Super Smash Bros. Brawl

[Global-Trance]

Maybe he's out of practice. He's won several tournaments in the past... :-/

I haven't talked to him since sometime in the middle of last year, I think, so I'm not really sure how he's been keeping up with the scene and whatnot.

As for me, I have never been what I would consider good, and you are undoubtedly better than I have ever been. I am pretty much a thoery fighter and sit in training mode when I actually do turn my cube on.

Yea, Neal might have just choked or something. I heard he's pretty decent anyways...

Nothing wrong with being a theory fighter in training mode... oddly that's one of the main reasons how I got as good as I am now.

[Jam Stunna]

Haha, Global Trance, that SD was pretty bad, but oh well. More vids!

Shminkledorf (Falco) vs. Jam Stunna (Jiggs)

Shminkledorf (Marth) vs. Jam Stunna (Jiggs)

[Garde]

Haha, my biggest problem is that I don't get enough variety of live competition (or any at this point), so I generally have problems facing tactics I am unfamiliar with.

When I get a combo going, though, I generally carry it to an edge and get a kill. A lot of people at small-time tournies go "WTF" and try to learn "secrets" from me.

So all I really need to learn is effective strategies to get in, and which combos I do are guaranteed against which characters, and my skill will probably improve considerably. Another thing I need to work on is using my ranged attacks to zone and control the opponent (it can be difficult against characters like Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik). I really like action in matches and I love playing fast, so I am pretty much an in-your-face melee Link (not always a smart idea, but it's fun!).

[ILLiterate]

Haha, Global Trance, that SD was pretty bad, but oh well. More vids!

Shminkledorf (Falco) vs. Jam Stunna (Jiggs)

Shminkledorf (Marth) vs. Jam Stunna (Jiggs)

First, fucking lol at the guy who was like "telling someone what to do during a match won't help them at all"

Second, you where playing as Jigg all wrong. ALL WRONG. You never even TRIED to do a wall of pain, your recovery is TERRIBLE and your L cancles...well...I didn't even see you do any. You like to spam the side b moves in battle, which should (pretty much) only be used as a recovery move. The guy made a great pick with Marth, knowing that you had a bad recovery and with his long advantage took complete controll over the match. Seriously, please look up on www.smashboards.com guides for the characters you play as and learn their best moves, combos, strats, ect.

Sorry if I come across like an ass, but you REALLY need to know and work on these things

[Jam Stunna]

My problem is one of nervousness. I don't play as well in tournaments as I can simply because of stupid mistakes, missed L-cancels and other little things that add up over the course of a match. I practice alot of tactics at home and with my partner, but they're pretty useless if I'm too nervous to use them in an actual match.

EDIT- Your absolutely right that I play a terrible Jiggs, but he's not really one of my tournament characters anyway. I counter-picked with him, and under normal circumstances I would never pick Jiggs at a tournament. But hey, sometimes you take a risk and see where it takes you, right?

[Garde]

Well, let it be a mistake you don't make again.

Rule #1 - Never choose a character you're not comfortable with just because it's a "counter match" to the opponent's character. The reason counter matches occur are from tactics or moves that can be abused against a character, but they have to be used effectively. If you cannot use the character, then it's not a counter match, and you're just digging a hole for yourself.

Rule #2 - Nervousness sucks, but there are ways to get around it. You cannot be worried about your skill when you go into a tournament. You must frame things in a positive light (get excited, not nervous). If you make a mistake, don't dwell on it, you can still come back (unless it's your last stock and you just SDed or something comparable). You also need to actually convince yourself that you're not nervous. It can be difficult at first, but if you really like SSBM, just think of how much fun you're going to have, or how much you'll learn and improve from the match. Don't think of the things that can go wrong, but if you do, think of how you can get yourself out of the bad situations.

Rule #3 - Experience builds confidence. The more you are exposed to and learn, the less things will catch you off guard, and the more you will be able to react to. This in turn helps your execution as you will not make as many mistakes (mistakes come from being surprised and being nervous, also from lack of practice).

With those in mind, kick some ass.

