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Siamey

Reason 4 sucks, an unbiased review.

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I don't want reason to be FL thanks, I left Fl cause Reason fucking wasn't FL. I've been using Reason as long as I can remember, and yes, for a long time the slogan was "stand alone music production thingy" and thats fine.

But its time to get with the fucking program.

Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written.

Let me be the first to say that Reason is a beautiful program and its brilliantly written and the audio programming team and propheads is one of the best in the world. They know how to write a damn program. They know how to write damn vsti support that doesn't require a quad core to run the demo song. Besides, if its programmed properly, vsti support shouldnt slow the program at all when vsti isnt being used. Don't like vsti? dont fucking use it, ignore the fact that its in the "add device" menu in reason 5 or 6 or whenever they add it, because it WILL be added. If you think it won't... well... think again.

There is no ancient tome of vsti programming knowledge scrawled on some temple wall, for us to painstakingly and badly translate, and thus add shoddy and cpu hogging support to our respective programs. Vsti is a worldwide standard and there is extensive documentation on how to add slick and steady support for it, given a programming staff that isnt inept. Almost every design choice they have made with reason, up until 4, I completely agreed with, but if they think they can survive, and grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools with this closeminded approach then they are going the same way as Arp. Everyone was adding pitch bend wheels to their synths but Arp wanted to be unique so they held off even when they were standard EVERYwhere else. WHOOPS OUT OF BUSINESS. People will only follow a good product so far after the developers get stubborn... or lazy, which is... maybe what propellerheads is.

The concept of Refills is another close-minded approach, and while I see what you mean about pissing off refill making companies... well... maybe thats what you get for investing in a possibly dead end product.

And making my own multisamples from a vst complient DAW, every time I want to use a vsti sound is stupidly tedious, it would be a thousand times better to just use it natively, which they could very well do if they wanted :/

By the way everyone, "an unbiased review" was a joke. Ofcourse Im ranting and wigging out, ofcourse they are my oppinions, who elses would they be.

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I don't want reason to be FL thanks, I left Fl cause Reason fucking wasn't FL. I've been using Reason as long as I can remember, and yes, for a long time the slogan was "stand alone music production thingy" and thats fine.

But its time to get with the fucking program.

Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written.

Let me be the first to say that Reason is a beautiful program and its brilliantly written and the audio programming team and propheads is one of the best in the world. They know how to write a damn program. They know how to write damn vsti support that doesn't require a quad core to run the demo song. Besides, if its programmed properly, vsti support shouldnt slow the program at all when vsti isnt being used. Don't like vsti? dont fucking use it, ignore the fact that its in the "add device" menu in reason 5 or 6 or whenever they add it, because it WILL be added. If you think it won't... well... think again.

There is no ancient tome of vsti programming knowledge scrawled on some temple wall, for us to painstakingly and badly translate, and thus add shoddy and cpu hogging support to our respective programs. Vsti is a worldwide standard and there is extensive documentation on how to add slick and steady support for it, given a programming staff that isnt inept. Almost every design choice they have made with reason, up until 4, I completely agreed with, but if they think they can survive, and grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools with this closeminded approach then they are going the same way as Arp. Everyone was adding pitch bend wheels to their synths but Arp wanted to be unique so they held off even when they were standard EVERYwhere else. WHOOPS OUT OF BUSINESS. People will only follow a good product so far after the developers get stubborn... or lazy, which is... maybe what propellerheads is.

The concept of Refills is another close-minded approach, and while I see what you mean about pissing off refill making companies... well... maybe thats what you get for investing in a possibly dead end product.

And making my own multisamples from a vst complient DAW, every time I want to use a vsti sound is stupidly tedious, it would be a thousand times better to just use it natively, which they could very well do if they wanted :/

By the way everyone, "an unbiased review" was a joke. Ofcourse Im ranting and wigging out, ofcourse they are my oppinions, who elses would they be.

