Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Spoilers Inside!)

[DarkeSword]

This thread has spoilers for Star Wars: The Force Awakens. If you haven't seen the movie and don't want to be spoiled, do not read this thread.

 

[DarkeSword]

I saw The Force Awakens last night and I'm so incredibly excited about Star Wars being BACK.

The movie hit all the right notes for me. Really great, strong characterization, a fantastic, emotional storyline, great action sequences, and wonderful humor in the style of the classic trilogy. I cheered a lot while watching the movie. Han Solo in particular was just fantastic and exactly as snarky and funny as he was in The Empire Strikes Back. I was so sad to see his fate, but it was a great scene between him and Kylo Ren.

I'm really intrigued about Rey's storyline. I'm subscribing to what is probably the prevailing theory that she might be Luke's daughter. All of the stuff with Anakin and Luke's lightsaber and the reaction Rey has to it when she holds it leads me to believe that she's a Skywalker. I really wish I could just watch Episode VIII right now because the mystery surrounding her and Luke is killing me right now.

Finn and Poe were great. I love how they immediately became bros, and there were shades of Luke and Han's friendship between them.

Another thing I loved about this movie was that, like the original trilogy (and lacking in the prequel trilogy), there was a really ancient, lived-in quality to the galaxy again, especially on Jakku, with all the old broken war machines laying around.

This movie finally treated the Force the same way that Yoda spoke about it in The Empire Strikes Back: it wasn't a scientific phenomenon like it was in the prequels, and it wasn't just a substitute for magic like it was in a lot of old Expanded Universe material. There was a really mystical quality to it.

I have a ton of other thoughts but can't really collect them all. I'm going to go see this movie a couple of more times so that I can unpack it more.

[Bleck]

I liked this movie but I don't like that it was basically Episode IV, Again

[Nabeel Ansari]

I actually did like that it was Episode IV again. Showed that you can make a new Star Wars trilogy new without making it The Phantom Menace.

I believe the parallel was for a variety of reasons, one of which was obviously to reward and please fans of the original trilogy. I don't mind them having to take a couple of questionable steps in order to really firmly establish that they understand what Star Wars is about and how it's supposed to be treated, because the prequels set a precedent that George Lucas certainly didn't understand them.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

6 hours ago, Bleck said:

I liked this movie but I don't like that it was basically Episode IV, Again

I have to agree. Jedi already did that, and once is enough. I feel like Episode VII was fun, but it was too careful in a lot of respects, and I didn't like how they took Han's children from the Extended Universe and watered them down (to only one so far) for mass market consumption. Also, why the entire fuck is Kylo Ren, who yes is apparently still in training, but should still be competent with a blade, absolutely useless against a girl who thought the Jedi  were a bunch of myths? What happened to the republic that was supposed to have been propped up after Jedi, and why are we back to the "Rebellionistance"? Why couldn't Finn have been the actual force sensitive? I can't wait to see that Rey is Kylo's sister/cousin and have it all go back to the fucking Skywalkers. That kind of makes Episode VII seem like some weird "what if" fanfiction where the son actually went to the dark side instead.

I felt like the move overall was too pandering and not deliberate enough, and I found myself having a hard time caring towards the end. Granted, it's still a fun movie to watch and kudos to the production team, but I think now I know how Star Trek fans feel about the new vision for that series.

In short, Disney turned Star Wars into Call of Duty.

[Nabeel Ansari]

39 minutes ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

Also, why the entire fuck is Kylo Ren, who yes is apparently still in training, but should still be competent with a blade, absolutely useless against a girl who thought the Jedi  were a bunch of myths?

This is a ridiculous question every time someone asks it. The movie establishes on Jakku that she's skilled in hand to hand combat, and she carries around a fucking staff. And people are still like "HOW COME SHE KNOS HOW 2 FITE WITH LITESABER"

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

17 minutes ago, Neblix said:

This is a ridiculous question every time someone asks it. The movie establishes on Jakku that she's skilled in hand to hand combat, and she carries around a fucking staff. And people are still like "HOW COME SHE KNOS HOW 2 FITE WITH LITESABER"

But Kylo Ren is a Sith, and built up as a ridiculously powerful one at that(though caveat again, still in training apparently). It would have been fine if she were toe to toe with him, but he was clearly outmatched throughout a large portion of that fight, and that isn't consistent.