[ILLiterate]

Rule #4 - When you need to pee, pee. The line is going to be long at the bathroom, I know, I had to go in there and there was people talking about the game and stuff and I'm like "DUDE I NEED TO SHIT A BRICK" and they're like "lol." Water and such is a big NONO at a tourney

And the man is right about dwelling on mistakes. Don't be the "oh snap I missed it D:" guy, that kinda stuff distracts you.

Another big problem with people is, they will do a move, miss it, and will keep doing it until it hits. It's werid, but it always happens, so don't fall for it

[Garde]

So true. People get caught up in their own misexecution and will attempt it to "prove" they can do it. Use it to your advantage.

Of course, if you're going against someone ranked nationally, they're probably not going to bother doing that, and you might get 4-5 stocked. I got 4-stocked by DSF and Wes. Life goes on.

EDIT: I forgot to comment on the idiot who said "telling someone what to do doesn't help them"... Man, giving someone advice in a match can totally turn the tides, and it's one reason why you're not supposed to do it. It's basically a form of cheating. If someone doesn't know how to get around a tactic, let's say shield grabbing (for an extremely simple example), and someone is like "dude, land behind him." Or someone is stuck in their shield because someone is attacking them from behind and someone is like "just jump out and use an aerial attack," it can totally change the flow. Those are 2 of the scrubbiest examples I can think of, but they're pretty big turn points in someone's game since they're so basic.

But yeah, if someone knows how to get around any strategy and blurts it out, it can totally shift a match, provided the player is competent enough to use the newfound knowledge effectively.

[TheCatPhysician]

Man, I had a huge problem with nervousness at OC2. I can't wait until the next tournament I go to. I did so horrible and I have to make up for it. And I sort of made that mistake of picking a counter pick just because the character counters. I was playing against an IC and I lost with my main so I counterpicked with Marth, who I do know how to play, but he's not my main. I ended up pretty much just trying to wavesmash and do the same stupid tactics a lot, and I was too scared to try anything because I had no experience in the match-up. I got him to the last stock, but I know I would have been able to win by a lot if I had control of myself. I hate nervousness. I kept telling myself to stop doing what I was doing but it's like I had no control of what I was doing. Anyway I really want to go to another tournament now and do better, next time I won't let my nervousness get the better of me. And I won't pick any character that I'm not totally comfortable with. That was a stupid mistake, picking Marth. You have to know your character like the back of your hand, because your subconscious plays a huge role in your playing, and you're subconscious isn't going to be making good decisions and stuff if you don't subconsciously know all the properties of every aspect of your character.

[ILLiterate]

Preach

Tower Records is going out of business, so I got a brand new GC controller for $18, horrah

In EB today, I ran into a guy that plays serious Smash, so now I've finally got more people to practice with

[Garde]

Congratulations on finding a new Smash partner!

I know I've always been incredibly excited when I find someone new who knows how to play competently (of course I rarely play with any of them... ).

As for the deal with Neal's performance, I don't think I posted it here yet. It turns out he lost interest in SSBM after MLG Anaheim and hasn't practiced much since. The main reason he went down to UCSB was to see some friends.

[Fishy]

Hey guys, I just wanted to ask a question about wave dashing. Realistically, is there a significant reason to learn to wavedash with fox? It's apparently harder to do with him then other characters, and his dash is probably much faster. I was discussing this with someone at school and I don't think its worth doing, and that it'll distract me from my regular tactics. I've watched a fair few matches from the pros on youtube and I rarely ever see anyone do it with fox, lots with falco, but hardly ever fox.

Bearing in mind I dont use many "advanced" techniques I think i'll be doing myself more harm then good. I don't really play it enough to bother with them.

Thoughts?

[TheCatPhysician]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60570

This is a really good guide for learning advanced techniques for Fox. Fox's wavedash is one of the most useful in the whole game, because he can jump cancel his shine, which means he can shine, immediately jump cancel (a minimum of 3 frames after the shine, to be exact) and then instead of actually jumping, you airdodge at an angle into the ground before he jumps, so that he slides on the ground (you probably already know that's a wavedash). Together, this is called a waveshine and it is one of the biggest reasons Fox is the highest tiered character in the game. Waveshine can make some of the biggest combos. For characters who don't fall from getting hit by the shine, you can shuffle a down air into a shine, which is too fast for them to escape if they get hit by the dair, then waveshine immediately in the direction they went, which means you just follow right along them, and then you have the opportunity to hit them with anything you want, pretty much. You can go directly into an upsmash, or up throw to up air, both of which can start some big juggling combos that can end in death if you do it right. OR, after your waveshine, you could do another shine and the make that a waveshine. There are a lot of possibilities but I have to go fast so read that guide, and incorporate these skills one by one into your game.

