SLyGeN Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 This is a concept I was unfamiliar with, but it makes sense. The only thing that confused me a little bit was your example of the robot being likable for his few human traits, but then using Final Fantasy characters as another example of the peak to the left of the valley. Something about the Japanese style puts it somewhere in-between, because although they resemble humans to a much larger degree than a robot, some of their traits are completely off (big eyes, big hair, no skin texture), but we don't find them revolting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 The intro music is part of a medley made by CarboHydroM called "Penguin Cap" based on SM64 tunes, originally posted in VGMix 2 and now available in his place. http://carbohydrom.free.fr/music.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 This is a concept I was unfamiliar with, but it makes sense.The only thing that confused me a little bit was your example of the robot being likable for his few human traits, but then using Final Fantasy characters as another example of the peak to the left of the valley. Something about the Japanese style puts it somewhere in-between, because although they resemble humans to a much larger degree than a robot, some of their traits are completely off (big eyes, big hair, no skin texture), but we don't find them revolting. Final Fantasy characters are closer to the valley than a character like Mario. One of the reasons they avoid it, I think, is because they are more "anime" than "human." They aren't human characters with some anime behaviors and proportions thrown in. They are anime characters redesigned for 3D and given a few more human-like qualities. For an example, see this photoshop of a guy's face to mimic anime proportions: Absolutely dead center in the valley, right? Now see a final fantasy character: Even when they go for a semi-realistic look, Final Fantasy characters are firmly rooted in the anime tradition they came from. So while they may have more human-like proportions than a standard anime character, they don't register in our minds as imperfect simulations of humans. Does that make sense? It's tricky to explain and I'm still learning about this topic myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palpable Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Best video yet, man. Good balance of asides and tangents. I hadn't heard of the "uncanny valley" theory either, but it's something my friend and I have talked about independently for years. Thanks for putting a name to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhsu Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I hadn't heard of the "uncanny valley" theory either, but it's something my friend and I have talked about independently for years. Thanks for putting a name to it! This is a concept I was unfamiliar with, but it makes sense. And yes, I must be living under a rock 'cause I have not heard of the "Uncanny Valley" theory before, but once you started explaining it in the introduction, I understood where you were going with it games-wise. I've dabbled in this subject before without knowing there was an actual theory around it. Very nice presentation. I've never heard of the "uncanny valley" theory before, but I understood what you were getting at pretty quickly. Man ya'llz some ign'ant foos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glasfen Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Glad to see the uncanny valley explained so succinctly. Excellent points, sephire. There is something to be said about suspending one's disbelief, though, as in FF: The Spirits Within or other almost-realistic works. I think that you can overcome the valley for a time by accepting what is presented as human (ignoring the idiosyncrasies). It's not perfect, but, as long as everything else is correspondingly imperfect, it works. I suppose this amounts to viewing the unnaturalness as stylistic. Just my opinion, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 I actually had another thought in regard to Slygen's post about Final Fantasy characters. Although I don't find the anime-based Final Fantasy characters "uncanny," I'm often put off by attempts to perfectly recreate the anime style in 3D. The character faces tend to look so off and lifeless. Perhaps the valley doesn't just apply to imperfect recreations of realism, but also imperfect recreations of stylization as well. Has anyone else noticed this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palpable Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I actually had another thought in regard to Slygen's post about Final Fantasy characters.Although I don't find the anime-based Final Fantasy characters "uncanny," I'm often put off by attempts to perfectly recreate the anime style in 3D. The character faces tend to look so off and lifeless. Perhaps the valley doesn't just apply to imperfect recreations of realism, but also imperfect recreations of stylization as well. Has anyone else noticed this before? I've never thought of Final Fantasy trying to recreate an anime style as much as borrow from it. You're right that they're definitely not going for a strictly realistic look, but I don't think it's nearly as energetic or caricatured as anime, even the more serious anime. I don't really know what they're trying to go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arek the Absolute Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Really well done! Loved it. Educational and humorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avaris Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Great stuff dude! You could almost do another video based off the same topic and developing games for high-end next gen consoles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halc Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 awesome video man btw that outro music is hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadofsky Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Bravo! Very enjoyable! For some reason, your voice and character reminded me of Yakko on Animaniacs... But your lecture was great. Though I do admit, I thought that Final Fantasy looked pretty real, but just as you had said, it didn't look that realistic. The Incredibles is a good example because no CG movie besides Final Fantasy came close to emulating realism with people. But I still feel that they have a long way to go. Beowulf, for example. Gorgeous movie (I'll refrain from story, because honestly it was horrible), but there were parts I would still say, it's fake. Of course, I tried to keep that kind of thinking at a minimum to not hamper the experience. But I like the examples of characters you used, like Jade from BG&E, or Aki from Final Fantasy. