Final Fantasy VII is being remade for PS4

[Native Jovian]

I suppose my main issue with radically changing the battle system is why bother doing a remake if you're going to completely change how it plays?  FFVII suffers significantly from the time when it was made, as the first foray into 3D.  "FFVII, but with less painfully-shitty graphics" makes sense.  But if you're going to change it to the point where it's unrecognizable in terms of gameplay, then what's the point?  Minor tweaks are one thing, but it looks less like "minor tweaks" and more like "completely replacing it with something else entirely".

[MindWanderer]

I kind of disagree. I don't see why menus and action have to be mutually exclusive, and all action when boiled down is QTE (all good action gameplay is based on timing and reflex). Adding action to it removes you from being a spectator to having direct control over what happens in the game. Sure, it could then be less strategic... but... like I said, Final Fantasy's formula needs a lot of work if it wants to be a good strategy game, because as I said earlier, having clever boss fights isn't sufficient.

 

Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door is something I also see as objectively (tongue-in-cheek) the best turn-based RPG  (if not one of the best video games in general) ever made though (in gameplay design, narrative, visual aesthetic, variety, depth, music, etc.), so I'm biased here.

There are lots of different ways of going about it. Paper Mario TYD was a great example, brilliantly executed, and it works well for Mario, but I feel other series wouldn't do as well trying to mimic it too closely (and it would get kind of annoying if they did). Final Fantasy VIII was an awful example--the gunblade and boost mechanics were pretty silly. I wasn't impressed with Final Fantasy X-2 or XIII, either; frantic menu-selection is not "action." TBH I wasn't thrilled with the execution in Kingdom Hearts, either--I never used any items in those games, nor any spells I didn't have hotkeyed, for exactly this reason.

What they might do is something like what I've seen in Star Ocean 2, Ni no Kuni, or even Dragon Age: real-time movement, paused menus. The problem with those is that it forces all but one character to be AI-controlled. I'd personally prefer a traditional turn-based system that just has more interesting enemies throughout; FF X was pretty decent in this regard, and FF XIII actually had enemies that would fit this bill as well. But it doesn't sound like they're taking this route.

I suppose my main issue with radically changing the battle system is why bother doing a remake if you're going to completely change how it plays?  FFVII suffers significantly from the time when it was made, as the first foray into 3D.  "FFVII, but with less painfully-shitty graphics" makes sense.  But if you're going to change it to the point where it's unrecognizable in terms of gameplay, then what's the point?  Minor tweaks are one thing, but it looks less like "minor tweaks" and more like "completely replacing it with something else entirely".

Same reason they made Advent Children and all the other FFVII spinoffs: people love the world, the story, and the characters. But a pure HD remaster would still suffer from the tedious random encounters, the opaque translation, and other aspects that haven't aged quite as well.

[Garpocalypse]

I suppose my main issue with radically changing the battle system is why bother doing a remake if you're going to completely change how it plays?  FFVII suffers significantly from the time when it was made, as the first foray into 3D.  "FFVII, but with less painfully-shitty graphics" makes sense.  But if you're going to change it to the point where it's unrecognizable in terms of gameplay, then what's the point?  Minor tweaks are one thing, but it looks less like "minor tweaks" and more like "completely replacing it with something else entirely".

Agreed.  Not about just the battle system either but all of the aspects of old JRPG's that have been thrown away instead being of developed properly which is what a lot of people were probably hoping a remake of this game would change.  For at least a little while, it looked like japanese developers had the right idea in keeping the genre rooted.    Star Ocean 3&4 showed how you can get around random encounters and have a world that feels more alive by having enemies existing in the world have giving the player the option to fight or run as they explored.  Tales of Vesperia did a great job bringing the world map back and keeping it relevant for modern JRPG's.  I wish SE would get that subtle changes to existing parts of the game are far more welcome in remakes like these than completely over hauling everything to make it look like and play like Tomb Raider/Resident Evil/Gears of War/Dead Space and the like.  

 

BUT!!

 

Still buying it.  

[Mirby]

I saw people worried about no overworld or airship and I realized something.

They said they're not cutting content.

Ultima Weapon is content.

You chase down Ultima Weapon in the airship and he stops above locations on the overworld, like Fort Condor and stuff, before stopping over the Ancient Forest.

I don't think they'll change it THAT much, honestly. Which is why I'm rather confident we'll still have an overworld.

Also Nario pointed out that FF4 The After Years was episodic and it had an overworld.

