being dust of illumination or whatever its called i don't remember is good

having powder for invisibles would be cool. i'd be pretty ok with that

see: randuin's omen

the majority of support characters already have a major disable or two or three, or four if you're janna. exhaust is also a disable which is easy to choose. while not really viable ignite is a regen/healing disable. support characters are designed around their utility, the point being they shouldn't need more. there is no point in making an item that just gives you a two second stun unless you want some carry character who is made not to have disables, like sivir let's say, to get a free stun and essentially not have to rely on anyone else to help her get kills.

almost every single one of your suggestions would be more useful to a damage dealer or tanky dps character than they would be to a support character. as much as i think dota is the technically superior game dota items don't work here, giving people free stuns and aoe invisibility items destroys the game. while you all seem to be calling this the 'marvel' of dota games i would say it has the strictest rules in regards to what they can and cannot have characters do without affecting the game in a major way. in dota you can just be like 'yeah give that guy a 5 second stun, just as long as he can't do any other shit' and it's fine, it works. in this game a 5 second stun is a guaranteed kill. making items with powerful actives doesn't balance for utility characters, it gives gangplank yet another way to rape face while he eats oranges and triple crits you with his pistol. whenever you think of trying to make an item with significant hard cc think of a fed ad carry getting that significant hard cc and you'll realize how terrible of an idea you had.

Edited January 31, 2012 by The Derrit

[eternal Zero]

An item with a mini clairvoyance will also allow you to run both and maintain more vision more often. It can be inferior but having an option that requires in game resources to use rather than having it be inherent like a summoner spell. Like how running Exhaust on Nasus is an awesome idea. Or how running a Quicksilver Sash with Cleanse on Kassadin is just mean.

I'm talking about something akin to Randuins but is like a smaller but debuff oriented version of Taric ult. Think of it as a fourth option to Shurelya's vs Randuins vs Iron Locket. Speed up vs slow down vs buff vs debuff.

More assassins with more tools will develop a less tanky game overall. A less passive first 20 minutes will give less time for tanks to build their tank items. More aggressive metagame = less viable tanks because games end faster.

Every support still has an attack and a damaging spell. I'm talking about combining both items but making the passive benefits not so useful to a carry. Taric fires his stun. Duck into a bush to spend the stun duration hidden and safe? Not with Hexsweeper. Soraka AoE starfall. Doesn't really do damage but suddenly keeps vision for a while so you can keep tabs on the enemy team. Long as you don't make it better than the typical core items you won't see your ranged AD carries using it all too often. Also supports still have time to auto attack in fights and they should be even without an item like this.

Janna has one disable. A shield. A slow. And a push/slow. I count 1 disable and 2 forms of CC. Taric has 1 stun. Soraka has 1 silence. Sona has a single AoE stun and a situational slow. Alistar has two disables. Zilean has 1 slow. The only champion who would have this be problematic with is maybe Alistar because he's the only support with more than 1 hard disable.

Randuins is a small AoE around you. Meant for tanks. A Gunblade shot fires about 1.5x the distance and is single target. More aggressive ganking and as long as the item's numbers aren't high enough you're not going to break any of the current DPS archetype builds. Again. As long as it isn't better than an IE or Phantom Dancer Sivir probably won't want it.

You assume my item ideas won't work because you're just taking the base ideas and applying them poorly. They're motivated but Riot is showing their lack of imagination (as are you). You cannot deny this.

Also as we stated: LoL strives to become the Marvel of the DotA type games. We established it's clearly not there yet so until then DotA concepts still apply.

Edit: I may start ranting incoherently but give me some focus and just try to come at me. Let's go.

Edited January 31, 2012 by eternal Zero

[The Derrit]

An item with a mini clairvoyance will also allow you to run both and maintain more vision more often. Like how running Exhaust on Nasus is an awesome idea.

I'm talking about something akin to Randuins but is like a smaller but debuff oriented version of Taric ult. Think of it as a fourth option to Shurelya's vs Randuins vs Iron Locket. Speed up vs slow down vs buff vs debuff.

More assassins with more tools will develop a less tanky game overall. A less passive first 20 minutes will give less time for tanks to build their tank items. More aggressive metagame = less viable tanks because games end faster.