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLyGeN Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Does that make sense? It's tricky to explain and I'm still learning about this topic myself. Yeah, I see what you mean. It makes sense. Man ya'llz some ign'ant foos. D: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Author Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I'd like to do one on copyright protection and DRM eventually, but I'm not really sure what my next one will be. Portnow might have some ideas. If I may suggest: Journalistic integrity in videogame reviews/review websites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephfire Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 If I may suggest: Journalistic integrity in videogame reviews/review websites. If Portnow wanted to write something on the issue, I'd be game for it, but man I could see that getting ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coop Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 If Portnow wanted to write something on the issue, I'd be game for it, but man I could see that getting ugly. Not really. One aspect that can be delved into is if a reviewer did a good job telling the reader what the game's about, what flaws are in the game, etc. If you want a prime example of how not to review a game, look at gamespot's and IGN's reviews for Taito Legends 2 on the PS2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnowhathuh Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I for one had no idea what the hell an Uncanny Valley was....anyways, nice work again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.B. Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Your work is so very, very good. And thank you for posting here so newbs (yes, I am that old... I guess) like me can stumble upon it. Interesting theory, especially on the philosophical level. But, to be honest, I don't think this applies to gaming. Mori's postulate is based on simulating the real, as he did with robotics, whereas the gaming industry seeks to achieve the hyper-real. Should anyone doubt this, ask yourself if you would want to play a game where you spend a half hour buying groceries and waiting at the checkout counter. Right, not a chance. You want to get to the part where you do something, well, interesting! Everyone, barring very young children, knows that games are not real. This is prior knowledge. So when a game verges on simulating the real but falls short in some respect, the gamer is not startled or horrified as someone might be if they suddenly realized that they were shaking hands with an android and not a human (I'm borrowing heavily from Mori's writings in this example). I contend that gaming will never go past the intial 'peak' in Mori's graph because the gamer will always be cognizant that the game is, in fact, fake. Any hangup, such as the awkward movement of an otherwise seemingly-real character, will always be an annoyance, never a downfall of reality. There is no reality; there is only simulacra. So if companies want to continue making games look more and more real (ahem, hyper-real), I say they should go for it! I don't think they have to fear anyone becoming repulsed at a near-likeness. It's simply a matter of return-on-investment, and at some point it won't pay to make a game look any more real. If any of this sounded overly critical I apologize. I only investigated this because of your video. And yes, I am another among the horde who had not heard of this concept before, so I again thank you for enlightening me. Your videos rock - once I watched one I had to watch the rest. I concur with Stargem. But I must say, I've seen Pooh twice in your videos, but Tigger not once. You need more Tigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalzon Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 The Uncanny Valley applies to games a little differently, yes. It's not always something that the player themselves will notice. But when the game has realistic graphics but unrealistic (read: bad) animations, texturing, or what-have-you, then the appeal of the game overall is going to go down. Final Fantasy X is a perfect example. While many find the gameplay fun, I think everyone who's played it can agree that when Tidus makes a toothy grin (CG scenes of him underwater tend to be where he does this) his grin is odd and strained, and has been noted as being "zombie-like". It doesn't help the first time this happens is supposed to be a really touching moment where he swims with Yuna in a lake. Really rips you back to reality. BRAAAAAINS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.B. Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Really rips you back to reality. Touche. I hadn't even considered the suspension of disbelief, which I guess we have to do to a certain extent, more so with story-driven games but at least a bit with all games. So yeah, nevermind. I'm gonna go eat some pizza now, and I hope I do a better job of that than I seem to do with philosophical arguments. If not, I will ocr fifty bucks (null and void after successful devouring of said pizza). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 SHIT-EATING GRIN. fix'd also what the hell, is there a minimum number of letters you need in posts now? Quotes don't count towards it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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