Martial Arts

[MasterSenshi]

Martial arts, are meant for defense or attack. Any war art could be considered 'martial', but since we don't speak Latin the connection isn't noticed.

Even if you don't learn an 'aggresive' art, the point should be to defend yourself and stop or evade your attacker.

It's too late to argue philosophy... but some may be useful, while some isn't really integral to the fighting style.

[Fenrir]

Martial arts, are meant for defense or attack. Any war art could be considered 'martial', but since we don't speak Latin the connection isn't noticed.

Even if you don't learn an 'aggresive' art, the point should be to defend yourself and stop or evade your attacker.

It's too late to argue philosophy... but some may be useful, while some isn't really integral to the fighting style.

Of course it isn't integral. You can punch without any philosophical reasoning. I'd say that the philosophy is there to enrich the art, and facilitate its integration into daily activities which brings the practitioner closer to a more complete mastery of martial art X.

[herograw]

Until I-N-J-I-N came along I didn't know opinions could be incorrect.

[Flare4War]

Until I-N-J-I-N came along I didn't know opinions could be incorrect.

You think she's aggressive in this harmless thread; enter off topic, or worse PPR.

She'll put the fear in you.

She's been relatively docile, actually.

[Flare4War]

Flare4War; Jeet Kune Do is awesome, for sure, but remember, Bruce Lee himself (who is one of my biggest heroes,) rejected his own style for the "way of no way." More to the point, in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, he wrote that you should always use anything that's useful, be it from a style or not. Granted, he took a vast amount of useful techniques from other arts, but there's always more to learn, and plenty of places and ways to learn it.

I've watched a lot of different studies on Bruce Lee, as well as read several short biographies and I never heard this. So that's actually very interesting to me, and doesn't surprise me at all.

It's one of the intriguing things about Bruce Lee, he wasn't ashamed to fight dirty. Seeing him bite someone to get the advantage in a fight wouldn't surprise anyone who knew him, or has researched his philosophies.

[I-n-j-i-n]

Call the philosophy unnecessary if you want but, call me crazy, there may just be a reason the masters included and practiced it.

It's a tradition, a business and foremost, it's an art. The precursors literally practiced it to hurt or even kill people. The romantic ideal came way later. As in the modern eras. Even a lot of martial arts that pop up nowadays, it's a matter of nationalism/philosophy like Aikido (that art wasn't even created until five decades ago), Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (made entirely from a sporting aspect, not out of some 'do no harm' philosophy) or something like modern Vale Tudo which was basically created to make taking down enemies that much more efficient (precursor to modern MMA with the grappling + striking).

The idea of a 'sensei' or a 'master' sitting and preaching some borderline religious line about 'not hurting others' has no real impact on the sport or the physicality of it. Also, that 'martial arts ideal' about not actively seeking a fight or abusing it is just common sense. That ideal doesn't lend itself specifically to martial arts. That's the kind of high and mighty attitude I dislike about some martial arts practices. If you have a tradition and like it, that's fine. But don't tell me that is essential to the actual science of it.

I don't really give a shit if masters did this or that. Practitioners ultimately matter the most. I really don't buy any of the romanticism involved personally. No offense intended, but that is how I feel. Especially not nowadays when most 'masters' are just coaches and assistants to the actual martial artists out there. Even in Karate/TaeKwonDo nowadays, masters has taken a back seat to the role of being coaches. As in like gym coaches. Does the end result change drastically? Of course not.

[BlueMage]

Including ninjitsu. Despite what people may think, once you see what some of the people who claim to practice it can do, you'll conclude it is a very real way of fighting.

It is real, it is effective and at the higher levels, it is scary. I trained in it for around six months when I was young, and I learnt more about practical self-defense in those six months than I did in the two years of karate prior.

And I was doing ninjitsu long before I even knew what anime was.

That said (and I'm wondering if this is the same thread ... looks like it) I'm still doing Shorinji Kempo. There are some pretty cool vids of it on youtube (and when watching them, I was amazed at just how awesome some of the exchanges look) and I would highly recommend it.

