Heroes of Newerth

[zircon]

The Shaman we played against earlier was SICK with it. He saved himself and his teammates over and over, the high point being a chase between 3 of us vs him and Witch Slayer running away. Witch was running past Legion ancients and about to die with me close behind him, but DSham (running down the lane itself) hit him with the tablet and sent him OVER THE LEDGE! It was awesome. Well, for them.

[Dhsu]

Actually, yes, I wish they would.

Who's up for an in-house DotA Allstars night?

[Tensei]

Who's up for an in-house DotA Allstars night?

I'd fuckin love to but apparently I'm the only person in existence who doesn't have an old copy of WC3 with the expansion lying around and I can't find the Battlechest anywhere (in stores) either. Maybe after I get some money on my paypal again, but that'll take at least a week.

[eternal Zero]

I, too, would be very interested. Especially since I have not been keeping up with the DotA changes. Also if we do I'd like to use the GArena client because I don't own legit WC3 copies.

[Dhsu]

I'm okay with using GArena, but if you guys want legit copies:

http://www.g2buy.com/index.php?gOo=goods_search_list.dwt&gcat=1905

Or at least legit as far as I can tell. Who knows, maybe you're just paying for an auto-generated key, but it worked for me, I haven't gotten banned, and I've never heard anybody else having any problems.

[Tensei]

This has to be posted:

[Ajax]

Who's up for an in-house DotA Allstars night?

Yay, then we could play DM! DM is the only thing that gets me pining after DotA.

Heck, I think I could even dust off my install of Ghost++ without too much effort.

Of course, I haven't played much DotA since 6.64, so I'm unfamiliar with the new heroes and items.

[Tensei]

Oh wow...

[Dhsu]

Hahahaha win.

[zircon]

By the way, Harkon's Puppet with Doombringer is hilarious.

[Dhsu]

Yay, then we could play DM! DM is the only thing that gets me pining after DotA.

Heck, I think I could even dust off my install of Ghost++ without too much effort.

Of course, I haven't played much DotA since 6.64, so I'm unfamiliar with the new heroes and items.

I think HoN actually has Deathmatch mode. I wouldn't mind trying it sometime.

[Tensei]

~TIER TIME!!~

God tier - Always pick these heroes if given the opportunity. Always ban them if the opposing team could have access.

S tier - Powerful, versatile characters that have significant utility. Try to fill your team with these.

A tier - Good heroes that can do one thing very well (perhaps on an S-tier level) but don't quite have as much overall utility as S-tiers. For example, Pollywog Priest is a great disabler. However, Succubus is an even better disabler, plus she has more lane staying power. Pandamonium and Rampage are solid STR carries with good stunning capabilities, but Pestilence offers more power overall.

B tier - Average picks. These may be competitive with the above tiers under circumstances, but cannot be thrown into any lineup. Generally these guys are mixed bags. For example, Swiftblade is a pretty good carry, but pales in comparison to Madman or the Dark Lady. Nymphora has some good potential but needs to be with the right heroes. Electrician counters Jeraziah, but doesn't offer a great deal to teamfights.

C tier - Below-average picks. Certainly capable of filling specific roles, but they have 1-2 "deadweight" or underpowered abilities, or are very easily countered. For example, Night Hound's Ult makes him invisible, but wards, dust, eyes and Pestilence's ult will reveal him. Keeper's ult is comparable to Tempest's, but not quite as good, his eyes are easily countered, and his self-damage buff is a waste.

D tier - Severely underpowered heroes. These guys require significant farm to be effective or are simply extremely hard to play properly. There is little reason to pick them over higher tier heroes.