Wow, I still think this is stupid. If you don't like Reason as it is now, don't use it. It's exactly the same as you said about VSTis. Propellerhead is obviously not going out of business with glowing reviews, a lot of users and a solid program. They don't need to "get with the program", they can focus on what they want to do instead.

Also, damn man, they don't WANT to be "grow into a program that will one day appear as the main platform for well known music tech schools". Why be something you aren't? Reason isn't as versatile or important to learn as Logic, ProTools or Cubase. It will probably never be, except in electronic music production classes and special reason classes (SAE for example offers Reason as part of their Electronic Music Production diploma).

You're constantly nagging about that you want Reason to have VSTi support but for no apparent reason except that they have to "get with the program" which is just narrow-minded. If it is because it suits your need as a musician, fine I can understand, but a company can't really bend to the will of all their users if it doesn't go hand in hand with their concept (Ableton Live however does that since most suggestions work for their program). Also, (legitimate) users have never really complained about it and Props has numerous times said that they will NEVER add it. Most people would accept this and Reason as what it is. It's apparent you can't do that but jeez, this discussion is getting annoying.

"Im going to assume that 100% of the anti-vsti-support people in this thread have no programming background and have little to no technical knowledge of how audio shit is written. " is just low. Do you have technical knowledge about programming audio software? or VSTs for that matter? Most people that say the program will get less stable with VST support has (I hope, at least I have) heard it from credible sources. Propellerhead has said it numerous times (as previously stated) and some of the Reason old-timers that has helped with the programming, patch designing and general evolution of Reason (some are also programmers) has stated the same.

The main point remains, don't use Reason if it doesn't fit you. Just stop complaining, do something constructive. Write a detailed letter to Propellerhead and explain why it would matter to YOU to have VST support, start a protest, make a youtube vid about how you have a hard time with R4. Just don't do this angry complaining thing. It's annoying and unnessecary.

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Its perfectly sane to complain that a program you have used for years has suddenly made big changes that affect your workflow, so what the fuck are you talking about. Take your own advice, if you dont like it, dont read it. If its getting annoying then go home.

I already sent letters, clearly explaining the problems with reason 4, this isn't just a bitch session, its a debate.

Prop-heads is bullshitting about vsti support destroying the stability. If you have good programmers then there is nothing to bitch about. Besides, I personally don't care about vsti, but it just happens to be at the center of the issue Im bringing up, which is that Reason is fucking closeminded, and could be doing more to make their program interact well with other programs, at little cost to them.

Im raising the issues that haven't been talked about on here yet, its not pointless complaining. I can assure you I've taken "constructive" actions on the matter.

Just dont use reason if it doesnt suit you. :):):) Wow, I can honestly say that I have never heard that advice before, or even thought about it before. Imagine that, if something doesn't work for me, I should change it, what a novel idea. I can honestly say, with no hint of sarcasm, that I have never thought of that before.

What the hell else is the reason forum for, if not talking about reason? Don't try to shut me up, it's annoying and unnessecary.

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hmm.. when they say that vst's will create instability, are you assuming instability because of the support or instability of the vst in question. From what I assume, they would be able to create vst support easily, the whole "becoming unstable" thing is directed at the mounds of vst's out there already. Alot of them can be unstable in themselves and cause programs to crash, thus loosing work, thus corrupting things, etc. Also, vst's out there could be massively CPU intensive thus if it were to be used in reason, then reason wouldnt be very cpu friendly would it?

Think about it this way. Lets say a vst is like a hardware driver. Do wou want to use some random guys gfx card driver, over the ones that were made for the product itself? I know I wouldnt.

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Its perfectly sane to complain that a program you have used for years has suddenly made big changes that affect your workflow, so what the fuck are you talking about. Take your own advice, if you dont like it, dont read it. If its getting annoying then go home.

I already sent letters, clearly explaining the problems with reason 4, this isn't just a bitch session, its a debate.

Prop-heads is bullshitting about vsti support destroying the stability. If you have good programmers then there is nothing to bitch about. Besides, I personally don't care about vsti, but it just happens to be at the center of the issue Im bringing up, which is that Reason is fucking closeminded, and could be doing more to make their program interact well with other programs, at little cost to them.

