Bleck Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Are you people forgetting that the guys who make these games have wives and families of their own? Just recently I read about a guy at Crystal Dynamics' wife gave birth to a little girl....whom he and his wife named "Lara". AFTER the supposedly "sexist" character his company makes games about for christ sakes. so because a guy named his daughter after a video game character, the character must therefore not be a sex object this is a dumb argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomba Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Sex+Audience+Appeal+????= Profit= Happy Customers If profit and happy customers justified everything, the world would be a terrible place. In a way, while mostly pandering to men (which is never going to change imo, as much as it probably should), Japan also does have a sector of games designed to pander exclusively to women, albeit a very specific grouping. They're called Otome games. Actually, thinking about it, there's a lot less objectification of women certain types of Visual Novels in general (discounting male-targeted dating sims obviously (yes there are other types of visual novels, no Katawa Shoujo should not be taken as a standard for visual novels in general)). Obviously, it doesn't justify the fact that the rest of the Japanese market is saturated with games which contain practically nothing but objectification of women, but the range of games designed without any intent to pander specifically to male gamers seems to be significantly larger than what we have coming from western developers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 That's unrealistic, but is not sexist because characters like those are male empowerment fantasy. They hold no appeal to the majority of actual female consumers. I don't agree, why should those type of men be viewed as powerful? Isn't that sexist to say it's "male empowerment fantasy"? So all men view emotionless hard asses as powerful, and some sort of fantasy? I know plenty of men, myself included, who think that that stereotype is bullshit, and who wouldn't view macho badasses or grizzly dudes with no feelings as something to look up to, or even as a fantasy. Of course I've been reading the thread, it's about sexism. Men can be treated differently for their sex as well, not just women. I'm equally pissed by the treatment of women, they are objectified far too much, and it annoys me. However, I focus on equality for both sexes, not just one. Commercials often show men drinking beer and trying to get with the hot girl. I'm not someone who drinks, and I'm not only interested in women for their looks. In video games, just look at Nathan Drake, a macho hero who always falls for the girl and goes off on crazy adventures. Why do so many men fall into that category? I often find myself offended by how my sex is shown in gaming. I'm talking about men because so many other people have already talked about the issues towards women. I am not denying the ridiculous way that women are depicted in video games. Why is it when a man brings up male stereotypes, they are suddenly sexist? I'm not saying that anyone called me sexist, but still a valid question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiiii Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 This thread reminds me of dead or alive XD Interestingly, even Dead or Alive tried to provide something for female gamers with Ein ("pretty boy with psychological baggage" which happens to be amnesia in this case). Didn't quite succeed for obvious reasons, but it was something. XD Even though Japanese games are infamous for ridiculous objectification of female characters, Japanese games tend to have greater female followings because both genders are objectified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I know plenty of men, myself included, who think that that stereotype is bullshit, and who wouldn't view macho badasses or grizzly dudes with no feelings as something to look up to, or even as a fantasy. and I know plenty of gay dudes who don't personally find Ivy from Soul Calibur to be a sexy that uh doesn't mean that she's not a sex object Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 so because a guy named his daughter after a video game character, the character must therefore not be a sex objectthis is a dumb argument No the argument is that if the character was really so offensive, his wife wouldn't have agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You know what's sexist? All the internet jokes and shit about women and "the kitchen" "sandwiches" etc. Video games favouring hot, scantily clad women is really not "degrading". Yes, actually, it is. It is sexual objectification. That is a degrading thing. Are you people forgetting that the guys who make these games have wives and families of their own? So what, having a family means you can't be sexist now? Just because they emphasize sexuality does not mean they actually believe women to be nothing more than sex objects. Irrelevant. I could flat out tell a woman to get back in the kitchen without actually believing that women belong in the kitchen. That doesn't magically make it okay to say it. Don't be pedantic. My point is that the industry has been male-dominated since before we could even get to the point of making male-fantasy characters, when it was all pure text and abstract graphics with no stories or characters whatsoever. The sexism that we see today with female characters is a symptom, not a primary cause, of women not wanting to be involved. Make sense? Okay, so let's go back to what you were saying earlier. the solution is not forum threads and telling males to be less sexist. That's idealistic. It's to create an environment where more women want to get involved in the industry DESPITE any existing sexism, since simply having more of a gender balance will help address issues across the board. 