zircon & sgx place #3 and #6 in OurStage June - Thanks for the help guys!

[PhiJayy]

Seriously, though, you've made your point. Fans and friends here aren't going to stop voting because of your protests. So unless your intention is to be as much of a party pooper as possible (and I should hope it's not), why not give it a rest? Talking in circles will get nobody anywhere.

Well just ban us then. If you feel that way.

[big giant circles]

Well just ban us then. If you feel that way.

seriously though, that's uncalled for.

[Bahamut]

Hy Bound you've got us all wrong, we're not all about ourselves. Just to clarify. We didn't even make the quarterfinals this month. People have just been wondering why OCR artist has won in every genre there competing in. Granted SGX, Big Z, and Jill are talented, but so is alot of peeps on Ourstage.

You do know that some of the other artists on Ourstage bring in far larger fanbases than OCR does right? Unless you happen to bring in a very large fanbase, your track can't suck THAT much to win (excepting maybe last month's winner). Sure, the best track may not necessarily win, but that's the whole nature of this type of contest.

seriously though, that's uncalled for.

QFT - why is a ban necessary here? What pixie was saying is that your complaints shouldn't be taken to such a degree - everyone entering the competition should know that Ourstage is designed like that, but for an artist, it doesn't hurt to try. Even if you don't win first in a genre, or first place in the finals, the main objective of such a competition is to expose artists to new audiences, even some who might normally listen to music far apart from what you make. The money is really secondary to this purpose.

[PhiJayy]

In a nutshell - We still think that posting a thread and asking for votes in this huge community is wrong, but that's just are opinion.

You guys can do whatever you think is best. If you think this is cool, than continue to do it.

As pixie mentioned we can't stop you.

We're just trying to make you guys think about others. Thats all. Just to clarify again this is not about us. Not at all. We're just spokesmans.

This is our last post in this thread. (Heck probably in OCR.) So don't worry about us anymore.

(And no, we don't think we're better than any of you.)

[Cyan_Ide]

QFT - why is a ban necessary here?

I disagree. Jill’s statement came off very hostile to me. It sounded a lot like censure to me. A ban is merely the final form of censorship. Maybe you want to take it out of this thread which is utilized for support of OCR OurStage? Fine, but don't outright end it.

Listen, I see both sides of the issues. PhiJayy is pointing out the [blatantly obvious] flaws in the system, and honestly, the nepotism is pretty thinly veiled, and even encouraged by the site proper, it appears. But you guys are leveraging the power of a community to which you have dedicated many hours to, which is also understandable. After all why not use it to gain more community exposure? The only difference is that PhiJayy is a bit more idealist, and pointing out the fallacies of the broken system. You guys are utilizing the Machine to its fullest potential in order to beat it. Not your fault the system is broken, you’re just working in it, which is why I can’t definitively agree with PhiJayy or disagree with you. I can’t say which one is right, but obviously it has spawned a discussion that has involved more than just PhiJayy, including McVaffe and Dhsu, so obviously it *is* a topic that merits further discussion. That said, comments like ‘there’s no need for drama’ and ‘you’ve made your point’ are clear-cut attempts [to me, at least] to nip any dissent at the bud. If you disagree, do so, but don’t go about it by shutting PhiJayy up.

[sgx]

My thoughts exactly. I haven't said anything about being involved with OCR at all at ourstage.

But enough, more voting now guys.

Somehow Lori Cunningham (artist with the track I jumped ahead of at the last minute in the techno channel) knows about OCR. We've been exposed! ohnoes.

[Bahamut]

I disagree. Jill’s statement came off very hostile to me. It sounded a lot like censure to me. A ban is merely the final form of censorship. Maybe you want to take it out of this thread which is utilized for support of OCR OurStage? Fine, but don't outright end it.