Im raising the issues that haven't been talked about on here yet, its not pointless complaining. I can assure you I've taken "constructive" actions on the matter.

Just dont use reason if it doesnt suit you. :):):) Wow, I can honestly say that I have never heard that advice before, or even thought about it before. Imagine that, if something doesn't work for me, I should change it, what a novel idea. I can honestly say, with no hint of sarcasm, that I have never thought of that before.

What the hell else is the reason forum for, if not talking about reason? Don't try to shut me up, it's annoying and unnessecary.

You were talking about VST support a LOT and not much about the new sequencer in the latest post. While it's perfectly sane to discuss changes you disliked in an application you use (though it would be nice to discuss it without sounding like an ass) that was not what you were doing in the post I replied to.

Reason hasn't actually changed much except the workflow in the sequencer, you're talking about totally changing their philosophy about the program. Why did you start complaining about this in R4? R3 didn't "interact well with other programs" nor feature VST's, a 303-device or another format than Refills, but you enjoyed that?

I've never had any problems with ReWire and I've used it extensively with other programs, mostly at school, like Logic, ProTools and Ableton Live.

hell,

Wow, specfuckingtacular. Guess what? Get fruityloops. Or Live. Or Cubase. Or any program that allows tempo automation. Its called rewire, its not hard.
, you said it.

Another thing, do you or do you not know much about audio software programming? You're saying that they should just "get better programmers", like it was a piece of cake. First of all, they're a REALLY tiny company, 10 people in their main offic I believe and just a few of them are programmers. Second of all, VST WOULD (and this is a fact, props has said it many times) require them to rebuild the core of the program. The core that's been praised for it's stability, ease of use and ability to produce good sounds. It's very possible they do not want to do that for something they don't even think is nessecary because of other technologies that somehow complements Reason, ReWire.

I'm not trying to shut you up, I'm debating. I was telling you what I thought, for the most part in a more civilized way than you did.

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See, I have the problem that i agree with both sides to some extent.

The way I see it, adding vst support to reason is unnecessary not because of the instability issues, (because that really is just the vst's fault, not Reason's) but because most of the professionals that use Reason and a damn huge portion of the user base that I've talked to over there uses Reason as a massive vst in the first place. ReWire basically uses Reason as a vst in a host program BECAUSE it doesn't use vst's; its like having a vst in a vst.

On the other hand, I agree that its rather strange that Reason has revamped a large number of the user's bigger complaints and not added vst. It would be nice to have a vst in Reason if that's all you use, but seriously, if you really do want to go far in music production, you can't confine yourself to the one program and bitch and complain that it doesnt do everything all the other programs do. Thats the same exact reason I haven't upgrraded; they seem to have tried to copy a lot of other programs' sequencers, and in doing so lost the original charm of Reason. I loved being able to just tap enter twice to get back to the beginning of the song. Now it just opens and closes an envelope bar or something.

As for the comment about how nobody knows how audio software works, I would like to pose the question; do you? I have done my share of researching on how a lot of the back end programming works, and while not being a computer programmer myself, I sure know what goes on behind the scenes in most programs. I have, however, written many patches, many synthesizers in Reaktor and have been through so many technical forums on how music software is made, that I'm pretty sure I know more than what it sounds like you do. VST support itself, while not too taxing on the program when it isn't being used (though it does take up a fair amount from what I've looked at when I've turned off empty vst tracks in Live), once you actually add a program to the vst rack, it needs to load its own basic architecture in just to begin with, while there is also architecture going on in the host program. Basically, it wouldn't be terrible to add it in, it just wouldn't make sense to the average user when it already has a damn competent array of architecture to begin with.

Not to get off on a tangent, but what I'm trying to get to is the fact that Reason is never going to have vst, because the people they are trying to make happy and the role they're trying to fill just doesn't include vst's. Its like buying a good synthesizer, playing it for a while and then saying that it fucking needs a goddamn sampler otherwise its a piece of shit. IT doesn't fit that role and doesn't need to. Now, I'm not saying everyone needs to have the same workflow as me, or anything, but Reason is mostly used as a workhorse program or used as a sketch-pad for a majority of the people it is being sold to. That is the role it plays and I don't think it will ever go out of style.