And Type-0 HD had an overworld.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think we need to worry about lack of an overworld lol

[Nabeel Ansari]

What they might do is something like what I've seen in Star Ocean 2, Ni no Kuni, or even Dragon Age: real-time movement, paused menus. The problem with those is that it forces all but one character to be AI-controlled. I'd personally prefer a traditional turn-based system that just has more interesting enemies throughout; FF X was pretty decent in this regard, and FF XIII actually had enemies that would fit this bill as well. But it doesn't sound like they're taking this route.

 

Well... there's no need to speculate, just watch the video. There's combat in it.

 

 

I saw people worried about no overworld or airship and I realized something.

They said they're not cutting content.

Ultima Weapon is content.

You chase down Ultima Weapon in the airship and he stops above locations on the overworld, like Fort Condor and stuff, before stopping over the Ancient Forest.

I don't think they'll change it THAT much, honestly. Which is why I'm rather confident we'll still have an overworld.

Also Nario pointed out that FF4 The After Years was episodic and it had an overworld.

And Type-0 HD had an overworld.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think we need to worry about lack of an overworld lol

 

None of these statements logically lead to each other at all. >_>

 

I suppose my main issue with radically changing the battle system is why bother doing a remake if you're going to completely change how it plays?  FFVII suffers significantly from the time when it was made, as the first foray into 3D.  "FFVII, but with less painfully-shitty graphics" makes sense.  But if you're going to change it to the point where it's unrecognizable in terms of gameplay, then what's the point?  Minor tweaks are one thing, but it looks less like "minor tweaks" and more like "completely replacing it with something else entirely".

 

Because the way it played before is bad. So they're making it not bad (see pages of discussion on failings of its turn-based combat, random encounters). That's what you do in a remake; you correct all the mistakes.

 

Gameplay design isn't the end-all identity of content when you're talking about narrative driven games. If it has the same characters, same story, same (probly spruced for voice recording) dialog, same progression of events, same visual aesthetic, same music.. it seems kind of arbitrary to disqualify it as being "something completely different".

 

If a chosen medium or genre doesn't serve your content well, there's nothing wrong with changing it to serve your content better. The idea that the original medium/genre for some conceived experience is the best medium/genre for that experience is flat out wrong, but it's some of the arguments I'm seeing popping up here against the gameplay changes.

 

I don't care about playing the same game with better graphics in it. I want to play the same story and world with a better game in it.

[MindWanderer]

Well... there's no need to speculate, just watch the video. There's combat in it.

Still looks ambiguous to me. Are those movements on autopilot after having selected an option from a menu, or are they controlled directly via attack buttons and joystick movement? I thought X-Com: Enemy Unknown was an action game at first because it had combat like this in the trailer.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Still looks ambiguous to me. Are those movements on autopilot after having selected an option from a menu, or are they controlled directly via attack buttons and joystick movement? I thought X-Com: Enemy Unknown was an action game at first because it had combat like this in the trailer.

 

It's how Crisis Core (and FF15 I think) works. You have actions you can select from a menu but you actuate them in real-time with positioning and the like.

 

General note:

 

I don't think people understand what a remake is. A remake is not a tune-up, an HD remaster. A remake is a complete dismantling of something, observing its strengths and weaknesses, and employing improved design choices from the get go. It's not supposed  to be the same game but "looks better". It's supposed to completely re-imagine something so that it can feel better, sound better, resonate better, play better, look better, etc. Graphics is an auxiliary complaint; gameplay is more important.

[YoshiBlade]

 I just wanted to pop back in for this. The remake is now going to be episodic, with a "volume of content equal to a full game" So they're looking to cash in on the marque value of FF7 and the nostalgia value FF7 ( both of which has appreciated over the years) which they deserve. Now they will sell many copies, simply because it has FF7 on the box, and rather than try and make a full game at 59.99, they know they can make a significantly more amount doing episodic content of a strong IP. So heres my thoughts, this has Peter Jackson's "Hobbit" written all over it, In order to sell more than an hours worth of gameplay, but still have "volume of content equal to a full game" I have an unpleasant feeling, what we're going to get is exactly what we got with The Hobbit, a hearty story watered down thin and any charm that made FF7's story, characters or mythos good and allowed it to stand strong over the years, will be sucked out simply to glean as much revenue as we are willing to fork over, and for an FF7 remake I would guess it will be a lot. The story is the strongest point of FF7 and this announcement this seems to be The Black Spot for the one aspect of FF7 that has stood the test of time.....So my request is simple Square, abandon this hedonistic delusion and shift your resources to giving a retelling of a story the people want to hear, Chocobo Racing 2 for the PS4.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Are people forgetting that the original FF7 was already episodic...? It came on several discs.