God: Demented Shaman, Plague Rider, Hellbringer

S: Tempest, Jeraziah, Deadwood, Behemoth, Pestilence, Witch Slayer, Valkyrie, Succubus, Soul Reaper, Pharaoh, Magebane, Forsaken Archer, Puppet Master, Wretched Hag, Pebbles, Pyromancer, Zephyr, Chronos, Ophelia, Magmus

A: Kraken, Madman, Sand Wraith, Legionnaire, Scout, Pandamonium, Electrician, Soulstealer, Defiler, Torturer, Accursed, Glacius, Hammerstorm, Corrupted Disciple, Predator, Engineer, Thunderbringer, Slither, Swiftblade, Blacksmith

B: The Dark Lady, Maliken, Pollywog Priest, Vindicator, Nymphora, Blood Hunter, Wildsoul, Andromeda, Voodoo Jester, Moonqueen, Devourer, Nighthound, Keeper of the Forest

C: Armadon, Warbeast

D: Rampage

Means the hero dropped a tier or two since the last list

Means the hero was previously unranked or went up in the tier list

Explanation/Justification:

Most of the traditional 'god tier' heroes have lost their sheen: Tempest is easy to counterpick with popular heroes like Pharaoh, Vindicator and Hellbringer, not to mention that Tablet of Command is starting to slowly see more play. Jeraziah gets overshadowed by Accursed in general utility, lane/team synergy and because of the sudden viability of Electrician. Deadwood, while still a very strong ganker and solo mid hero, is no longer as much of a powerhouse due to the significant armor nerf, which makes him a lot more vulnerable to harassment. Behemoth, while still being arguably the best initiator in the game, never truly was god tier in my opinion, and you'll often see Pharaoh getting picked as an initiator over him due to the greater flexibility in lane options and additional roles he can fulfill (dedicated solo-ganker, puzzlebox/barrier idol carrier).

The new god tier is composed entirely of support heroes, each of which can make or break a team; Dsham still has MASSIVE lane presence and will often be capable of allowing the carry that's paired up with him to freefarm. His ult is gamebreaking with the right team synergy (additional -armor heroes, or just teams heavy on physical dps in general), and he can push lanes very fast if necessary. Plague Rider is arguably the only true counter to so-called negative armor teams, as with the proper item build he'll be able to not only nullify most of the armor reduction, but also make life very hard for any physical DPS-based carry. Hellbringer really shouldn't need further introduction as he has it all: Massive AoE damage, synergy with any AoE magic DPS teams, strong lane presence, HUGE stat gain that allows him to tank like crazy as well as limited carry potential.

Moving on to S-tier, Chronos is without a doubt the very best "hard"-carry in the game right now. Already a force to be reckoned with in midgame, the guaranteed five seconds of free attacking give him an incredible advantage over any other carry in lategame. Zephyr is a beastly semi-carry that combines huge tanking potential with massive AoE DPS and strong farming. Pyromancer was already a powerful ganker, but his new DoT makes him a strong towerpusher as well, and gives him decent auto-attack DPS on top of his nukes.

Madman and Sandwraith used to be the best carries, but are just getting outperformed by the newly buffed heroes. Madman dropped a tier because Chronos' mid and earlygame effectiveness are almost as good, but his CC throughout all the game is way above anything that Madman could ever hope to achieve. Sandwraiths traditional tank build gets countered significantly by Idol/Headdress, so he's often forced to go some pseudo-DPS build that in the end doesn't make him as unkillable as he used to be.

The rest should be pretty self-explanatory.

[Rambo]

Did Ophelia receive a buff? Or did she move up because more people know how to use her effectively now.

[BardicKnowledge]

I feel that Rampage and Warbeast are equally shitty, as both are easy prey to single target stuns, and neither bring a lot to teamfights. Rampage is better inlane than Warbeast is in jungle because of his massive earlygame damage, but both chars suck it up lategame and have little utility.

[Tensei]

Ophelia was never bad. I decided she should be judged on potential and not on general player skill, and she's definitely a top tier hero provided one can play her.

Also I have Warcraft 3 now so if anyone wants to get that DotA Allstars game going through Garena I'd totally be up for it.

Warbeast has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more farming, DPS potential and chasing than Rampage. Let warbeast freefarm for 20 minutes and he'll stomp your face in, let rampage freefarm for 20 minutes and uhhh..He will have his boots and maybe a part of shrunken head. He doesn't actually have any skills that help him farm. I don't see how you can say Warbeast 'sucks it up' lategame though...

[BardicKnowledge]

I don't see how you can say Warbeast 'sucks it up' lategame though...