Every support still has an attack and a damaging spell. Taric fires hit stun. Duck into a bush to spend the stun duration hidden and safe. Not with Hexsweeper. Soraka AoE starfall. Doesn't really do damage but suddenly keeps vision for a while so you can keep tabs on the enemy team. Long as you don't make it better than the typical core items you won't see your ranged AD carries using it all too often.

Janna has one disable. A shield. A slow. And a push/slow. I count 1 disable and 2 forms of CC. Taric has 1 stun. Soraka has 1 silence. Sona has a single AoE stun and a situational slow. Alistar has two disables. Zilean has 1 slow. The only champion who would have this be problematic with is maybe Alistar because he's the only support with more than 1 hard disable.

Randuins is a small AoE around you. Meant for tanks. A Gunblade shot fires about 1.5x the distance and is single target. More aggressive ganking and as long as the item's numbers aren't high enough you're not going to break any of the current DPS archetype builds. Again. As long as it isn't better than an IE or Phantom Dancer Sivir probably won't want it.

You assume my item ideas won't work because you're just taking the base ideas and applying them poorly. They're motivated but Riot is showing their lack of imagination. You cannot deny this.

Also as we stated: LoL strives to become the Marvel of the DotA type games. We established it's clearly not there yet so until then DotA concepts still apply.

Edit: I may start ranting incoherently but give me some focus and just try to come at me. Let's go.

once again, from the top:

seeing as they already nerfed clairvoyance i find it highly unlikely they're going to give you a second one, nor do i see how it is a good idea to potentially have 7 clairvoyances on one team at a time

a debuff version of taric's ult sounds like taric's passive activation. which is a good ability. giving it to anyone who wants it maybe not such a hot idea.

i still don't get how making people kill faster makes for a more balanced or more enjoyable game. people die fast enough already and as long as you're not fighting singed it's not like people are impossible to take down. and i thought we already established that tanks (other than imo singed) are not the problem, but tanky dps, which is a different ballpark. shen is a wonderful tank character because he can't do it by himself but creates opportunities for his team. gankplank is a bad tank character because he can get impossible to kill and still do far too much damage at the same time. while running faster than everyone else.

your disable is my cc, if we're talking about stuns and knockups then nobody has 4, but leona still has 3. and even though everyone hates it apparently blitz has two and a half with his grab/knockup/aoe silence. and even so there are lots of 'debuff' characters that are based on those debuffs. giving zilean a free stun before he halves your movespeed for four seconds is a little much. or janna a free stun so she can run in front to ult you back into her team before whirlwinding your ass, adding up to like 4 seconds of 'oh i can't do shit.' blitz stunning someone, running back to his turret, grabbing to knockup? everyone and their mother would rage over that. point being creating new kit for characters that aren't designed for it just doesn't fit into the framework of LoL without fucking it to kingdom come and giving people more to complain about

sure. gunblade active would be fine but why give that to someone who predominantly won't be ganking? give that to your jungler or a mobile mid or something

i already said hextech sweeper seems like a pretty good idea and i don't really have a problem with it

also i assume your item ideas are bad because they are 'let's take items that other characters use and make them support items.' giving items more defensive stats and less offensive stats doesn't really create a good item. for instance: your 'shredding' item. how does that even work? in order for any shredding item to be effective you have to be hitting someone multiple times. supports in general don't autoattack all over the place. it would have to be an active by level just like any other active item for it to be worthwhile for a support character. or your medallion of courage. who does this have the most utility for? if we want to talk about comparative advantage someone who can afford to become less tanky is more likely to want an item that will lower someone else's armor at their own expense. if you give that to soraka you might as well be saying 'come kill me now, that active animation means that i die faster.' if you took it a step further and made it 'the equalizer' or something where your two respective armor amounts were averaged, now you're talking. something that a squishy support can use that will debuff an enemy without making them a free kill, in fact giving them more survivability in a situation where they need it, giving the ability to buy more time for their team. but both getting less? the advantage still goes to the one with more armor, especially considering the higher the defensive stat the less each point of it does.

Edited January 31, 2012 by The Derrit

[eternal Zero]

Again the argument of having multiple clairvoyances isn't a problem. Sure you -could- have upwards of 7 but will you? No. What this gives you is two smaller ones which will be equal to or lesser than the pre-nerf one. More malleable in terms of utility, more active, and it gives another item to buy if you want it. I see no harm here. If you wanted that much vision you can do it with the infinite amount of wards you can buy in this game.