1. We probably would have more discussion in that vein if these threads didn't invaribly attract hordes of ignorant people folding their arms and saying "Well *I* don't see how any of this is sexist." 2. You can, in fact, create this environment while also making men more aware of sexism. It's not one or the other. EDIT: No the argument is that if the character was really so offensive, his wife wouldn't have agreed. In other words, "This one woman didn't find it offensive, therefore it must not be offensive. Because in order for something to be sexist, it must offend all women, everywhere, without fail." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 No the argument is that if the character was really so offensive, his wife wouldn't have agreed. Which is sexist in and of itself, because you think that when one woman doesn't consider Lara Croft an offensive character, SURELY every other woman who has ever existed must agree with that, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftninja Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I'd just like to jump in here for a moment and talk about Bayonetta. I watched this game being played at a friend's house. My friend looked at me and said "ISN'T THIS COOL? SHE'S SO BADASS." During a part where my friend didn't know where to go next, I couldn't tell whether he was trying to find a way forward or simply running around in circles watching the character's hips move in a fashion unrealistic to a woman's physical movements. This game both did not offend me and did, as a female gamer. Yeah it's nice to see a woman kick seven kinds of ass and look cool doing it but why did her hips have to be placed on ball bearings? Most games are looking to have realistic physics and graphics. Yes I realize sex sells. But it's mindboggling to see guys (or rather, the one I knew, in this case) who say 'i respect and value women' and then specifically pick up a game that devalues and disrespects them. This issue doesn't bother me so much because it's 'normal'. But it's still disappointing to see that it's becoming somewhat of a porn mini-outlet, somewhat. Men fantasize about what they'd do to Bayonetta, Sophitia and yes, some weirdos will take Princess Zelda and say strange things of her. It's there. It's strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychowolf Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yeah, why would a black person find that KKK ethnic cleansing shooter offensive? It's only fiction! Grow a thicker skin, guys! The difference is racism means general hatred of a certain race, the sexism being talked about at the moment isn't hatred at all, kinda the opposite really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 bayonetta is supposed to be a parody of overt sexualization, though The difference is racism means general hatred of a certain race, no it doesn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 I don't agree, why should those type of men be viewed as powerful? Isn't that sexist to say it's "male empowerment fantasy"? So all men view emotionless hard asses as powerful, and some sort of fantasy? I know plenty of men, myself included, who think that that stereotype is bullshit, and who wouldn't view macho badasses or grizzly dudes with no feelings as something to look up to, or even as a fantasy.Of course I've been reading the thread, it's about sexism. Men can be treated differently for their sex, not just women. I'm equally pissed by the treatment of women. I focus on equality for both sexes, not just one. Commercials often show men drinking beer and trying to get with the hot girl. I'm not someone who drinks, and I'm not only interested in women for their looks. In video games, just look at Nathan Drake, a macho hero who always falls for the girl and goes off on crazy adventures. Why do so many men fall into that category. The characters you've listed are specifically designed to appeal to a male userbase that is as wide as possible. The fact that the stereotype doesn't appeal to you personally is not really relevant to the discussion when I can list hundreds of games off the top of my head with male leads that don't conform to the burly muscular macho stereotype, yet are still portrayed as likeable and competent. This is the really the heart of the issue, because the variety between female characters is just so much narrower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicThHedgog Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If profit and happy customers justified everything, the world would be a terrible place.In a way, while mostly pandering to men (which is never going to change imo, as much as it probably should), Japan also does have a sector of games designed to pander exclusively to women, albeit a very specific grouping. They're called Otome games. Actually, thinking about it, there's a lot less objectification of women certain types of Visual Novels in general (discounting male-targeted dating sims obviously (yes there are other types of visual novels, no Katawa Shoujo should not be taken as a standard for visual novels in general)). Obviously, it doesn't justify the fact that the rest of the Japanese market is saturated with games which contain practically nothing but objectification of women, but the range of games designed without any intent to pander specifically to male gamers seems to be significantly larger than what we have coming from western developers. I ment interested target audience = potential profit you are right that happy customers != profit at times, but I will say that happy customers of a series could equal future profit for a series of release within the same world such as "final fantasy", "DOA",Sexy beach,etc... (and it could be, can I say "inversly" equally if people buy through other products because of there experience with other products) I will also say my little math formula was a (naive) theoretical idea, but I do agree on what your saying about japan. Its just that alot of content in japan beside 50+ hour visual novels like OVAs and TV shows do kind of portray women in pg-13/R perspectives. 