Listen, I see both sides of the issues. PhiJayy is pointing out the [blatantly obvious] flaws in the system, and honestly, the nepotism is pretty thinly veiled, and even encouraged by the site proper, it appears. But you guys are leveraging the power of a community to which you have dedicated many hours to, which is also understandable. After all why not use it to gain more community exposure? The only difference is that PhiJayy is a bit more idealist, and pointing out the fallacies of the broken system. You guys are utilizing the Machine to its fullest potential in order to beat it. Not your fault the system is broken, you’re just working in it, which is why I can’t definitively agree with PhiJayy or disagree with you. I can’t say which one is right, but obviously it has spawned a discussion that has involved more than just PhiJayy, including McVaffe and Dhsu, so obviously it *is* a topic that merits further discussion. That said, comments like ‘there’s no need for drama’ and ‘you’ve made your point’ are clear-cut attempts [to me, at least] to nip any dissent at the bud. If you disagree, do so, but don’t go about it by shutting PhiJayy up.

My problem with his complaints aren't really the complaints themselves - it's that he formed them in an incredibly whiny way, that he has no hope if OCRers vote, and repeatedly posts this antagonistic view that he can't do anything for himself while this situation continues, as if others aren't doing far worse and as if the effects of the negative encouragement some make aren't far more evident. Most of the great artists out there just take it as tough luck, and use it as incentive to make better music that stands out more on its own merits, music that they can be proud of regardless of any affiliation. I don't see any of that in his posts in this thread, which is why he is getting the hostile responses - it is just deserved IMO for such an attitude.

Edit: And for more relevant news, I finished voting on all 1128 entries.

[Remarkable]

Well just ban us then. If you feel that way.

How interesting? OCR vs Ourstage, there's seems to be some dispute about this..

[Jillian Aversa]

sgx: I did a shout out to OCR (and you and Andy) in my OurStage interview after I won the grand prize. It's not a secret, but I don't know how many people follow the written stuff. The OurStage staff, at least, have no problem with the community whatsoever. :>

Also, Lori and I have been in touch before because she's also a Mystic Soundscapes artist. She loves Andy's music, too, so she may have read up on us out of curiosity.

[Jewbei]

wow...maybe i need to hang out here more often i like the controversy ...very delicious

[Siamey]

Less scrutinizing, more voting! ^_~

Yes, fuck the obvious and ridiculous unfairness of this site, shut up and vote!! more $$$!!!

[big giant circles]

If you disagree, do so, but don’t go about it by shutting PhiJayy up.

The purpose of the thread was to ask the community for support. Not start a heated debate which ultimately has derailed it with philosophy and people's personal beliefs of idealism etc. At this point, I'd say he's pretty thoroughly derailed the thread.

I'm not even competing in Ourstage, and I'm starting to get pretty put off by the verbal tantrums.

Yes, fuck the obvious and ridiculous unfairness of this site, shut up and vote!! more $$$!!!

See my last sentence.

[Siamey]

sorry, I must have missed the part where you explained why I should give a shit if you get "put off"

[big giant circles]

I don't require you to care. You're more than free to make as much of an ass of yourself as you like. I can't do a thing about it, so party on.

[Siamey]

sweet, thanks man

[DarkeSword]

I don't require you to care. You're more than free to make as much of an ass of yourself as you like. I can't do a thing about it, so party on.

Just wanna jump in here as a moderator of the forums and say that no, nobody is really free to make as much of an ass of themselves as they like. Let's try to keep that off the forums.

I feel like I should comment on this whole deal, but to be honest I don't really care about OurStage or any of that stuff. All I will say is that comments like "fine, just ban us if you don't like it" are pretty inflammatory. By the same token, people shouldn't be trying to discourage others from posting opinions they don't agree with.

Carry on. Civilly.

[Siamey]

hahaha yea thats actually a good point. not being sarcastic btw

[Ramaniscence]

I disagree. Jill’s statement came off very hostile to me. It sounded a lot like censure to me. A ban is merely the final form of censorship. Maybe you want to take it out of this thread which is utilized for support of OCR OurStage? Fine, but don't outright end it.