Yes, they're nickel and diming by selling them separately this time but thinking that each episode will be watered down content is kind of missing the point. The original episodes weren't watered down, what supports the hypothesis that the new ones would be?

[YoshiBlade]

Are people forgetting that the original FF7 was already episodic...? It came on several discs.

Yes, they're nickel and diming by selling them separately this time but thinking that each episode will be watered down content is kind of missing the point. The original episodes weren't watered down, what supports the hypothesis that the new ones would be?

I believe the episodic nature was more due to memory limitations than choice. I'm not trying to demonize Squre-Enix for doing episodic distribution, They have tactfully handled FF7's legacy and now have an even larger market to sell to, older gamers looking for their nostalgia fix and younger looking for an newer experience, but as a consumer of video games, I see a concerted effort to stretch out the FF7 money train as long as possible.  I guess there's nothing in the Squire-Enix playbook that predicts this will happen, but rather just a concern. This has happened before when there is an IP that has demonstrable money making potential, The Hobbit, Star Wars Episode 1-3 ( Yes those are are films, but think for a moment consider that SE has an accounting department that needs to justify it's existence and this is coming from a business point of view not an artistic one). Episodic story telling by nature, has to be fulling and leave the story open to progress. Truncating the game, creating jerking starts and stops, could happen, but I feel like SE's more artistic departments puts story above all other things and they would not allow that. So I guess, I'm not offering a play by play, but just what I've seen in the past with bankable IPs. For Example The Hobbit was the First written and then afterwards JRR Tolkien decide to expand the realm of middle earth into 3 books to better serve his artistic view, it worked. However when the first films came out it was not know if they were going to be profitable, so they're was more focus on telling one book at a time, less profitable, but also less costly. Now when the studio saw what a juggernaut the series was, their eyes natural fell on The Hobbit and it's meager one book, stretching it too thin. I see that as a possibility with FF7, SE would like to expand it as much as they can, but I'm not convinced that FF7 can remain true to it's great story and have satisfying episodic content that isn't fitful story telling. 

[Brandon Strader]

They kinda lied, oh we have to make it episodic so we don't lose anything and because the game is too big! Oooooooh ok. Sure. Yeah. I mean be honest and say you want more money. 

[AngelCityOutlaw]

What would really be a kick in the balls, is if they release the entire "trilogy" (or however many episodes there will be) in one bundle about a year later.

[YoshiBlade]

What would really be a kick in the balls, is if they release the entire "trilogy" (or however many episodes there will be) in one bundle about a year later.

Well, I mean they will. They try and encourage the impulse buy of the individual games, at a slightly higher overall cost and then release the GotY editions latter on to appeal anyone who was on the fence, for slightly cheaper.

 

Here's a petition I found, but let's not be naive, unlikely to change much

 

https://www.change.org/p/square-enix-petition-to-release-final-fantasy-7-remake-under-one-release-and-not-episodic

[Wiesty]

A 100% speed run of ff7 takes about 15 hours so each of their proposed "episodes" better take 15 hours or they are just selling incomplete games. If they truly have THAT much content I'm all for episodes but if each disc has a run time of like 7 hours I'll be pissed.

[Arrow]

Are people forgetting that the original FF7 was already episodic...? It came on several discs.

Yes, they're nickel and diming by selling them separately this time but thinking that each episode will be watered down content is kind of missing the point. The original episodes weren't watered down, what supports the hypothesis that the new ones would be?

 

If the episodes don't all come out at the same time (and the term "episodic" in gaming today implies not), then it's not the same, and people can understandably have a problem with that.  I mean, yeah, FF7 was originally three discs, but you got all those discs at once and didn't have to wait any period of time to play more of the game.

[Native Jovian]

 

Because the way it played before is bad. So they're making it not bad (see pages of discussion on failings of its turn-based combat, random encounters). That's what you do in a remake; you correct all the mistakes.

 

Gameplay design isn't the end-all identity of content when you're talking about narrative driven games. If it has the same characters, same story, same (probly spruced for voice recording) dialog, same progression of events, same visual aesthetic, same music.. it seems kind of arbitrary to disqualify it as being "something completely different".

The idea that FFVII's gameplay was bad is obviously a matter of opinion, so presenting it like it's an unambiguous fact is a bit silly.  I like turn-based combat.  I like the various permutations of the Active Time Battle system that Final Fantasy used.  Saying "it's bad and now it's going to be good, what're you bitching about?" is dumb.

 

Gameplay isn't the only thing in the game, no, but it's a pretty goddamn big part of it.  If they're turning it into some sort of action RPG thing, then I don't think I'm off base in saying that that's a major change to the game -- a bigger one than I'd like.