[Fenrir]

It is real, it is effective and at the higher levels, it is scary. I trained in it for around six months when I was young, and I learnt more about practical self-defense in those six months than I did in the two years of karate prior.

And I was doing ninjitsu long before I even knew what anime was.

That said (and I'm wondering if this is the same thread ... looks like it) I'm still doing Shorinji Kempo. There are some pretty cool vids of it on youtube (and when watching them, I was amazed at just how awesome some of the exchanges look) and I would highly recommend it.

Hell Fuckin' yeah!

[ambient]

Injin, great points all around. This is exactly why it is pointless to argue about effectiveness of traditional martial arts in here - people who practice them are so indoctrinated by their senseis that they will defend it as if it were their religion. And I guess in a way it is, they find empowerment and comfort there.

I am not going to waste my time here anymore. People with sober minds already know that MMA is called the ultimate form of fighting for a reason. And I am not going to argue over the internet with deluded disciples of an antiquated chimera of philosophy, tradition, nationalism, and hand-to-hand combat.

[Flare4War]

It is real, it is effective and at the higher levels, it is scary. I trained in it for around six months when I was young, and I learnt more about practical self-defense in those six months than I did in the two years of karate prior.

And I was doing ninjitsu long before I even knew what anime was.

That said (and I'm wondering if this is the same thread ... looks like it) I'm still doing Shorinji Kempo. There are some pretty cool vids of it on youtube (and when watching them, I was amazed at just how awesome some of the exchanges look) and I would highly recommend it.

Yeah, until I looked into it a little I was under the misconception that it wasn't a real fighting style, more a mythical/magical way of fighting. Many people do think that.

If I remember right, National Geographic gave it the highest score and claimed it to be the most deadly art because of the Ninja's striking accuracy and balance. He was performing balancing exercises etc. that none of the others could perform. Kung Fu was the runner up for balance, and even it fell far behind.

[BlueMage]

Ninjitsu really is centred around striking rapidly to vital parts of the body - the throat, the groin, the eyes and particularly along meridian lines. Now, I know that last bit sounds a bit mystical, but consider that the vital points along meridian lines have generally now been mapped to nerve clusters that, when triggered, can have adverse effects upon organs or muscle control. It's the understanding of the human body that gives most ninjitsu practitioners that fearsome skill.

Incidentally, pretty much all serious arts are about balance, and how you can fuck someone else's up.

Also, Flare4War, which Kung Fu were they talking about? Northern or Southern?

[Flare4War]

Ninjitsu really is centred around striking rapidly to vital parts of the body - the throat, the groin, the eyes and particularly along meridian lines. Now, I know that last bit sounds a bit mystical, but consider that the vital points along meridian lines have generally now been mapped to nerve clusters that, when triggered, can have adverse effects upon organs or muscle control. It's the understanding of the human body that gives most ninjitsu practitioners that fearsome skill.

Incidentally, pretty much all serious arts are about balance, and how you can fuck someone else's up.

Also, Flare4War, which Kung Fu were they talking about? Northern or Southern?

True, it did mention more than just the accuracy. The Ninja that was doing the tests was delivering hits to places on the chest with enough force that the surgeons said it would have been a one hit kill.

I can't remember which style the Kung Fu was.

The documentary is called 'Fight Science'. You especially would probably find it very interesting since you have a background with ninjitsu.

[RealFolkBlues]

True, it did mention more than just the accuracy. The Ninja that was doing the tests was delivering hits to places on the chest with enough force that the surgeons said it would have been a one hit kill.

Ninjitsu doesn't play, simply because ninjas could not in fact play around. They were facing samurai, possibly the most dangerous warriors in mankind's history (Spartans, the Hwarang, and certain other fighters trained from birth spring to mind,) and had no or at least very little margin for error. Therefore, the vast majority of their techniques kill or disable, or at the very least allow the ninja to easily escape within a move or two.

I can't remember which style the Kung Fu was.