[Bleck]

Ren has presumably spent only a short time actually being trained in combat, since he presumably wasn't indoctrinated in combat techniques from birth (like Finn) or had to live a dangerous life consistently being accosted (like Rey).

Consider that in the original trilogy, Luke Skywalker (never actually trained with a lightsaber in a way that wasn't just blocking blaster fire) defeats Darth Vader (verbally rated one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the galaxy) in a duel.

[Nabeel Ansari]

29 minutes ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

But Kylo Ren is a Sith, and built up as a ridiculously powerful one at that(though caveat again, still in training apparently). It would have been fine if she were toe to toe with him, but he was clearly outmatched throughout a large portion of that fight, and that isn't consistent.

Kylo Ren is not a Sith. The Sith haven't existed since the death of Darth Sidius (Palpatine). Kylo Ren defected from Luke's new Jedi Order and with the Knights of Ren eradicated it (not by himself). Kylo Ren's supposed strength and power has never, ever been established, neither in the movie's events/dialogue nor in the backstory.

Also, not sure what you are talking about with the outmatching. He has her on the run (literally, she is running away from him) for the entire fight until she seeks the aid of the Force at the edge of the cliff, which is only the last couple minutes of said fight.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

5 hours ago, Bleck said:

Ren has presumably spent only a short time actually being trained in combat, since he presumably wasn't indoctrinated in combat techniques from birth (like Finn) or had to live a dangerous life consistently being accosted (like Rey).

Consider that in the original trilogy, Luke Skywalker (never actually trained with a lightsaber in a way that wasn't just blocking blaster fire) defeats Darth Vader (verbally rated one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the galaxy) in a duel.

Sure, but if you remember when they dueled in Empire Strikes Back, Vader was basically just toying with him through their entire duel; not until Luke (inexplicably) became a full-fledged Jedi could he go toe to toe with Vader.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

SPOILERS INCOMING

First, lemme get the good stuff out of the way.

1) Daisy Ridley was fucking brilliant. I really felt like I could see every facet of her character, every thought that ran through her head. Every flick of the eyes, every twitch of the mouth, every crack in the voice, felt completely real.
2) Han and Leia's characters were well written and well-executed.
3) John Williams, while not at his absolute best, was still John Williams.
4) There were no midichlorians. Nothing that does retroactive damage to the original trilogy.

..... and that's about all I liked about it. I could give a very long list of little things I didn't like, but here are some of the big ones:

1) Fin was dopey and annoying, a small step up from Jar Jar.
2) Adam Driver's acting seemed to take its inspiration from Keanu Reeves. The character was clearly written to be tortured by inner conflict, full of barely-contained rage, and yet none of that came through in Driver's performance.
3) There were a lot of smaller details that pulled me out of the experience. For example, the fact that, after escaping Jakku, out of all the mercenaries, New Order troops, resistance, scavengers, thieves, and smugglers in the galaxy, they just happened BY COINCIDENCE to run into Han and Chewie (had they had so much as one line, ONE MEASLY LINE explaining why Han and Chewie happened to be there, it wouldn't have bothered me, but no). Or the fact that the galaxy is apparently so small that people on the surface of a planet in one star system can -- with the naked eye -- witness the destruction of another star system. Or the fact that Han had apparently never tried Chewie's crossbow before in all the time they've been fighting together, but decided to try it randomly in the middle of a battle.
4) "What can we do that seems bigger and badder than a moon-sized weapon that can destroy a planet in a single blast?"
"I know! We'll make a PLANET-sized weapon that can destroy SEVERAL PLANETS in a single blast!"
5) Rey kept pulling new skills and abilities out of thin air. Why could she suddenly use mind tricks which, up to this point, have only been used by skilled Jedi? Why could Rey, with zero training in the use of the force, all of a sudden use it more powerfully than Kylo Ren when pulling the lightsaber to herself? Why could she, after meditating for a couple of seconds, go toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?

I might come back and add more as I think of it.

[Bleck]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey Taucer said:

Sure, but if you remember when they dueled in Empire Strikes Back, Vader was basically just toying with him through their entire duel; not until Luke (inexplicably) became a fully-fledged Jedi could he go toe to toe with Vader.

It was because he embraced the Force (though unlike Rey in her duel with Ren, he tapped into the Dark Side, which is what the Emperor wanted).