[Garde]

Waveshining and other advanced techniques with Fox are definitely not recommended for the casual gamer.

For more basic uses of the WD, you can shield cancel with a WD, which is always useful against people with fairly long-ranged attacks with lag afterwards (Marth and Link come to mind).

Another generic use would be to bait attacks or to avoid attacks. WDing has considerably less lag than rolling, so you can completely avoid an attack by WDing that would lead into some irritating pressure, like a Falco shine combo where you get stuck in your shield if you shield. It's generally a good idea to avoid situations like that altogether. If you roll, you'll probably get hit or grabbed as the person chases after you, but if you WD out of the way, he'll be the one that's left open, while you can run in and grab him, or use a smash attack with reach.

You may think "but you can side-step dodge and get the same result," but that would be an incorrect assumption. If you side-step a shine combo, you can likely expect to get hit by a 2nd shine (as many Falco's will do) and still get comboed the same as if you had gotten hit by the first shine.

[Global-Trance]

Pretty much what those guys said. Waveshining makes Fox that much more dangerous. Very difficult on the hands though... so unless someone is really good at it, it's not that something to worry about. Expect to see it in a real tournament.

[Fishy]

You may think "but you can side-step dodge and get the same result," but that would be an incorrect assumption. If you side-step a shine combo, you can likely expect to get hit by a 2nd shine (as many Falco's will do) and still get comboed the same as if you had gotten hit by the first shine.

Thats all very well and good, but i only know one person who uses falco and hes doesnt even know what a short hop is, and there are no melee tournaments in the uk to my knowledge so... I think i can survive with a roll. Seriously, I played the best people i know in 4v4s today at school. After a few rounds they all had 11KOs i was on something like 50. One round i actually got all 9 Kos and didnt die. It's annoying sometimes, I want some really amazing people to play because i dont feel like i'm getting any better. I have no need for all these advanced and combo breaking techniques, cause no one ever uses the combos. The only thing they annoy me with is spamming B+ups with link.

[Garde]

That was a very specific example, most jump in pressure isn't safe to side step. Marth's SH double f-air is pretty dangerous and leads to combos, side-stepping doesn't work. Link can jump in with a SHFFLed sex kick and go to double neutral-A and then grab, something that can't be avoided by a side-step.

Most characters have some form of preventing a shield-grab on a jump attack, and if it's safe against shield grabbing not because you're behind the opponent or outside their grab reach, you can't side-step dodge it because they keep on attacking to keep you in shield stun.

The only reason I gave that very specific example was so you would know what I'm talking about, but you took my example too literally and interpretted it as being one of the few useful cases. In fact, it's useful in plenty of situations.

Any time someone uses an aerial attack that you can avoid from WDing, it's probably a good idea to do so unless you can get something really good off a shield-grab (and only if the shield grab is guaranteed). If you can attack the person through their aerial attack, then there's no point in WDing (someone a fair distance above Link is going to have a lot of trouble doing any better than exchanging blows with his up-air, for example).

[TheCatPhysician]

You may think "but you can side-step dodge and get the same result," but that would be an incorrect assumption. If you side-step a shine combo, you can likely expect to get hit by a 2nd shine (as many Falco's will do) and still get comboed the same as if you had gotten hit by the first shine.

Thats all very well and good, but i only know one person who uses falco and hes doesnt even know what a short hop is, and there are no melee tournaments in the uk to my knowledge so... I think i can survive with a roll. Seriously, I played the best people i know in 4v4s today at school. After a few rounds they all had 11KOs i was on something like 50. One round i actually got all 9 Kos and didnt die. It's annoying sometimes, I want some really amazing people to play because i dont feel like i'm getting any better. I have no need for all these advanced and combo breaking techniques, cause no one ever uses the combos. The only thing they annoy me with is spamming B+ups with link.