Saying Kung Fu is something is like saying Karate is something. There is so much variety within the single larger framework. Longfist is as different from Mantis as Isshinryu is from Shorinryu, or Muay Thai from Savate. There are similarities (like there are between all styles at some point,) but there's plenty of differences. I've known some Kung Fu practitioners who were fairly badass, and some who could mainly do just flowery, beautiful techniques with little application.

[Fenrir]

I'm leaving 'cause I'm right and if you disagree with me, you're stupid.

Oh. Okay. What a compelling argument.

[Flare4War]

Saying Kung Fu is something is like saying Karate is something. There is so much variety within the single larger framework. Longfist is as different from Mantis as Isshinryu is from Shorinryu, or Muay Thai from Savate. There are similarities (like there are between all styles at some point,) but there's plenty of differences. I've known some Kung Fu practitioners who were fairly badass, and some who could mainly do just flowery, beautiful techniques with little application.

K, that all makes sense.

Why are you quoting me though? That doesn't have a fucking thing to do with what I said. lol

[Malcos]

I dunno what martial art I do really...I've done some Kung-fu, Mui-Thai and a little bit of Aikido. I got farthest in Mui-Thai, and I got a real sense of fighting from full speed, full contact sparring. We're told to use full speed, but only about 25% full strength.

I remember once I got tired after about an hour of sparring and I dropped my guard a bit and got hit with a jab-cross combo, I almost got knocked out and he only lightly tapped me!

Anyway I haven't done any martial arts for almost 3 years now so I'm a bit rusty. In real life I'd kick them in the nuts and go for the neck, choke them out, use arm locks if they got weapons (after nuts kicking), elbow to the head, throw coins at them, bite, scratch, shout etc.

[Oddllama]

I've been in ninja training for over 3 years now. I'm about to get my green belt once my sensai re-opens the dojo after Christmas (yes, ninjas celebrate Christmas, too ). Then I should be able to feel pretty confident about walking home on dark nights, and also probably kickflip off walls. Chicks dig kickflips.

[Flare4War]

I dunno what martial art I do really...I've done some Kung-fu, Mui-Thai and a little bit of Aikido. I got farthest in Mui-Thai, and I got a real sense of fighting from full speed, full contact sparring. We're told to use full speed, but only about 25% full strength.

I remember once I got tired after about an hour of sparring and I dropped my guard a bit and got hit with a jab-cross combo, I almost got knocked out and he only lightly tapped me!

Anyway I haven't done any martial arts for almost 3 years now so I'm a bit rusty. In real life I'd kick them in the nuts and go for the neck, choke them out, use arm locks if they got weapons (after nuts kicking), elbow to the head, throw coins at them, bite, scratch, shout etc.

As long as you're using your wits. That's all that matters.

[RealFolkBlues]

Why are you quoting me though? That doesn't have a fucking thing to do with what I said. lol

You had said that Kung Fu lost pretty hard in that National Geographic special, and then BlueMage asked what style of Kung Fu. Basically, I was bringing up old shit. My apologies for the confusion, sir.

May I say it's awesome to see a few serious ninjitsu practitioners in here. God I want to learn that stuff but bad. What do you guys thing of Stephen Hayes?

[Razumen]

I've been thinking about entering a martial arts program for a bit now, mainly to help improve my self confidence and fitness - I'm not into big competitions or stuff like that. In fact there is a Ninjutsu dojo not far away that's accepting new members.

One thing I'm wary of though is going to a place that's there more for impressionable kiddies (Oh yeah, well I'M a ninja!) and making money, more than for the actual sake of teaching and passing on the martial arts tradition. What are some good ways to look into a place and see if it's legit?

[RealFolkBlues]

I've been thinking about entering a martial arts program for a bit now, mainly to help improve my self confidence and fitness - I'm not into big competitions or stuff like that. In fact there is a Ninjutsu dojo not far away that's accepting new members.

One thing I'm wary of though is going to a place that's there more for impressionable kiddies (Oh yeah, well I'M a ninja!) and making money, more than for the actual sake of teaching and passing on the martial arts tradition. What are some good ways to look into a place and see if it's legit?