Listen, I see both sides of the issues. PhiJayy is pointing out the [blatantly obvious] flaws in the system, and honestly, the nepotism is pretty thinly veiled, and even encouraged by the site proper, it appears. But you guys are leveraging the power of a community to which you have dedicated many hours to, which is also understandable. After all why not use it to gain more community exposure? The only difference is that PhiJayy is a bit more idealist, and pointing out the fallacies of the broken system. You guys are utilizing the Machine to its fullest potential in order to beat it. Not your fault the system is broken, you’re just working in it, which is why I can’t definitively agree with PhiJayy or disagree with you. I can’t say which one is right, but obviously it has spawned a discussion that has involved more than just PhiJayy, including McVaffe and Dhsu, so obviously it *is* a topic that merits further discussion. That said, comments like ‘there’s no need for drama’ and ‘you’ve made your point’ are clear-cut attempts [to me, at least] to nip any dissent at the bud. If you disagree, do so, but don’t go about it by shutting PhiJayy up.

[Tensei]

Haha, this thread.

Come on, people, at least TRY to pretend you're mature and responsible. Nobody is forcing you to vote, nobody's forcing you look at this thread and nobody's forcing you to reply. So why does everyone feel the need to threadshit?

Sure, if people want to start discussing this seriously, I'm all for it, but please cut the whiny drama queenery ( I'm not going to post here anymore, alright ban me then, BAWWWW) and the sarcastic remarks.

As I've said before, everyone's asking for votes at this point. Yes, it's a popularity contest, but that's not the fault of OCR, that's a flaw that's inherent to the contest itself.

I can see the point where rallying one's fanbase might be considered immoral, but puh-lease; I can tell you now that if any of the critics here had a song up there in the finals, they would be votewhoring like crazy too.

As for the 'It's all a huge amount of butt-kissing'- remarks: Zircon asked me politely on IRC if I could spend some time to vote, so I did that. In fact, he didn't even ask me to vote for HIS song. If it were someone like PhiJayy, I would have done the same.

Fact is, you people saying it's all a bunch of nepotism should actually LISTEN to the competition. I wasn't even planning on upvoting SGX but I ended up doing so anyway just because most of the other songs were all three/four-chord acoustic pop-crap. Out of the 48 finalists there were about 10 decent songs, and yes, all the OCR songs happened to be among those.

[Lori Cunningham]

Okay. I had to say something since I'm the topic of some of this discussion. Jillian is right, I have loved her and Andy's music for a while now. I've bought some, still plan on getting her album. Last year Jillian directed me to this site to download a couple of her songs that I really loved. I couldn't find them but that's okay. I am not saying that anybody is not a terrific musician. PhiJayy is being the spokesperson for a lot of artists on OurStage. Keep in mind that while Jayy is speaking out, and he's a great guy, he's 16. And he's not afraid to say so. So there are some experiences in life that he just hasn't had. For being only 16 and his brother 18, I think they're doing a spectacular job with their music. Now, also being 16, sometimes things aren't articulated the best, no offense Jayy.

Jayy is not saying that it's unfair just for him and his brother to post a thread like this. And he's not saying that you guys aren't great musicians. We all admitt that you are! Here's the part that seems a bit unfair - that even if, by chance, the song by an OCR remixer isn't as good as its contenders, more people will vote for it because of the "community" and how good of a promo package is being given out. Now I know this is life, welcome to the music biz. It did slap me in the face the other night when chatting in the Judges Chambers though. Two guys were judging in Techno and admitted to me that my track was better the SGx's, but they were voting for him because they wanted that free music. Once again, not fair, but it's life.

I didn't like the fact that I was #1 for 90% of the time in quarter finals and semi finals, only to be beat out in the last 10 minutes. Yes, I've asked friends and family to vote for me and on myspace. I think only about 20 people did. But here in this community, everyone is posting "Let's support the community and vote for them." It's not about who has the better track, but who's apart of this huge forum, and that's sad.

More and more artists are noticing that when it's crunch time, Zircon, Jillian, and SGX come up from behind at the last minute. I have 2 whole pages in my inbox of very livid artists writing me once they have found out about this thread. It's not a secret.

Please read this with the tone that I'm very level headed and I'm not trying to cause a scene or debate. I wanted to have my say.

[Siamey]

Zircon asked me politely on IRC if I could spend some time to vote, so I did that. In fact, he didn't even ask me to vote for HIS song.

See on the surface thats completely fine, until you realize "wait, zircon doesn't work in the advertising department of ourstage.com, nor is he responsible in any way for directing traffic to their site" That is what bugs me.