Obi-Wan explains in A New Hope that you have to let the Force guide you - the overwrought fencing of the Jedi in the prequels is meant to demonstrate how out of touch with the Force they really are. Note the following;

• how of the four Sith in the prequels, Maul fights in a very acrobatic but very direct way (nothing he does is without purpose), Tyranus and Sidious straight-up fence, and only Vader relies on exceedingly acrobatic and flashy fighting (remember that one scene in Vader's duel with Obi-Wan where they're literally just spinning lightsabers around for no reason? There's a reason for that).
• how the only time any Sith in the prequels lose a fight, it's because a Jedi gave into rage or hatred or fear - Obi-Wan overcomes Darth Maul in a rage after he kills Qui-Gon, Anakin kills Darth Maul after Palpatine insists that he do so, Sidious loses to Mace Windu because Windu fully intends to kill him, and Vader loses to Obi-Wan because of Obi-Wan's rage and despair over what Vader's done. 
• how Grievous is capable of fighting with lightsabers (exceedingly well, if you watch Clone Wars) despite having no Force powers, and Obi-Wan only manages to defeat him by shooting him to death.

Luke doesn't become a full-fledged Jedi and then fight Vader - he becomes a full Jedi, and the first true one in decades, after he decides that life is sacred and refuses to kill his Vader or the Emperor. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi ideals are corrupt - even the sequels, so far, understand this.

[Bleck]

5 minutes ago, Geoffrey Taucer said:

I could give a very long list of little things I didn't like, but here are some of the big ones:

1) Fin was dopey and annoying, a small step up from Jar Jar.
2) Adam Driver's acting seemed to take its inspiration from Keanu Reeves. The character was clearly written to be tortured by inner conflict, full of barely-contained rage, and yet none of that came through in Driver's performance.
3) There were a lot of smaller details that pulled me out of the experience. For example, the fact that, after escaping Jakku, out of all the mercenaries, New Order troops, resistance, scavengers, thieves, and smugglers in the galaxy, they just happened BY COINCIDENCE to run into Han and Chewie (had they had so much as one line, ONE MEASLY LINE explaining why Han and Chewie happened to be there, it wouldn't have bothered me, but no). Or the fact that the galaxy is apparently so small that people on the surface of a planet in one star system can -- with the naked eye -- witness the destruction of another star system. Or the fact that Han had apparently never tried Chewie's crossbow before in all the time they've been fighting together, but decided to try it randomly in the middle of a battle.
4) "What can we do that seems bigger and badder than a moon-sized weapon that can destroy a planet in a single blast?"
"I know! We'll make a PLANET-sized weapon that can destroy SEVERAL PLANETS in a single blast!"
5) Rey kept pulling new skills and abilities out of thin air. Why could she suddenly use mind tricks which, up to this point, have only been used by skilled Jedi? Why could Rey, with zero training in the use of the force, all of a sudden use it more powerfully than Kylo Ren when pulling the lightsaber to herself? Why could she, after meditating for a couple of seconds, go toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?

I might come back and add more as I think of it.

Rebuttals to the criticisms;

1) Finn is the best character in the movie.

2) It's gonna break people's brains to consider this, but Adam Driver's performance is inspired by Hayden Christensen's in the prequel. Stiff and petulant, and meaningfully so. Kylo Ren is a character who doesn't understand Darth Vader, written by people who do.

3) All of Star Wars functions on coincidence, which is not surprising for a series wherein there's a metaphysical force that connects everything in the universe. It's even called the fucking Force, dude.

4) It's easy to criticize fictional characters for building bigger and better weapons constantly, but that actually happens in Real Ass Life, so?

5) Ren is already injured when their duel begins, and it's also implied that his training (from both Luke and Snoke) is incomplete.

[The Damned]

OK, so now that I've seen it... did Han's death seem really telegraphed to anyone else?

As soon as they were in the same area in the... stupid mcguffin building thing, I know that it was going to result in the death of either Chewie or Han. I guess either Harrison Ford didn't want to be in the movies any more, or they decided to not risk him dying for real (the man is in his 70s at this point).