Well, there's a few good indicators. Probably first is the rate at which most students advance through their belts. If a school gives any sort of guarantee about how fast you can make black belt, or if testing is rigidly done on a monthly interval and it looks like nobody ever gets held back from their next rank, the place is probably what you would call a black belt mill. These schools are pretty much just businesses, thus the colorful moniker "McDojo."

Secondly, and you already said you're not interested in competition, if a school is competitive, they may focus almost exclusively on tournament training. Competition has its place, but sometimes competitive schools will forget or neglect the other aspects of an art such as self defense or traditional practice.

Finally, if you can, try to check the descent of the masters of the school. If a master is just a couple masters descended from the founder of a style (I have had the good fortune to be able to say that I have trained under these conditions in a couple different arts,) it's a pretty safe bet his or her school is pretty damn solid.

The fitness concern is self-explanatory, but as for confidence, did you mean that you wanted that in an overall sense, or that you wanted to feel more physically secure? Either way, really, it sounds like that ninjitsu dojo you mentioned could be a winner.

[1337 1]

Well, there's a few good indicators. Probably first is the rate at which most students advance through their belts. If a school gives any sort of guarantee about how fast you can make black belt, or if testing is rigidly done on a monthly interval and it looks like nobody ever gets held back from their next rank, the place is probably what you would call a black belt mill. These schools are pretty much just businesses, thus the colorful moniker "McDojo."

Secondly, and you already said you're not interested in competition, if a school is competitive, they may focus almost exclusively on tournament training. Competition has its place, but sometimes competitive schools will forget or neglect the other aspects of an art such as self defense or traditional practice.

Finally, if you can, try to check the descent of the masters of the school. If a master is just a couple masters descended from the founder of a style (I have had the good fortune to be able to say that I have trained under these conditions in a couple different arts,) it's a pretty safe bet his or her school is pretty damn solid.

The fitness concern is self-explanatory, but as for confidence, did you mean that you wanted that in an overall sense, or that you wanted to feel more physically secure? Either way, really, it sounds like that ninjitsu dojo you mentioned could be a winner.

Notion seconded. Sure, its fun to say "hey look at my new black belt; it only took me 3 weeks", when you get your ass handed to you by a 3 year old...it does more harm than good in all respects. Also, the more personal, the better: smaller classes tend to be better than those with 50+ people

And make sure that if you go with the ninjitsu place, that the teacher doesn't say "believe it" every three seconds

[The Pezman]

I mostly agree with RFB, but I want to stress it's not always absolute. For example, standard practice here at Dickinson is to advance a belt at the end of every semester. We meet twice a week for an hour each time. And rarely do people get held back. The first impression of most people might be that this is not an effective way to operate, but we have a very good teacher (over twenty years of teaching experience, and just advanced to fifth degree last year... from third) and very smart students (that's just owing to how choosy Dickinson can afford to be these days). So we learn and internalize a good deal of stuff. Plus, we review old material. And we have approval from the national Chidokwan school.

[WesPip]

You had said that Kung Fu lost pretty hard in that National Geographic special, and then BlueMage asked what style of Kung Fu. Basically, I was bringing up old shit. My apologies for the confusion, sir.

May I say it's awesome to see a few serious ninjitsu practitioners in here. God I want to learn that stuff but bad. What do you guys thing of Stephen Hayes?

Uh, that was me that said it lost pretty hard.

I'm not sure it specified, but I THINK it was Shaolin kung fu. Can't be sure about that though.

But they measured impacts of the strongest punches and kicks and whatnot, and the kung fu guy came in last for every test, if I recall correctly. If not last, near for sure.

Side note: that section on drunken boxing was pretty epic.

[Tai_Zidek]

I was a practice dummy for a Judo class for over a year when I was like 8-9 years old. I was smaller than the other kids, so I guess I was perfect for the all the sweeps a throws I was put through.

I have thought of taking a martial arts class since then, but haven't really had the time.