zircon & sgx place #3 and #6 in OurStage June - Thanks for the help guys!

[PhiJayy]

Seeing that each artist (probably) has fans who are doing the same thing, it all evens out.

That's good. I haven't thought of it that way, but even that poses a problem.

Some artist's have more fans than others. Now lets say a "popular artist" offers fans "whatever" for votes. Who's gonna win? Of course he/she is. No question about it.

Now, even worse lets say a "popular artist" throws in a song that isn't as good as his competitors. The deal with his/her fans still applies here. Should the "popular artist" win? No. Will he/she win anyway? Yes. Sometimes even the fans admit that the song isn't all that great, but still votes for the "popular artist" anyway. What? That makes no sense.

This is nothing new though. This has been going on for centuries and this problem goes far beyond music.

[sgx]

Pretty sure you probably wanted to put "SGX" in for "popular artist."

Popular is a relative term - I dunno how 'popular' I am but, yeah I have fans out there that will do stuff if I ask them to. I didn't get them by showing up with shitty music a month ago. I've been making music for 7 years and have worked pretty hard having a website and constant online presence the whole time. I haven't had any lucky breaks or handy connections - its me making good music and working to cultivate the fans. Part of the ourstage game is how well you can move your fans to the site and have them vote. If they wanted it to be a true judge of the songs involved, it would be a blind competition - they'd just play the song and not have an image or credit and ask you to rate.

And as Audix said, it is very hard to affect anything before the quarter-finals, so the top 20 at least are there legitamately.

[Jillian Aversa]

Less scrutinizing, more voting! ^_~

[Jewbei]

Welp it looks like i wont be going to the finals but im very proud that i made it to the semi finals i was #3 i didnt think that so many people would like Aqualight. Mad people are hitting me up saying how good the track is and it gave me a bigger fan base. We shall see how things are next month. ^^

[Sole Signal]

Welp it looks like i wont be going to the finals but im very proud that i made it to the semi finals i was #3 i didnt think that so many people would like Aqualight. Mad people are hitting me up saying how good the track is and it gave me a bigger fan base. We shall see how things are next month. ^^

You've still got two hours, man. The standings can change drastically in that amount of time, you'll learn quickly.

[sgx]

Wow...I was in 2nd all day in techno with jewbei right behind (nice track, btw man) and the Lori track in 1st. Didn't think it would change. Changed....I won that channel. Also won with But Underneath All That in experimental. Noice.

[zircon]

Looks like we are in the finals now - thanks for all the votes everyone. I made it with "Drum and Bossa" - was hoping for "Rainforest Majesty", which was extremely strong all month, and then dropped to #7 in the last 5 mins of the semifinals. Oh well.

The finals have a ton of battles, but do what you can - EVERY vote matters, as we saw last month, where Jill came in 2nd at the last minute (coming up from the 20s-30s for most of the day.) Also, not to be a hater, but if sgx comes up against me, since he already won the grand prize, show me some love.

[sgx]

Hey, hey, You won half a grand prize didnt'cha? And I gave you a reprieve from SGX competition last month!

[Jewbei]

Wow...I was in 2nd all day in techno with jewbei right behind (nice track, btw man) and the Lori track in 1st. Didn't think it would change. Changed....I won that channel. Also won with But Underneath All That in experimental. Noice.

Hey man thanks im glad you liked it. but yeah i really had fun and realized my talents i cant wait to see what is in store for next month.

[Bahamut]

Over 1100 battles .

[Liontamer]

Wow...I was in 2nd all day in techno with jewbei right behind (nice track, btw man) and the Lori track in 1st. Didn't think it would change. Changed....I won that channel.

That was me.

[Jillian Aversa]

sgx: No, he didn't win anything. I donated a portion (less than half) to him for his countless hours of work mixing & mastering my entire album. That was payment, nothing else. I was going to give it to him out of my own money in the first place. It wasn't his song, and it wasn't payment for the song.

For the record, jewbei, I thought your track was awesome. I think the Lori Cunningham remix should have won Techno (and it almost did until the last 5 minutes), but you were a close second in my mind. You should still be proud! ^-^

[Jewbei]

yeah im very proud fo sho...i dunno now im kind of hype to start focusing more on making more original pieces Frankly speaking Aqualight is my best track ever i cant even get my remixes to sound close to that. I strongly feel that I spend a lil more time writing more original tunes that it will help me more on my arrangement skills.

[PhiJayy]

Pretty sure you probably wanted to put "SGX" in for "popular artist."

Popular is a relative term - I dunno how 'popular' I am but, yeah I have fans out there that will do stuff if I ask them to. I didn't get them by showing up with shitty music a month ago.