Outside of someone picking WB during inhouse games where we all suck, I've never seen a warbeast get any items to make him compete lategame. His early game gets shut down so completely by warding the jungle because he's terrible inlane. Stick two wards in the jungle and he's screwed...not to mention that he lacks an early stun and therefore is easy to gank early. As we discussed in chat, the other jungle heroes can do decently (if not as much) either solo mid or inlane.

[Ajax]

I think HoN actually has Deathmatch mode. I wouldn't mind trying it sometime.

HoN only appears to have a Deathmatch mode, it actually isn't implemented yet, and defaults to normal mode if you try to select it.

If only S2 would realize that one of the best modes is not available and put more priority on implementing it.

[Nase]

bahamut...i encourage you to watch the replay of that game where i was engi.

due to lack of a mic i can't defend myself well ingame.

some things to pay attention to:

magmus, my lane partner, early game.

the way shaman and scout worked together.

then, in particular, that point where you did your hb ult, died, and accused me of not landing a stun, saying i had a time frame.

somehow, 25 minutes in, the consensus was that i made us lose, partly because i didn't buy wards AND dust early on. as if i was the only support hero in that game.

I certainly didn't play well at all (ping didn't help), but didn't see myself feeding much either (compared to others).

this dynamic of everyone deciding on a scapegoat just pisses me off. Learn to take responsibility.

[Rambo]

bahamut...i encourage you to watch the replay of that game where i was engi.

due to lack of a mic i can't defend myself well ingame.

some things to pay attention to:

magmus, my lane partner, early game.

the way shaman and scout worked together.

then, in particular, that point where you did your hb ult, died, and accused me of not landing a stun, saying i had a time frame.

somehow, 25 minutes in, the consensus was that i made us lose, partly because i didn't buy wards AND dust early on. as if i was the only support hero in that game.

I certainly didn't play well at all (ping didn't help), but didn't see myself feeding much either (compared to others).

this dynamic of everyone deciding on a scapegoat just pisses me off. Learn to take responsibility.

Whoa sounds like HoN

[LuketheXjesse]

this dynamic of everyone deciding on a scapegoat just pisses me off. Learn to take responsibility.

Yeah, uh, you might want to get used to that.

Partly the reason why I don't play anymore.

[zircon]

Outside of someone picking WB during inhouse games where we all suck, I've never seen a warbeast get any items to make him compete lategame. His early game gets shut down so completely by warding the jungle because he's terrible inlane. Stick two wards in the jungle and he's screwed...not to mention that he lacks an early stun and therefore is easy to gank early. As we discussed in chat, the other jungle heroes can do decently (if not as much) either solo mid or inlane.

I've played a pretty solid Warbeast in recent games. I turned this one around basically entirely on my own:

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=26489497

They had two strong lategame carries and our Pyro died over and over throughout the game. However, my farm became so insane that at the end of the game, I was able to annihilate their base and any of their heroes in about 2 seconds. They actually killed me twice at level 25, I bought back both times, and ended up with 8800 gold (not a typo) at the end because I had bought literally every item I possibly could. 400+ damage, max MSPD, magic immune, unslowable, near-max ASPD = death.

One really nice thing about him is his ability to use his dogs to kill at least 2 camps even if he is defending or chilling in the base. There was almost never a time when I was NOT using my dogs for that, and it was very effective at times when we didn't know where the enemy was and couldn't move out to farm lanes.

[Tensei]

I've played a pretty solid Warbeast in recent games. I turned this one around basically entirely on my own:

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=26489497

They had two strong lategame carries and our Pyro died over and over throughout the game. However, my farm became so insane that at the end of the game, I was able to annihilate their base and any of their heroes in about 2 seconds. They actually killed me twice at level 25, I bought back both times, and ended up with 8800 gold (not a typo) at the end because I had bought literally every item I possibly could. 400+ damage, max MSPD, magic immune, unslowable, near-max ASPD = death.

One really nice thing about him is his ability to use his dogs to kill at least 2 camps even if he is defending or chilling in the base. There was almost never a time when I was NOT using my dogs for that, and it was very effective at times when we didn't know where the enemy was and couldn't move out to farm lanes.