And I do agree that there were a lot of little references to the original trilogy, like the chess board, the training probe that Luke used on the Falcon back in New Hope, etc... but at least they didn't do the one thing I was actually worried about as I was watching: they fly off to some planet to find the Resistance, and it was a lush world with lots of water... OH GOD DAMN IT, NO, NOT NABOO! But that was quickly avoided, thank you very much.

Yeah, it's got a few too many nods and winks and outright homages to the old moves, but it wasn't bad at all. I went in neutral, and it turned out better than the last three.

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Question: Why were R2D2 and C3PO even in this movie? Like, you could completely remove them and change nothing else and nothing of value would be lost.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

5 hours ago, Geoffrey Taucer said:

Question: Why were R2D2 and C3PO even in this movie? Like, you could completely remove them and change nothing else and nothing of value would be lost.

Because the director had to remind movie goers that this was Star Wars apparently. I also felt those scenes were pretty forced. In fact, the entire "we've gotta find Luke" plot made the film a lot weaker in my opinion. The whole movie seemed pretty deserving of that purported subtitle for Spaceballs 2. Either that or The Damned's " stupid mcguffin building thing".

Episode VIII better be amazing. 

[Nabeel Ansari]

@Geoffrey Taucer You'd be correct if it was implausible that they'd still be around. But considering they were Luke's droids it makes sense that they'd be serving Leia and the resistance. Yeah, there's no reason to have them in... besides R2 being in the flashback with Luke and Luke always traveled with R2 because of the Skywalker-R2 relationship and C3PO is emotionally inseparable from R2... but there's no reason... *not* to have them. I don't really think this "no reason" talk gets anywhere. They were put in the movie to make people happy, and what's wrong with making people happy? That's what it did. Especially the scene with R2 and BB8, it was fucking adorable.

I've been to the other side of this whole critical analysis thing and it often devolves into exaggerating big problems out of small annoyances.

Probably the only legitimate complaints I've heard about the movie thus far is that the score isn't as vibrant and memorable as it was in the prequels, and it parallels A New Hope too much. Almost every attempt I've seen of people finding plotholes or inconsistencies is either them not paying attention to the movie or not understanding Star Wars, because the movie either explains everything, uses something explained in the originals, or is setting it up as a cliffhanger explanation in the next movie.

You're pretty much wrong and that Fin was not even close to Jar Jar. He had motivations, funny dialogue moments with Han Solo, and caused emotional tension with Rey. This movie had heavy themes of running away from the conflict all throughout, and Fin was the driving exemplar of it. His acting was amazing too. I slightly disagree with Bleck and I think Rey was a stronger character, but Fin was definitely very strong too. Seriously, I suggest you rewatch The Phantom Menace to see how bad of a non-character Jar Jar Binks is. It's not a valid comparison, at all.

 

@The Damned As soon as the bridge came up, I knew someone was falling off. Harrison Ford speculation aside, I think killing Han Solo was a worthy counter balance to the fanservice.

[The Damned]

2 hours ago, Neblix said:

 As soon as the bridge came up, I knew someone was falling off. Harrison Ford speculation aside, I think killing Han Solo was a worthy counter balance to the force.

You know it to be true. Search your feelings.

[OceansAndrew]

Im going to go see this tomorrow now. im pretty disappointed it didn't work out to go last night, but tomorrow will have to do. Still pretty excited to see it, sounds like it is pretty good

[Nabeel Ansari]

10 hours ago, Geoffrey Taucer said:

1) Fin was dopey and annoying, a small step up from Jar Jar.
2) Adam Driver's acting seemed to take its inspiration from Keanu Reeves. The character was clearly written to be tortured by inner conflict, full of barely-contained rage, and yet none of that came through in Driver's performance.
3) There were a lot of smaller details that pulled me out of the experience. For example, the fact that, after escaping Jakku, out of all the mercenaries, New Order troops, resistance, scavengers, thieves, and smugglers in the galaxy, they just happened BY COINCIDENCE to run into Han and Chewie (had they had so much as one line, ONE MEASLY LINE explaining why Han and Chewie happened to be there, it wouldn't have bothered me, but no). Or the fact that the galaxy is apparently so small that people on the surface of a planet in one star system can -- with the naked eye -- witness the destruction of another star system. Or the fact that Han had apparently never tried Chewie's crossbow before in all the time they've been fighting together, but decided to try it randomly in the middle of a battle.
4) "What can we do that seems bigger and badder than a moon-sized weapon that can destroy a planet in a single blast?"
"I know! We'll make a PLANET-sized weapon that can destroy SEVERAL PLANETS in a single blast!"
5) Rey kept pulling new skills and abilities out of thin air. Why could she suddenly use mind tricks which, up to this point, have only been used by skilled Jedi? Why could Rey, with zero training in the use of the force, all of a sudden use it more powerfully than Kylo Ren when pulling the lightsaber to herself? Why could she, after meditating for a couple of seconds, go toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?