 

I don't think people understand what a remake is. A remake is not a tune-up, an HD remaster. A remake is a complete dismantling of something, observing its strengths and weaknesses, and employing improved design choices from the get go. It's not supposed  to be the same game but "looks better". It's supposed to completely re-imagine something so that it can feel better, sound better, resonate better, play better, look better, etc. Graphics is an auxiliary complaint; gameplay is more important.

That's completely arbitrary and you know it.  It's not like there's a strict agreed-upon definition of "remake" vs "remaster" vs "HD version" vs whatever.

 

This appears to be less an update of FFVII so much as an entirely new game that happens to have FFVII's story.  If you're satisfied with that, then great, I'm happy for you.  But you can't blame people for expecting a version of FFVII when they're told that an updated version of FFVII is being released, or for being disappointed when that's not what they're getting.

[Nabeel Ansari]

This appears to be less an update of FFVII so much as an entirely new game that happens to have FFVII's story.  If you're satisfied with that, then great, I'm happy for you.  But you can't blame people for expecting a version of FFVII when they're told that an updated version of FFVII is being released, or for being disappointed when that's not what they're getting.

 

Every single piece of material I've read on the subject is void of the word "update" and uses the word "remake", which I just explained to you is something completely different. Yes, the extent to which something is a remake and not an update is arbitrary. But it's not arbitrary that a remake by definition is afforded way more change than an update is. So if people think they're being promised an "update", I really don't know what to say, because I've seen no promise of an update in any of the press coverage. All I've seen is trailers, game footage, and interviews talking about an FFVII remake (completely new assets and source code).

 

It has been stated, early on, several times that this is NOT an HD remaster. They're not pulling any fast ones and they weren't building it up to be something that it is ultimately not (which is what you're suggesting). They have been consistent with how they have talked about this game since it's been announced. Anyone who still feels like they've been lied to or shortchanged is simply fabricating issues that don't actually exist because they want something to complain about.

 

I also will always maintain that I can blame people for being mad because it's nostalgia-fueled entitlement, and I generally think entitlement is wrong and silly.

 

The idea that FFVII's gameplay was bad is obviously a matter of opinion, so presenting it like it's an unambiguous fact is a bit silly.  I like turn-based combat.  I like the various permutations of the Active Time Battle system that Final Fantasy used.  Saying "it's bad and now it's going to be good, what're you bitching about?" is dumb

 

Taking anything as unambiguous fact in a thread about game design is silly.

 

If the episodes don't all come out at the same time (and the term "episodic" in gaming today implies not), then it's not the same, and people can understandably have a problem with that.  I mean, yeah, FF7 was originally three discs, but you got all those discs at once and didn't have to wait any period of time to play more of the game.

 

I'm not saying there's no problem for being nickel and dimed for parts of the same content. I'm saying that assuming each episode is going to be watered down and stretched a la The Hobbit series is still unfounded right now. I'm also not happy that it's being split up.

[MindWanderer]

So my request is simple Square, abandon this hedonistic delusion and shift your resources to giving a retelling of a story the people want to hear, Chocobo Racing 2 for the PS4.

I'd actually really love to see that. I'm probably nearly alone, though. Other than the small number of courses, I actually prefer Chocobo Racing to any Mario Kart game.

A 100% speed run of ff7 takes about 15 hours so each of their proposed "episodes" better take 15 hours or they are just selling incomplete games. If they truly have THAT much content I'm all for episodes but if each disc has a run time of like 7 hours I'll be pissed.

I don't think speedruns are a good guideline, but yeah... deciding that buyers don't want 60 hour games and then selling them 3 20 hour games at half the price of one game seems... well, evil but probable. On the other hand, the truth is that this is pretty ambitious, and a single $60 game with no DLC probably wouldn't be profitable at all.

I just hope they don't "add content" by adding fetch or farming quests. I wouldn't be surprised to see boss hunt quests, since FFX, XII, and XIII contained them.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I'd actually really love to see that. I'm probably nearly alone, though. Other than the small number of courses, I actually prefer Chocobo Racing to any Mario Kart game.

I don't think speedruns are a good guideline, but yeah... deciding that buyers don't want 60 hour games and then selling them 3 20 hour games at half the price of one game seems... well, evil but probable. On the other hand, the truth is that this is pretty ambitious, and a single $60 game with no DLC probably wouldn't be profitable at all.

I just hope they don't "add content" by adding fetch or farming quests. I wouldn't be surprised to see boss hunt quests, since FFX, XII, and XIII contained them.

 

I'd probably agree if the $60 game in question wasn't Final Fantasy VII. I seriously think that this is the one title that could possibly dethrone Grand Theft Auto V's sales. 