Yeah I was talking about you, but not just you. So "popular artist" fits, and frankly I feel that OCR artists will keep winning every month.

Yes, there was no doubt in our mind that both you and Zircon would get the #1 spot. (I'm sure there wasn't any doubt in your minds either.)

No doubt at all.

I mean think about it OCR has alot of influence on Ourstage.

Since March 2008 at least one or more OCR artist has won in a genre.

YOU guys are the judges. YOU guys determine who wins or who loses, and guess what? These judges always choose themselves.

No matter what "philosophy" you bring up to justify your actions.

It won't change our minds, this isn't fair and YOU guys know it.

We're not hating on OCR artists. We love your music, some of you guys are very talented.

Just give other people a chance. When other artists are competing against OCR artists THEY CAN'T WIN. (Especially when there trying to take the #1 spot in a channel.)

And as Audix said, it is very hard to affect anything before the quarter-finals, so the top 20 at least are there legitamately.

"Legitimately" whatever dude. Maybe everyone else but not OCR.

[Chickenwarlord]

Phijayy, you could judge over 2000 songs in a single channel during the prelims and not run across your song once. The top 20 selections are largely in part made by the masses who are unaware of your work.

I know you might feel that your chances are being narrowed by the fact that OCR artists are getting votes from their fanbase. EVERYONE who enters lowers your chances. If you look amongst the contestants there are other bands and artists (such as Admiral Twin) who are consistently making top 20 all around. Success isn't generally a fluke.

I highly encourage people to go in blindly to this and just vote for what they think is better. You might be surprised how many times that goes in OCR's favor this late in the game, regardless of previous fandom.

[Liontamer]

That these guys, through their talent, have cultivated fanbases big enough to be successful at OurStage sounds like a good thing to me. But, to clarify, they can't guarantee themselves wins. They can guarantee that they'll have a strong showing though.

[Bahamut]

At least voting is a great way to put me to sleep. I'm about 1/5th through, and I see zircon #2 so far - let's make him #1 people!

[Sole Signal]

"Legitimately" whatever dude. Maybe everyone else but not OCR.

ChickenWarlord is right on. Making the quarterfinals is very tough; you have to have a legitimately good track to even have a chance at making it. Also, my three genre wins over the past two months ended up with around 10,000 song plays each. Optimistically, how many of those were OCR votes do you think? 1,000? 700? Sure, the OCR votes help but the majority of the votes are from "unbiased" fans who are running up the spots of their own favorite artists.

[PhiJayy]

Since you guys are obviously claiming that OCR has little control over Ourstage.

Let us ask you this.

How come since March 2008 every OCR artist who is in the quarterfinals wins the #1 spot?

Without fail, every time no exceptions. March, April, May, and June.

Now lets get even more granular. Since March 2008 a month hasn't went by without an OCR artist in the quarterfinalist. Talent plays alittle role in this, because there are alot of talented people outside of OCR.

Audix, tell me if you weren't an OCR artist and you went up against one competing for the #1 spot. Would you have won? Or would you have been like Lori Cunningham and Jewbei? Your music for the most part is pretty awesome, but could you win with your talents alone?

Making the quarterfinals is very tough; you have to have a legitimately good track to even have a chance at making it.

How many crappy songs have made it in the quarterfinals? Countless.

Phijayy, you could judge over 2000 songs in a single channel during the prelims and not run across your song once. The top 20 selections are largely in part made by the masses who are unaware of your work.

Roughly, I'd say that the number of entries in each channel is around 400 on a average. (Excluding Rock, Rap, and Hip-Hop OCR hardly submits there anyway.) Trust me it doesn't take 2000 votes to run across your own track. We've ran across our own track under a 100 votes.

Asking for votes in this huge public forum just seems wrong to us.

Someone made a joke two months ago about renaming "Ourstage" to "OCRstage."

That joke is slowly becoming a reality month by month.

By the way we're not the only ones complaining. Lot's are and expect more.

[Maruku]

hmm, they could also be winning because they are absolutely amazing... good music gets good credit... the fact that they do constantly win because of their fanbase is a testament to that. Yes it is partially a popularity contest, but in this day and age, popularity has become a part of music.

Grats to Zircon and SGX though... absolutely love your guys' work. Looking forward to your next songs.

[Liontamer]

Sure, I agree with PhiJayy that making the quaterfinals doesn't mean your song is good. BUT it's still difficult to make the quarterfinals due to the low signal-to-noise ratio and that people have to vote within huge rounds to make a dent for you. IMO, that's largely left up to the "unwashed masses" to decide, and you hope the cream rises to the top. If you can get help, that's great, because otherwise, even if your track is awesome, it can get lost in the shuffle.