I would agree though, that most of the good songs in the 2 electronic categories are by OCR people, so that is something that needs to be taken into account before saying "9/10 of the top 10 are ocr people!!! this is a conspiracy!!"

OCR happens to be a breeding ground for good electronic musicians, so that should be expected.

words.

Yea! See, thats total balls.

[Palpable]

Fact is, you people saying it's all a bunch of nepotism should actually LISTEN to the competition. I wasn't even planning on upvoting SGX but I ended up doing so anyway just because most of the other songs were all three/four-chord acoustic pop-crap. Out of the 48 finalists there were about 10 decent songs, and yes, all the OCR songs happened to be among those.

So true. The month where I voted in the finals I was voting for Jill, Andy, and SGX because, hell, they had the best music on there. There was a lot of crap, even in the finals, and a few other good songs, but there's a reason I judge for this site. In general, I love the music made by the people that submit here.

[The wingless]

alright, so we've identified the problem. What are your plans to alleviate or even rectify the situation?

[Tensei]

Right, I'll share my thoughts on this again, as there's some new development.

Now that I've heard that the 'votewhoring' actually IS hurting non-OCR artists, I'd like to discourage people from doing it this way ("If I get this and this you can download my songs for free etc.")

IMO the OCR artists here should just encourage their fans to vote. Period. Not vote FOR them (blindly), but just encourage them to participate, if they have some free time.

At the same time, the fans should just vote for what they like personally, and not immediately reach for the 'Y IS FAR BETTER THAN X' button once Zircon or SGX shows up. Sure, it's alright to have some bias, but when I heard a sweet Melodic Death Metal song get lined up vs. one of SGX's songs I voted in favour of the Melodeath song, because I honestly preferred it! Remember, as a listener/voter, look at this as a chance to get some exposure to new songs/bands, take time to listen to songs you might potentially like, even if that means it takes more time, and you won't be able to vote for all 300000 battles.

Thing is though, doing it this way shouldn't even make THAT much of a difference for the OCR artists, since, as I stated above, most of the songs in the finals are crap, and (at least the current) OCR entries are easily top 10 material to me, so even if you do it without any bias you would be upvoting them quite a bit, while this would at the same time feel morally 'right'.

[Jillian Aversa]

As I have stated before in this thread, despite that I am a fan of sgx's music I think Lori should have won Techno this month, voted as such, and was pretty dismayed when she lost it at the very last minute. zircon was #1 in New Age/World for the greater duration of the month, as well as in the semifinals - then dropped down from #1 to #7 in the last five minutes. It can happen to anyone, unfortunately.

I also agree that enticing people with an "if I win" deal is not the most upstanding tactic, but the rest of us choose not to do it. Despite how it may seem to those on the outside, we are individuals here and make choices independently of each other.

I vote for the people whose music I think most deserves it. And yes, there are several OCR artists who are above and beyond a lot of the stuff that makes it up there. sgx and zircon are usually in that category. There are many other OCR artists that have entered in the last couple of months who have not made it to the Top 20 yet, so I don't think it's reasonable to say that the ones who do are abusing the system. They have been making FREE music for years and years, and earned every single fan by their own merits. Just like anyone with a mailing list, blog, or forum would ask for support in the contest, we do so here. It's really no different.

I also think some outsiders may not realize exactly how many people DO even vote for these artists in the finals. Conservatively, I don't think it has ever been more than 20-30 people at the MOST. That is probably even smaller than what most serious bands and artists rally up. So why does OCR suddenly get targeted? The past four months in a row have featured Just Plain Folks member wins, and the JPF forums have several threads on the topic.

I've even linked Daniel Palmer to a previous OCR thread just like this one, and his reaction was: "Thanks again for reaching out and BIG congrats on getting your fans to join in and support you." I will forward anyone the message if they're skeptical.

And do you guys remember that "new fans" contest OurStage had back in March, where they said that anyone earning 20 new fans to their club that week would be submitted to AOL Music for consideration? Well, there were half a dozen people that ranked higher than zircon and myself, and still did not place as well in the finals:

http://www.ourstage.com/profile/danielpalmer/posts/15

I genuinely hope that any skeptics will discover this information, and take it into account. We are just regular people here, doing what OurStage asks all the quarterfinals to do: get fans to vote. The end.