I notice you only went 12/8 k/d. Might I suggest the Whispering Helm/Puzzlebox build next time?

[zircon]

Yeah the early part of the game was terrible. Absolutely no wards on my team at all until about 40 minutes in, no MIA calls, etc. so it was very rough. They were like 10-15 kills ahead for most of the game. The big problem was the number of stuns; it was hard to chase due to DW stun, hammer stun, witch stun, madman stun....

[Tensei]

They had better be cooking up something really big (new interface/heroes?) for next patch since we've already gone two weeks without a patch.

In the meantime, time for a scout miniguide! Based on recent competitive Scout builds.

Hero Role: Single-target physical DPS hardcarry, lategame pusher/sologanker.

Scout's strength lies in the fact that he has some of the fastest and safest farm in the game, essentially allowing him to outcarry many other heroes purely because of the insanely high GPM potential. There's two viable builds, the first being the more competitive one, with the latter more suited for a solo mid position in lower level games.

Skill build(Map control/late ult build):

1. Electric Eye

2. Vanish

3. Electric Eye

4. Vanish

5. Vanish

6. Electric Eye

7. Vanish

8. Electric Eye

9. Electric Eye

10-14. Disarm

15-17. Marksman Shot

18-25. Stats

The ultimate build for pure ricing. It focuses on attaining complete map control ASAP, basically allowing you to freefarm far past the river. Disarm and Marksman shot aren't taken until later because of the full-on hardcarry nature of this build, so you really shouldn't be ganking before getting your core items. Marksman Shot itself isn't that useful against players that know what they're doing, as it's quite easy to juke, costs tons of mana, and can even be TP'd out of.

Lane: Legion bot/Hellbourne top, with a babysitter (preferably Demented Shaman).

Skill build(Solo Mid/Ganking build):

1. Electric Eye

2. Vanish

3. Vanish

4. Disarm

5. Vanish

6. Marksman Shot

7. Vanish

8. Disarm

9. Disarm

10. Disarm

11. Marksman Shot

12-14. Electric Eye

15. Stats

16. Marksman Shot

17-25. Stats

Disarm, Vanish and Marksman Shot give you the necessary burst damage to gank sidelanes and most likely win mid. The idea is to creep tug a lot, maintain rune control (which is easy), and generally make it hard for the mid lane to gank the sidelanes. It's not ideal, but Scout handles himself fine in mid.

Items:

- Logger's Hatchet, minor totems (or buckler against strong ranged harassers/solo mid), health potion, runes of blight.

- Bottle (optional, if solo mid)

- Lifetube-> Runed Axe (Before 20 mins)

- Marchers-> Steamboots (Before 25 mins)

- Whispering Helm (Optional, for solo Kongor potential, before 30 mins)

- Shieldbreaker/Frostburn (Situational, before 35 mins, don't get both)

- Savage Mace (~40ish mins)

- Symbol of Rage?

- WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY.

Earlygame:

Rush a lifetube, get it before your regen items run out. It will allow you to stay inlane pretty much indefinitely and be a lot more indifferent to ranged harass. You're rushing a runed axe in favor of even marchers, with the final deadline for it being the 20 minute mark. If you manage to get it before 15 minutes, the incredible boost it gives to your farm will speed the rate at which you get your other items by 10-15 minutes.

Depending on the skill level of the enemy team, use your first electric eye either to ward the rune or counterward your pull spot.

Whenever you get additional levels in electric eye, place them at spots that enemy heroes would HAVE to pass if they were coming to gank you, but save one electric eye for clutch situations where you need the silence to interrupt a channel or save your lanemate.

Midgame:

Max out your farming by TPing to pushed lanes, stacking/pulling neutrals, and hitting both ancient spawns whenever they're up. With whispering helm, runed axe, and steamboots, soloing Kongor around level 13 is very doable. Maintain map control by placing eyes at every lane you're farming from, to prevent getting ganked. Your team should be playing a turtle-based strategy, defending each tower with powerful ultimates from the likes of Behemoth, Magmus, Plague Rider, KotF and Kraken, allowing you to freefarm and solo counterpush in case one of your towers starts getting pushed. Avoid team battles unless you're positive your team can't hold out 4v5 and you can get some easy kills. Trading towers is an advantage for you, and often a better alternative to TPing back to defend (as that's something Scout is terrible at). If the enemy team doesn't push but tries to turtle as well, prepare for a boring game where you simply outfarm their carry completely.