I also don't want this to sound like an attack on Siamey, seeing as how I agree that they screwed up (in my eyes) on the new version.

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lol @ "then saying that it fucking needs a goddamn sampler otherwise its a piece of shit."

cause it was funny as hell and it reminded me that i swear too much when i get all angsty when i post complaints.

I agree with that though

by the way AS, just cause they have 10 people doesnt mean its a small company. Reason is a very well selling product and since its not a physical thing (besides the packaging), there is no ceiling on their income. I would have a heard time believing that they couldnt afford to rewrite the core correctly (if it needed that).

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by the way AS, just cause they have 10 people doesnt mean its a small company. Reason is a very well selling product and since its not a physical thing (besides the packaging), there is no ceiling on their income. I would have a heard time believing that they couldnt afford to rewrite the core correctly (if it needed that).

Yeah, you're right about that. Though Reason is one of the most pirated products out there because it's so easy to crack. But you're probably right that they could affor to rewrite the core, but it's still a tedious task they wouldn't want to spend their manpower on :) That was what I meant even though I was unclear.

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Yea, thats the point Im trying to get accross is that its not out of their reach, its just not in their agenda, and thats what my problem is with them.

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The project manager behind Reason 4 already said not to expect VSTI or audio-in support any time soon. The specific reason because this was "we don't want to become an inferior cubase [or to compete with steinberg]." Adding or not adding VSTi support and audio-in has little to do with Reason's cpu usage and stability, the main influence behind these decisions is marketing and business. They truly believe that without these components they are are securing a safer future with more loyal customers by marketing their product to a niche market. It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do marketing. Propellerheads, like all the other audio software companies, focus on making money, not DAWs.

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The project manager behind Reason 4 already said not to expect VSTI or audio-in support any time soon. The specific reason because this was "we don't want to become an inferior cubase [or to compete with steinberg]." Adding or not adding VSTi support and audio-in has little to do with Reason's cpu usage and stability, the main influence behind these decisions is marketing and business. They truly believe that without these components they are are securing a safer future with more loyal customers by marketing their product to a niche market. It has nothing to do with programming and everything to do marketing. Propellerheads, like all the other audio software companies, focus on making money, not DAWs.

Thank you, my point exactly

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Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

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Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

BGC saves the fucking DAY :D

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Wow, talk about ignorance. You're all idiots. Reason does in fact suck. FL is ridiculously lame. Live and Sonar make crap smell good. Cubase, Logic, Acid--if they were 50 times better, they'd still be meh. There is but one DAW for the serious composer.

And no, I'm not talking about Pro Tools.

www.biggiantcircles.com/awesome_DAW.JPG

Hey, I know how to use that one!

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i think reason 4 is good and the sequencer makes a lot of sence... i just dont like how you still cant record into reason and still cant use any sort of vst of rtas or anyother plugin.

siamy....i understand your frustration from going to reason 4 from reason 3 but after a while everything clicks and makes a lot of sence.

anyways.. propellerhead could still improve a lot of stuff in my opinion but it works for what it does!

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I know I'm digging this thing up from the dead but I thought I'd chime my two cents. I was in the beta test for Reason 4 and I even submitted enough bugs that I would have gotten a discount on Reason 4.0. I even bought it and while it was shipping I had it returned.

I've used Reason since it's first version and once 3.0 was released, I was already looking on switching - and it's not because Reason 'sucks', it's because I felt limited by Reason with regards to work flow, sound engineering, and synth creation.

The sound quality of Reason sounds great in Reason, and it sounds great when you Rewire it to other software. When you export a wav/aif file in Reason (no matter what options you use) the sound quality simply doesn't reflect what you could 'hear' when the song is played through Reason. There is a number of reasons this is the case, and I understand that the algorithms are increasingly complex with regards to making the sound 'perfect' for every user.