That must suck for you, having only worse opponents. The best thing to do probably, is just keep beating them. Find out what is different between you and them, what makes you win, and utilize it. Obviously your opponents must have some predictable patterns/habits, so make sure you punish them every time for it, and maybe every once in a while point out to them what's happening. Eventually they will be forced to drop their habits and get better. But this might make some people quit, because you have to punish their bad habits every time - some people will just get frustrated and quit.

And once they get as good as you, you will have to start learning new stuff too. And Garde, I know waveshining is way too advanced for a casual player. But he was asking if their is any reason to use wavedashing as Fox, and in the long run, there definitely is. That's why I linked to that guide, which is perfect for a new/casual Fox player, because it introduces the advanced techniques one by one, starting with the most basic ones, going up to things like waveshining. The sections in the guide even set goals for you to accomplish to make sure you learn the things.

[Global-Trance]

Anyone got any sweet tips for play against advanced Marths as Sheik? I'm trying to learn all the top characters so I can actually play against them in future tournaments.

[Garde]

TheCatPhysician, I know, I was just letting him know that waveshining isn't something he'll find useful as a beginner. It's far too difficult for someone not incredibly comfortable with almost all of Fox's advanced techniques to pull off consistently in matches.

Global-Trance, don't let them grab you.

In all seriousness, I think strategies vs. those 2 characters differ greatly depending on which character you are playing as against them.

For Link, you don't have to worry about being grabbed against Marth, but you need to worry about chain grabbing with Sheik, which can sometimes lead to guaranteed KOs.

For Falco, you don't need to worry about chain grabbing with Sheik, but you need to seriously worry about chain grabbing vs. Marth, who can tipper you around 60 for a pretty much guaranteed KO every time.

For each character, you need to find out what you need to look out for, then develop strategies around those important match turning abilities they have.

For Link, getting stuck in shdfa from Marth is a serious pain in the ass. He can repeatedly chain it without having to worry about being shield grabbed or sex kicked out of it (since Marth's jump is faster than Link's, Link cannot shield cancel without eating shdfa). Link's projectiles can be nullified by a Marth who knows what he's doing, and therefore they are quite difficult to use offensively (aside from combo extensions). Getting around Marth's sword tip is key to beating him, but depending on the playstyle of the Marth, it can be easy or difficult. I think Marth could beat Link with shdfa's and finish with a spike or f-smash after he's carried Link over to the edge of the stage. There is a theory I have that might work, but I'm unsure as I haven't tested it.

If a Marth does a shdfa and Link shields the first hit, then side-steps the second attack, I think he would be at a frame disadvantage and would either get grabbed or or shdfa'ed if the Marth decided to do it again (since f-air combos into itself nicely against Link and many other characters). If you timed it just right, I think you might be able to get a jab or two, but your throw following the double-A would probably get cancelled by Marth's grab, or he would take to the air or side-step before it would reach him. It all depends on reflexes, really, and that's why I don't like using theories like this...

So I guess in the end, I don't know how to play against a jumpy Marth. For any other Marth, Link has a good chance to get around all of his attacks, it's just that f-air that really gives Link trouble due to its speed, range, and priority.

[ILLiterate]

let's all go to the tourney...

[Garde]

I would love to, except there are a few extenuating circumstances that make it not possible for me to go.

1. I'm actually not in SLO (I'm down in SD this year).

2. I don't play competitively anymore, so it would be a terrible waste of money and time commuting all the way up to SJ with this little notice.

3. I am not in the financial situation to afford something like this right now. :/

If it were only the first 2, then you bet your ass I'd be there in a heartbeat. The short on money problem sort of prevents me from doing anything fun, though... At this point, I'm just saving up so I can visit my girlfriend for winter break.

[Global-Trance]

I was watching my vids back on page 78. I just realized how much I sucked back then compared to now.

[Noodle]

I was watching my vids back on page 78. I just realized how much I sucked back then compared to now.

How about a new video?

[ILLiterate]

Hows about a TRAINING video, for people who SUX and can't read