 

Like, I would not be surprised if just one "episode" of this makes back way more than the entire project's budget in less than a month. I would bet money on this.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Yeah. I think people will buy it for name alone, a name that's been slow cooking its fanbase for almost two decades. I don't think we've seen any titles in a long time that had insanely large fanbases waiting to buy them.

[Brandon Strader]

Remember back in the day when a new Squaresoft game came out and we would buy it just because it said "Squaresoft" on it, and then it would be awesome?

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Remember back in the day when a new Squaresoft game came out and we would buy it just because it said "Squaresoft" on it, and then it would be awesome?

 

I don't, actually. They were Squeenix by the time I played any of their games and by my understanding, FF X & X-2 is where everyone started hating on them.  

[Native Jovian]

It has been stated, early on, several times that this is NOT an HD remaster. They're not pulling any fast ones and they weren't building it up to be something that it is ultimately not (which is what you're suggesting). They have been consistent with how they have talked about this game since it's been announced. Anyone who still feels like they've been lied to or shortchanged is simply fabricating issues that don't actually exist because they want something to complain about.

So I guess you missed the part where I pointed out that there's no strict differentiation between terms like "remake" vs "remaster" vs "HD update" or whatever, and that it's all just marketing speak that means whatever the company wants it to mean?

 

I also will always maintain that I can blame people for being mad because it's nostalgia-fueled entitlement, and I generally think entitlement is wrong and silly.

Whatever lets you feel superior, I guess.

 

Apparently wanting a game called FFVII to play like that game called FFVII I remember from back in the day is just crazy of me.  Y'know, like, how dare I have expectations that a new version of an old thing be somewhat similar to the original!

[Nabeel Ansari]

So I guess you missed the part where I pointed out that there's no strict differentiation between terms like "remake" vs "remaster" vs "HD update" or whatever, and that it's all just marketing speak that means whatever the company wants it to mean?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_remake

 

"A remake typically shares very little of the original assets and code with the original game, distinguishing it from an "enhanced port," partial remake, or remastering."

 

I see you eyeing the quote "fundamental gameplay concepts", but I maintain fundamentally it's a gameplay concept that did not serve the game well and placed a barrier on the immersion. So I see changing it is a plus, and I see that change is allowed in something called a remake and not really in something called an update or remaster (and remaster has very specific technical definition). The bottom line is I don't think they were dishonest about how they portrayed this game (they said from the very beginning combat wouldn't be the same), so I don't see people having a right to feel like they've been lied to. Anyone who feels like they're being lied to has just not been keeping up.

 

And I don't see a right to be angry at all, since beyond feeling like you were lied to, it's now purely just "I want the game to be my way and there's no point in them making it if it's not going to be my way because the game is pointless if it's not complete the same as the original just with better graphics even though there are swaths of people who hated the old way and the entire current generation doesn't have the patience for menu turn-based combat"

 

It's clearly not pointless if there are lots of people who will like it and even prefer it to the old one. Asking "what's the point?" is a loaded question. The point is to revive the branding and narrative of FFVII since it's something a lot of people want revived. Changing the combat style is a miniscule aspect if you consider that they're projecting to retain the narrative (even quoted the guy saying that the Cloud cross-dressing scene is going to be in there). Sure it changes the genre but I guarantee you that most of the reason people like FFVII is because of its characters and its music, not because it has some meaningful iteration of turn-based combat and they won't actually really care if now it's more immersive and they have more direct controls of their favorite bad-asses with cooler camera work..

 

Apparently wanting a game called FFVII to play like that game called FFVII I remember from back in the day is just crazy of me.  Y'know, like, how dare I have expectations that a new version of an old thing be somewhat similar to the original!

 

*game has same music, characters, story, atmosphere, visual aesthetic and is completely in line with all future offshoots of the branding, including Crisis Core which basically foreshadowed where FF combat was going*

 

*employs reductio sarcasm that implies it's not "somewhat similar"*

 

You're trying to imply that I'm functionally saying you're being unreasonable. There's no need to, because I explicitly think you're being unreasonable. I think being mad that Squeenix is making a game in a way that you don't want them to is unreasonable, since 1) it's not your IP, 2) you have not already bought into the game yet, and 3) they have not at all lied to you about what it's going to be. (They're not destroying something you own, you're not losing money, and they're directly telling you what they're doing long before you have the chance to buy it and be disappointed)

[OceansAndrew]

Remember back in the day when a new Squaresoft game came out and we would buy it just because it said "Squaresoft" on it, and then it would be awesome?

I do, yeah. Was super reliable until the US release of Saga Frontier. :'-(