It was when I started getting serious about music that I realized that Reason is really for the music enthusiast - the person who really enjoys writing music but doesn't have the time to spend hours on end trying to produce quality. So what Propellerheads did was create a software that would 'do' things for you so you wouldn't have to worry about it - with regards to sound engineering and synth production. Many of the VSTi's out there do the same thing. Now with Reason you CAN get awesome sound quality - but you literally have to 'trick' the software into exporting the sound you want rather than what you hear. For example, when I EQed my song bass light, the exported wav had the bass heavier and the song came out much crisper and cleaner. I felt like I was tricking the software to give me the sounds I wanted rather than producing what I could hear and monitor. This also leads me to - Reason's monitoring software is pretty lousy, compare the professional software out there that allows you to literally analyze every EQ cut of your entire song - individual tracks - and allow you to edit so that your sound comes out clean and crisp. Anyways, enough about trying to trash Reason.

So why I switched from Reason 3.0.4 to Cubase 4.1.3 instead of upgrading to Reason 4.0 - these are the main reasons:

1) Reason takes more time to create the same sound than what Cubase does. There are synths I want to spend a lot of time on, and there are sounds that I really shouldn't.

I have Reaktor 5 if I want to sit around and plug in wires to ports all day and create my own synth module. I have NWBass for a really simple psybassline.

With Reason, I would take the same amount of time to create both, unless I used a preset (Sir Nuts did a great job with his combinator set - much kudos!)

2) Reason 4.0's Thor has some really neat features, but I just felt that even though you could 'build' your own synth, what other VSTi's had to offer just had higher quality.

3) Live Audio recoding, importing, editing are all missing from Reason 4.0, and I found myself using either the redrummer, NN-19, or NN-XT to play long waves. I had to literally restart the song if I wanted to hear the wave or cut it up externally.

4) Midi controllers, I have a few synths (go go Roland) at home that's been collecting dust since I got Reason. Now with Cubase, I can finally start utilizing it again.

5) The biggest reason for my switch is Third Party support. I can't submit the Xaleph Maelstrom that has additional knobs or switches - or splices the sound differently. I can't create my own sound effect plugins using my own algorithm for a randomizer. These tools just don't exist outside the reuse of already existing products. Though the combinator and thor is really nice at allowing people to 'make' something similar, you are still are limited very specifically to what those devices can or cannot provide. With VST, I can program my own software OR I can use others. Though these are side effects from not allowing VST support, the greater issue is third party support and this is why:

Third party software challenges the quality of your own modules. Steinberg has to keep updating their synths or they will be left behind other VST support. VST companies generally will create better modules the host company's module, mainly due to the fact that the VST company can focus primarily on the VST and the host's main focus will always be the stability of the host. The Host, if using a standard VST interface, can anticipate the protocol (as it is standardized) and easily integrate each unit properly. Of course there is more overhead on the VST client as well as the Host (so more ram and cpu is needed) but you have the flexibility and quality desired. This is why Cubase, along with other host software, have introduced the concept of 'freezing' the track - basically creating a render of the track and then playing the wav in the place of the actual vst in order to save memory and cpu.

In Reason's case, their main focus will always be the host and not the modules. If the host fails, the modules don't matter. To them, the modules really are a liability and they won't ever try cutting edge technology. Since they have a stable unit, it would be unnecessary to really do anything else.

If Reason opened their code to allow for custom modules (not reuse, but creating what they haven't) or if they allowed some kind of plugin support, I would be still using Reason.

6) The Cubase 4.0 crossgrade version was about the same price as Full Reason 4 (non upgrade) and I felt that if I were to switch at any time, financially this was my opportunity.

Do I regret using and/or owning Reason? No, it was a great piece of software to write music, and I enjoyed the interface and experience quite a bit. I put together some songs I really love and I'm glad Propellerheads put it together. It can produce powerful sounds and can do some pretty neat things. I still plan on using it when I go on road trips (on my laptop), but my serious work will be done on Cubase.