Randuins is a lesser version of Nunu's ult without the damage. Shurelya's is a more focused version of Janna passive. And more options is more itemization. Again you're playing at the "what if it doesn't work out" mindset. If the game has enough variation and enough diversity it won't matter if something new is introduced because there will be ways to work with it as well as against it. The problem is that LoL is in a stagnant state and no way other than just introducing things will you be able to confidently say "yeah our metagame can handle it". You can talk of changing the meta and being original all you like but you just have to do it.

Tanky DPS in general are only one or the other by themselves. The other half comes from items. Reducing the time of games reduces the amount of items obtained in a single game which forces heroes down less nebulous roles or forces them to be less effective at both.

Okay so maybe a stun is a bit much maybe it isn't. Point is: give the option of some form of cc. Let the game sort itself out. You're arguing details. Most mids already have the means to get ganks as do your junglers. Why not give bottom lane more to do? Alistar might deem the item unnecessary because he already has two disables. Soraka would love it though cause she has no way of holding an opponent still.

This game has been continuously infused with derivative 4 nuke casters and 1 dash 1 shield 1 steroid 1 nuke 1 stun tanky DPS heroes. It needs a bolus of something new and fresh to mix things up. Could be any one of my suggestions. Could be any other. It just can't drive the game further and further into a 1-1-2-1 jungler NR20 tanky DPS meta.

Edit: Also I notice you're speaking as if you think that every new addition has to be groundbreaking and powerful. I'm arguing for moderation and more utility. If you keep thinking every new thing is the next big thing then, yes, nothing will ever be good enough or weak enough for you.

Edited January 31, 2012 by eternal Zero

[The Derrit]

Again the argument of having multiple clairvoyances isn't a problem. Sure you -could- have upwards of 7 but will you? No. What this gives you is two smaller ones which will be equal to or lesser than the pre-nerf one. More malleable in terms of utility, more active, and it gives another item to buy if you want it. I see no harm here. If you wanted that much vision you can do it with the infinite amount of wards you can buy in this game.

Randuins is a lesser version of Nunu's ult without the damage. Shurelya's is a more focused version of Janna passive. And more options is more itemization. Again you're playing at the "what if it doesn't work out" mindset. If the game has enough variation and enough diversity it won't matter if something new is introduced because there will be ways to work with it as well as against it. The problem is that LoL is in a stagnant state and no way other than just introducing things will you be able to confidently say "yeah our metagame can handle it". You can talk of changing the meta and being original all you like but you just have to do it.

Tanky DPS in general are only one or the other by themselves. The other half comes from items. Reducing the time of games reduces the amount of items obtained in a single game which forces heroes down less nebulous roles or forces them to be less effective at both.

Okay so maybe a stun is a bit much maybe it isn't. Point is: give the option of some form of cc. Let the game sort itself out. You're arguing details. Most mids already have the means to get ganks as do your junglers. Why not give bottom lane more to do? Alistar might deem the item unnecessary because he already has two disables. Soraka would love it though cause she has no way of holding an opponent still.

This game has been continuously infused with derivative 4 nuke casters and 1 dash 1 shield 1 steroid 1 nuke 1 stun tanky DPS heroes. It needs a bolus of something new and fresh to mix things up. Could be any one of my suggestions. Could be any other. It just can't drive the game further and further into a 1-1-2-1 jungler NR20 tanky DPS meta.

i'm about to go to bed but i just can't leave 'let the game sort itself out' as a valid statement. i am arguing details because it only takes one exploit to turn a game on its ear and destroy the viability of 10 characters and make 5 new ones god tier. the fact that off the top of my head i can think of four or five situations in which that extra cc makes a character's utility way too high is a HUGE RED FLAG that it will imbalance the game in unforeseen ways like the ones everyone here is complaining about right now. 'let's see how it goes' is lazy and uninspired design.

and its not about 'whether the metagame can handle it' or not the metagame isn't fucked up wholly by design; it's fucked up by unsociable, boorish and blatantly stupid professional players spewing garbage out of their mouths and everyone listening as if their opinion is the only one to go by. if hotshotgg were to tell the world that urgot was god tier solo top we'd have about a billion new solo top urgots by tomorrow morning. there's no way to 'design' yourself out of that mess.

i mean seriously. has anyone ever watched chaox's stream? he wins his lane and then spends the rest of the game running around and flaming his team if they don't follow him into a 1v4 of his own making. he can barely make sentences longer than 'what the fuck.' at least in professional sports people have standards of decency this is literally just an antisocial nerd sitting on his computer and acting like a grade A dick. the only difference between him and everyone else is he has 11,000 people watching him and emulating his behavior.