2. Sexism and racism are 2 diffrent discussions. Thats essentually an hatred vs Idealism discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skrypnyk Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Casual games. </thread> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The difference is racism means general hatred of a certain race,the sexism being talked about at the moment isn't hatred at all, kinda the opposite really. No. Racism/sexism/any kind of "ism" isn't just hatred. It's many things. In days gone by, a lot of people in America probably didn't "hate" black people, but they really shouldn't be in the same schools as the white kids, right? I mean, I've got nothing against them, but that's just how things are, right? And, I mean, I don't hate women or anything, but they really should stick to being housewives. Nothing against them, really, I love women, but that's just their role in the world, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 bayonetta is supposed to be a parody of overt sexualization, thoughno it doesn't To the first....yeah right. On the racism thing, yes it does. Racism is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexie Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Just to settle my own curiousity...if guys like Marcus Fenix are meant to be a male empowerment fantasy, then what's a female empowerment fantasy like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonicThHedgog Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Casual games.</thread> hehe was not expecting that But I think you ment "Causal Gamers" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleck Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 To the first....yeah right. bayonetta's body proportions are clearly a joke if you think bayonetta is more sexy than terrifying, I'm fairly certain you may have never seen an actual woman before On the racism thing, yes it does. Racism is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. racism is the belief that differences in race justify discrimination you do not have to actively hate or be intolerant of say, black people, to claim that black people are less intelligent of white people, which is still racist the idea that you're trying to present here is that sexism, like racism, must actively involve the concepts of hatred and/or intolerance, and since you (and others) do not actively hate women/are intolerant of them that you are therefore not sexist (which you are) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 bayonetta's body proportions are clearly a joke Dude, I get where you're coming from, but given that Bayonetta exists against the backdrop that is "gaming in general", you can't really blame someone for not thinking it's a parody. Heavy armour, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 On the racism thing, yes it does. Racism is hatred or intolerance of another race or other races. No it's not. It's the act of treating someone differently based solely on the fact that they're a part of another race. Similarly, sexism is the act of treating someone differently based solely on the fact that they're a part of another gender. Hatred and intolerance are certainly a part of these ideas, but they certainly don't cover the entire gamut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The thing that is really annoying about threads/discussions like these is that it's a bunch of men pretending they speak for the majority of women. The second thing that is annoying is people pretending this is like violence against women. Games featuring women with huge boobs and perfectly shaped asses are just as "sexist" as games featuring extremely muscular, bald space-marines. Neither offend any sane person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerothemaster Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 RACISM: 1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2. racial prejudice or discrimination DICTIONARY MAN... AWAY! (and for future use) SEXISM: 1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; Especially: discrimination against women 2. behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex edit: also I am offended by any game with overly muscular space marines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaon Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The thing that is really annoying about threads/discussions like these is that it's a bunch of men pretending they speak for the majority of women. Actually, the thing that's really annoying about these discussions is hordes of ignorant people folding their arms and saying "Well *I* don't see how any of this is sexist." Has it occurred to you that women speak out against this stuff too? Because they do! The second thing that is annoying is people pretending this is like violence against women. "So the dude calls black people niggers, so what, it's not like he's going around murdering them or anything!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tensei Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 The thing that is really annoying about threads/discussions like these is that it's a bunch of men pretending they speak for the majority of women. Point me towards any post in this thread where someone said or implied this. The second thing that is annoying is people pretending this is like violence against women. That is a strawman argument. Nobody ever said that, what people have been saying is that the way a lot of female characters are portrayed in games could be considered offensive or sexist. The fact that you seem to equate sexism with violence says more about you than anyone in this thread. Games featuring women with huge boobs and perfectly shaped asses are just as "sexist" as games featuring extremely muscular, bald space-marines. Neither offend any sane person. Male empowerment fantasy yada yada yada, please read this thread better because I talked about this in the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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