Do I think Reason sucks? No, I just feel that it's lack of third party support doesn't create the quality control or 'checks and balances' that the company needs.

Do I think FL is the bomb? No, I used FL a few times, and I really didn't like the interface too much for very shallow reasons... like.... it really is way too fruity for me.

Does Cubase provide better tools that Reason? Well, yeah... it really does. Even the defaults are very nice.

Is Cubase perfect? No, they have a ton of problems and are also losing their user base to Sonar (ironically there are a ton of Reason converts on the Cubase forums - like there are a TON of rewire and reason discussions). Cubase 4.0 had a ton of bugs and the developers are pretty slow at addressing them - but they have updates once every 3-4 months... Note that Reason had updates like once every 2 years... I think Cubase 4.1.3 addresses some issues, and I hope they patch some of them sooner than later.

About VSTs: VST doesn't mean quality - and anyone who thinks I thought the grass was greener on the other side probably didn't know I used to use VST's in Acid Pro and Logic (pre-Apple) before I switched to Reason. VST can mean crap, and there is a lot of it out there. The VSTs now (compared to Reason 1.0 days) are incredibly better and have good customer support. I'm looking into buying some Native Instrument packages currently - and the drum machine called 'Guru' is pretty hot. VSTs can produce problems, but I don't agree it would mean lack of stability, unless the Propellerhead software developers aren't skilled enough or the current Reason architecture uses legacy code and can't handle new features - Then I would agree that it would reduce stability, if you've ever programmed VST software for fun, you'll understand what I mean that stability should not be a problem. You import a lowsy VST that crashes/lags your entire environment (ie it doesn't work). You delete the files and restart Reason - No problems. The real reason that the Reason team doesn't want the VST support is because of the competition it would create between their own developers and NI, Spectrasonics, reFX, Rob Papen, and other VST developer teams. It's easier to not have to deal with competition, especially when you are so proud of your progress..... With that said, because stability is NOT the main reason that Reason doesn't support VST and 'control' is, you will never see third party or vst support.

In conclusion - I'm pretty sad that I left Reason, I really liked the setup, the interface, even the new sequencer. Thor looked promising and I really liked the additional arpeggiator and that groove beat thingy I played with quite a bit in the beta. I just don't like the direction that Reason is heading (and has been heading) - and it's not that they've changed direction, I have changed/matured musically. Through working in several software development teams, I can see through Propellerheads much easier and I don't think they'll change in the direction that would fit my growth.

THE TLDR VERSION

Sorry Reason, It's not you.... it's me...

We've just... grown apart...

I think we can still 'just' be friends! ... right?

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Yeah that was a good post dude!

While I have only done about 2-3 songs entirely in Reason I use it in almost every song I do. For beats and rhythms it just kicks ass. Now if they only built in Recycle and put a reverse button on ReDrum.

Overall I think it's a great learning tool to help learn about mastering and production and especially the importance of signal flow in an FX chain. It's closed environment is a great place to help learn the valuable lesson of "do the best with the tools you got."

Whether it's synth sounds fit your musical style is entirely luck. Although it has TONS of awesome affordable Refills with good vintage synth sounds. The Deepflight Roland D-50 refill is mouth watering.

Allowing 3rd party devs to develop plugins for it would be just about the best thing for the program. Unless they really start getting innovative by Reason 6.0 things will start to get stale from a development standpoint.

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I started with Reason 2.5 and haven't ever really made substantial music with it (but I think that's due to limits of my creativity rather than any problem with the software at the moment).

I'm debating if making the shift to Reason 4 is worth it... this thread seems to have a lot more people trashing it than praising it.

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It's enough for me, all remixes by me are pure Reason at the moment. I have ProTools and Logic too (gonna sell my protools rig eventually since I switched career path) and will use Logic more because of some obvious reasons.

Still, I will never be as creative as I am in Reason in any other DAW and the sounds it produces is good enough for any commercial release. And if it's not, I ReWire it to get what's missing.

In any case it will always be the meat of my music.

EDIT: also, good post Xaleph. Very honest and well written.

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