1) Again, watch the Phantom Menace, and say that Fin, an actual character with desires, fears, misunderstandings, and motivations, is comparable to Jar Jar Binks, a CGI'd mess of slaptick comedy relief with no character development or contribution to the plotline, with a straight face.

2) Kylo Ren is a confused kid amounting to be a mere shadow of Darth Vader. He acts monotonous proper and regal because that's what makes him feel like he's strong (that's how Jedi talk, that's how Sith talk, etc.).

3) re: showing up in the same place; you really can't complain about this in a movie about destiny and a metaphysical omnipotent life force. re: planets; Those were all the same star system, as shown in the scene with all the planets and moons closely grouped together. re: Han trying Chewie's blaster; this is a ridiculous thing to complain about. It's funny. It's a joke. Because it's funny that in all this time, Han never tried Chewie's blaster. That's the punchline. Star Wars is supposed to be funny.

4) ...exactly. That's exactly how that thought process goes. Welcome to... weapons?

5) Notice she had prior failed attempts on a stormtrooper? It's not "sudden", it was a learning process. And pulling the lightsaber from the ice wasn't a process of being stronger than Ren... he wasn't competing with her. They were pulling in the same direction. The lightsaber was flying to him and he relaxed without realizing she was also doing it. You're again oversimplifying all of the nuance that was illustrated in this movie. And again... the force intuit aptitude is a precedent set by Luke Skywalker, who shot proton torpedoes at a 90 degree angle into a maintenance shaft.

 

The Force is not magic, nor is it science. You don't learn new spells as you get stronger, and stronger people aren't privvied to more spells than weaker people. The Force is something you are in touch with. It's a spiritual/religious thing (hence why Jedi is a religion, one modeled off of Buddhism, and it is not wizardry). Yes, she meditated and then could wield the Force better. That's how the Force works.

[Ivan Hakštok]

The biggest plothole is how the fuck did Luke's lightsaber get into that box?

I really liked the movie. Finn was great, Kylo Ren was awesome and he has the potential to be a better villain than Darth Vader. Rey was overpowered but I knew it was going to happen ever since the flashback scene. And I kinda wanted Finn to be a Jedi.

Han's death scene is an example of how to properly do a death scene. It's probably the best scene in any Star Wars movie.

Couldn't care less about the fact that it repeats storyline elements from the original trilogy. Especially since it improved upon it.

[Nabeel Ansari]

5 minutes ago, Ivan Hakštok said:

The biggest plothole is how the fuck did Luke's lightsaber get into that box?

Maz (the lady running the watering hole) kept it a secret as to how she got it. A bit of a copout, yeah, but I'm sure they'll go into it. I think there's a stark difference between plotholes and mysteries. It's been many decades, it's not implausible to say that something could've happened to the lightsaber other than it falling to the bottom of cloud city and staying there. What if Maz was there on that day? We don't know, and that should be exciting, not disappointing.

[The Damned]

You have to have read the 5-part comic that explains how the lightsabre ended up landing in a cargo hauler that left Cloud City before the Falcon escaped. The cargo hauler landed on another planet, where it was picked up by some Jawa traders that didn't know what it was, were robbed by a bounty hunter looking for Han Solo, and then traded to one of Jabba the Hutt's slave girls on Tatooine (what for, use your imagination). From there, it was passed around over the years until it ended up in Maz's place as part of a payment for a job she was running for someone else.

Her slight Force sensitivity told her it was important, but she didn't know what to do with it until the movie.

Look up the series called Star Wars: Lost and Found. OK, I made all that up. But you looked it up, didn't you?

[DjjD]

Spoiler Alert. James Bond is a stormtrooper. lol

 

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

3 hours ago, Neblix said:

...We don't know, and that should be exciting, not disappointing.

You're absolutely right. It SHOULD be exciting, but it's absolutely disappointing.