For your 'main' item, pick shieldbreaker if you have a well-balanced, CC-heavy team that requires more burst DPS, but go for Frostburn if your team lacks disables and you're required to chase down enemy heroes yourself.

Lategame:

This is where scout really starts to shine. Solo-gank anyone that dares to push even a bit, and immediately counter with a towerkill, making use of the 5v4 situation. Don't be hesitant to backdoor and be sure to grab every Kongor kill. If you're already outfarming the enemy team completely, and you're actually having trouble dying because of the tokens, skip Savage Mace in favor of a Doombringer or two. Keep the pressure on by pushing multiple lanes and getting towers before the enemy team has the chance to respond.

Farming:

Set up eyes at every chokepoint that enemy heroes need to pass to get to you and vanish once you see them coming for a gank. A vanish+ runed axe combo takes down a creepwave almost as fast as TDL's charge/blades combo.

Ganking:

DO NOT OPEN WITH YOUR ULT. Set up your eyes strategically to maintain vision, flurry out of vanish, silence, and ult. Try to use your ult only if you have some insurance that you can maintain vision of the enemy hero (like one of your teammates chasing after him). If you're chasing down someone, try running way in front of them, then ulting. They won't know your position due to invis, and chances are they will continue running in the hopes of running out of range, because they'll assume you're behind them rather than in front of them.

Teamfights:

Let's face it, scout isn't amazing in teamfights. What you should focus on is turning the teambattle into an advantageous 5v4 situation asap, by following up your initiator with high single-target DPS that should allow you to take down a squishy hero or two before your silence runs out. Your main power in teamfights comes from the map awareness provided by Vanish/Eye that allows your initiator to line up a perfect shot.

Dealing with Scout counters:

- Bound Eye: Not as bad as it may seem, this only means that you can't rely purely on your Vanish to escape ganks (which you shouldn't be doing in the first place), and you can't give your initiator vision by hanging around the enemy team while vanished (though eyes still work). With properly set up eyes, you should be able to just hightail it out of sticky situations before the carrier even comes in range. Your insanely high single-target DPS allows you to prioritize the eye carrier and take him out first in teambattles.

- Dust: Only a problem after a losing teamfight when you're getting chased down. You can often just juke with your high mspd, and wait until it runs out in such a case. It shouldn't really be a problem when the enemy team is trying to gank you, as, again, your map awareness with eyes will give them away before they even get in range.

- Wards of Revelation: Can be counterwarded with eyes. If the enemy team is using them in a push, the same rules apply as with Bound eye; don't hang around the enemy team until after the initiation.

- Pestilence: An overrated counter. He can only target you AFTER you go out of invis. Unfortunately for him, he will probably be silenced + dead when that happens.

- Arachna: The ult (which reveals you) can be flurried to death. She has no escape mechanisms herself and terribly low HP, so she's basically gank-food for Scout.

- Blood Hunter: Unless he's outfarming you by a lot, you will OFTEN just be able to tank his ult, and outDPS his auto-attacks with disarm+ the damage boost from his silence.

[MaxFrost]

So I've been playing a lot more recently, and although I'm not sure if I've improved any, I do know that I know the mechanics of the game better, and also know exactly where I screw up now instead of going "what the hell just happened?"

I still have a tendency to play tryhard support, but I've been playing more tank/initiator types, as they seem to suit me and my tendency to rush into fights too soon well. I do know there have been several games of late where I didn't feel like I was the cause of our loss, and that I actually had a hand in my team winning the match. I haven't carried a team to victory yet, mostly because my mid-late game is still needing work, but I feel as though I've learned a lot in the past month.

And for the record, I suck balls with Hammerstorm. Don't ever ask me to play him, ever. Stick me with pyro or deadwood instead...at least with those heroes I'll stand a chance.