Edited January 31, 2012 by The Derrit

[eternal Zero]

Okay. One idea rejected. Whatever I won't argue it further. That's still another handful that are acceptable, non-insidious, and can't be any worse than items like Executioner's Calling or any better than Wriggles.

But there is a way to design yourself out of that mess. Because by the current design Urgot is a bad top. So sure people will try and people will fail. And gimmicks are bound to happen. Even without good ways of dealing with stealth a 5x stealth team sucks. 5x revive fortify isn't good professionally but is still annoying to deal with and will beat many non-competitive teams. Do people complain about that? No not really. And again: a varied and diverse set of items and heroes will be able to deal with any kind of new addition given time. DotA has patches in the span of months and sure things come in and out of vogue but never has the game been unplayable. For those that played think of the days when Riki's backstab had to be changed so many times because it was way too good and then not good enough. LoL is patched every two weeks. And even then you get hotfixes for most truly gamebreaking bugs like Trundle healing to full off of Nocturne/Singed or Viktor having infinite gold at level 6 with Twisted Fate present on either team. You also get bugs that go under the radar but were devastating like the Urgot ranged bug. Yes even that one was streamed by your aforementioned pros but didn't get the abuse that ruined the game for the large majority of players. But since none of this matters cause Riot has no balls here's to more of the same shit Riot spews out! I hope the next tanky DPS is at least mounted cause those animations on Sejuani were pretty cool.

Edited January 31, 2012 by eternal Zero

[BardicKnowledge]

Massive item list

You're not thinking creatively enough, which is something you usually tell me when I make similar lists.

Let's see a support item that lets you shoot a zero-damage projectile that gives vision and reveals in a fairly wide beam once every 60 seconds -- think Ashe's hawkshot distance and Janna's tornado hitbox (or a little wider, to cover one entire lane's width.

Split Exhaust into two Summoner Spells -- one that is a longer slow, and one that reduces overall damage output even more. Make it a choice on your team, not a requirement.

Your idea of an item that lowers armor/MR but geared for supports is ideal; something like 10% CD and mana regen.

Make an upgrade path for Kage's Lucky Pick that gives an active AOE silence.

Medallion of Courage would be slick, I approve. High risk, high reward.

Give more effects that reduce healing; create an anti-lifesteal champion.

Create heroes that are designed to push obnoxiously fast but are not effective in general combat.

Revise the jungle buffs to be more interesting -- what about bringing over white and/or and green buffs from TT, for potential starters?

Finally, give me heroes that control multiple units. I'm not saying to port Syllabear over (note: yes I am), but a character that is either very mobile or can have a widespread presence would help encourage a more aggressive early game a bunch. Even summoning temporary controllable units (not like Annie's bear, like a real controllable entity) would help.

Anything to help thwart this metagame that does not encourage interaction between people in lanes for the first 15 minutes. That is the biggest problem right now, that leaving mid to gank is not viable.

[kitty]

The meta game isn't a "design." Riot just follows what the pros do and add champions based on what they do.

[kitty]

That is the biggest problem right now, that leaving mid to gank is not viable.

Leaving mid to gank is actually really viable. The only problem is that there aren't that many mids in the meta-game that can do it. Champions need very strong pushing and a decent kit and move speed to do it. Ahri, Morgana, and Sion are some "meta" mid champions I can think of that are great at doing this.

[eternal Zero]

You're not thinking creatively enough, which is something you usually tell me when I make similar lists.

That's because I'm up at studying for a pathology quiz I have tomorrow and I'm using this as a place to interrupt the monotony. Notice the abundance of medical terms in my posts? I am, haha.

Also partially cause I'm pulling from DotA in general which makes me inherently not creative.

I think my favorite idea of yours is Kages Lucky Pick turning into an AoE silence.

[Tensei]

Even summoning temporary controllable units (not like Annie's bear, like a real controllable entity) would help.

I'm actually pretty sure that Riot is incapable of programming something like this, which is why they throw around the anti-fun/burden of knowledge buzz words whenever they're asked to bring in a champion with more inventive skills.