Since you guys are obviously claiming that OCR has little control over Ourstage.

I definitely never claimed that. The OCR fans obviously make a difference, and I think that's great. I'm proud that being an OC ReMixer means you have a great fanbase to call on who will actually go to bat for you, and CARE about an artist's original work. It just shows why this community is great, and that it's a legitimate community. But they don't guarantee any wins. And if they did, OCR guys would win $5K every month, no contest. OCR doesn't have little control, but the influence of OCR fans isn't some sort of unstoppable victory force.

Now, you're also complaining because artists are willing to offer up free downloads of paid material or coupons for sales of music if they win, because that's unfair. Now if OurStage says it's unfair, then sure, don't do it. But if they have no issue with that, then it seems to me like that's tough shit. These artists can offer stuff in the first place because their music is good enough and has earned enough of a reputation where it is now desired by others. So people are willing to do things to get the music. If your music doesn't command that kind of reaction from people, that's tough shit again. I agree that sucks, but that just means you try harder.

Short of encouraging people to game the system, these guys and girls are trying to win, and they happen to have more resources at their disposal because they had a head start through more experience and built-in fanbases. If you were winning, in all likelihood you wouldn't be questioning this system. You would be too busy being glad that you were winning. So according to your system, popular artists can't call on their fans to support them, because they have too many?!? And they might win?!?

[PhiJayy]

And if they did, OCR guys would win $5K every month, no contest.

Oh yeah boo-whoo. OCR won twice in a row and missed one month. April and May they took the 5k. Who says they won't pick it right back up, heck this month. OCR is bigger than you think.

If you were winning, in all likelihood you wouldn't be questioning this system. You would be too busy being glad that you were winning.

Guess what we're not winning and we know why. Other artists know why too. This isn't just about my brother and I.

So according to your system, popular artists can't call on their fans to support them, because they have too many?!? And they might win?!?

That's not what I said buddy. This is all manipulative . Very manipulative.

[Tensei]

PhiJayy, I think you might be forgetting the fact that just about ANY artist who makes it to the quarter finals will probably be begging all his friends, family and fans to vote. Hell, I would do the same, it's 5k on the line!

Sure, in an ideal world people would only vote for the music they really like, so I agree that this kind of votewhoring is a bit immoral, but everyone does it, and that's the way it's going to be.

I'm sure the non-OCR artists who get consistently high placed do just as much 'votewhoring' on their Myspace/facebook/forums/whatever as the artists here, so please don't place all the blame on OCR. It's just that artists here have a much more efficient way of asking things of their fanbase (through this forum and through IRC), and thus have a very good shot at taking first place once they make it to the quarter finals (which by itself is pretty hard actually!)

That said, I think it's kind of silly how you refer to the different artists as a single OCR-entity, it's not like OCR is a hive-mind or anything.

Edit: Also, the reason you're not winning (the reason you didn't make quarter finals), is just because your music wasn't good enough! (Same here though) You can hardly exert any control over the standings pre-quarter finals ( I asked Zircon about this once I submitted a song there, I immediately wanted to start votewhoring), so at that point it really comes down to the quality of the song itself, rather than how much of a fanbase you can conjure up.

[OverCoat]

PhiJayy, if you think the system isn't fair, then don't use OurStage.

Alternate ending: Become more popular than zircon or SGX, or make better songs than theirs.

I enter my song, even though I have no chance of winning - at least some people will hear it. Or at least the first 15 seconds. Since OurStage is such a clusterfuck though, only 106 people so far have heard Evaporative Air Coolers since March. It was worth a shot though.

However, I do agree that the OurStage system is mostly retarded - there's probably a lot of godly material that doesn't even make it to the quarterfinals, just because nobody got to that 36,000th random battle yet. Not a very accurate quality control method. After the quarterfinals start comes the actual quality control by mob rule, aka "who has the most dedicated fans?" yet another shitty quality control method. But hey, with OurStage, let's face it - it's about the money. Everybody wants that shiny $5k and other glittering prizes, so how else are you going to do it, other than votewhore? I've yet to see anyone win anything with talent alone.

If you're that confident that you think your song should win contests, send it to a legitimate one, with actual judges.

[Jillian Aversa]

Seriously, this controversy is getting annoying. I think everyone has made their point by now, no? Let's just have some fun and vote today! Both zircon and sgx are incredibly talented, hardworking individuals... They deserve our support, because we are an enormous portion of their fan base.

I'm going to do all 1,128 rounds!

What are you going to do?