Invoker is the pure extraction of Burden of Knowledge. Obviously, all champions require some knowledge to be interesting, but this is a great example of going way too far. Ask Guinsoo about his thoughts on Invoker sometime - he designed him originally.

7 different spells on Nidalee and Lee Sin? Fine. 10 different spells that are cast by combining elements like you would in Magicka? BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE.

[Dexie]

7 different spells on Nidalee and Lee Sin? Fine. 10 different spells that are cast by combining elements like you would in Magicka? BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE.

Now, I've only played two games of Dota 2 and didn't have to deal with Invoker, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but from my understanding he can bust those spells out at any time, right? What's the cooldown like on his Invoke?

The difference is that Lee Sin and Nidalee's spells are more predictable. For Nidalee, you can tell what she's going to use depending on what form she's in, and for Lee Sin, his skills are bound in pairs; if he uses one, he'll use the other. As far as I can tell with Invoker, unless you can memorize all ten of his QWE combinations and watch his casts of them, you can't really know what he's going to do? Again, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have any actual experience against him.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Dexie

[Bleck]

I'm actually pretty sure that Riot is incapable of programming something like this, which is why they throw around the anti-fun/burden of knowledge buzz words whenever they're asked to bring in a champion with more inventive skills.

or maybe they just understand that having a champ whos skill is to be extra units is basically moving backwards across the line that separates dota from uh warcraft 3

if I wanted to micro-manage a million tiny units with one ability each I'd play starcraft 2 and be done with it

Edited January 31, 2012 by Bleck

[Tensei]

Now, I've only played two games of Dota 2 and didn't have to deal with Invoker, so correct me if I'm wrong here, but from my understanding he can bust those spells out at any time, right? What's the cooldown like on his Invoke?

The difference is that Lee Sin and Nidalee's spells are more predictable. For Nidalee, you can tell what she's going to use depending on what form she's in, and for Lee Sin, his skills are bound in pairs; if he uses one, he'll use the other. As far as I can tell with Invoker, unless you can memorize all ten of his QWE combinations and watch his casts of them, you can't really know what he's going to do? Again, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have any actual experience against him.

Invokers build can literally be predicted the second you get into a lane with him. If you've played Magicka it should be a lot easier to get a grasp on how he works, but he will basically always telegraph the build he is going with the swirly orbs that appear around him and correspond to the three elements he wields. He does not reach his full spellcasting potential until he maxes out at level 25.

Granted, you probably wouldn't know this without having played him a few times, but it's fairly obvious that when you have a meteor/tornado flying in your direction, you should probably get out of the way. I wouldn't say it puts more of a burden on a new player than having to play against Nidalee ("Huh, she's a cougar now? Whoah she can just jump in like that and kill me in melee?")

if I wanted to micro-manage a million tiny units with one ability each I'd play starcraft 2 and be done with it

"If I wanted to play a dotalike without lasthitting, I'd play Demigod and be done with it"

[Bleck]

I don't think archaic design elements and entire genres of videogame are all that comparable

[Tensei]

So what you're saying is that adding actual control of multiple units (instead of the half-assed alt+click LoL has right now) is far beyond the scope of the genre, but completely removing one of the most basic mechanics around which most of the game is balanced is fine?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Tensei

[The Derrit]

So what you're saying is that adding actual control of multiple units (instead of the half-assed alt+click LoL has right now) is far beyond the scope of the genre, but completely removing one of the most basic mechanics around which most of the game is balanced is fine?

seriously.

where are these ideas even coming from in this thread

[eternal Zero]

seriously.

where are these ideas even coming from in this thread

From people having differing opinions? On a forum in a conversation about potentially polarizing topics?

Bleck doesn't want LoL to be anything like DotA. All of his comments follow this logic. Whether or not you agree with him doesn't change the fact that he's consistent. Again we talked about this with the whole UMVC3 comparison. LoL isn't there yet but he'd like it to be. In that vein of thought having multiple units under a single person's control is counterproductive to leaving the RTS space of last hitting and denying.

I personally want this game to be a little closer to DotA so you see me wanting old mechanics and a more diverse hero and item pool.

Apparently you and Tensei just want to argue and misconstrue our conversation. At least bring valid counterpoints in the broad sense rather than attacking specific aspects of them in order to devalue the validity of the logic behind them as a whole.